The much awaited interview with Ernie Gruen.
February 17, 2008 by devinasheville
3. We know that Kansas City Fellowship taught about a new breed i.e. the omega generation. Would you mind expounding on it a bit? Also do you think they have ceased teaching on this doctrine?
They will not quit teaching any doctrine that makes them “elitist”.
4. Did you truly exonerate Paul Cain from all your previous accusations, if so would you mind telling us what changed your mind?
Mike Bickle himself exposed and discredited him. http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel19.html
5. Did you really apologize to Mr. Bickle for the accusations you made in your report?
This fabrication that I apologized, spread by Mike Bickle and/or his I-hop staff, is a total lie. I never apologized to him–you do not apologize for exposing false prophets and telling the truth.
6. Do you think that John Wimber’s covering addressed the problems you spoke of in your report?
The elders of Full Faith Church agreed to stop sending out the “Aberrant Document” for two reasons: one, John Wimber said he would “clean up the mess at KCF” and provide oversight, and secondly to restore unity in the city. However, before Wimber died, he phoned me and said “I was right all the time in the ‘Aberrant Document’ and that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickle.” The proof that this phone call occurred is that at this point KCF quit calling themselves “Metro-Vineyard,” and removed themselves from his covering.
7. Do you think that the international house of prayer is spiritually dangerous, if so what concerns you the most?
Please read an excerpt from an e-mail I received this week, with the name withheld:
“Last year I attended an internship at the I.H.O.P. called “Fire in the Night” . . . We had a class called the “Prophetic History” class where in it we listened to audio tapes of Mike Bickle’s experiences in the super-natural realm and prophecies of Bob Jones, Paul Cain . . . After some meetings with the leadership there I decided to leave the program. I was led to the report you had written about the Kansas City Prophets and Mike Bickle exposing them for their lies. After reading this report I was even more disturbed because of its content. I took what I had read back to the leadership at I.H.O.P. and presented it to them asking them if this, “the report you wrote” was true?
They then told me that it was not true and that you had made a public apology to Mike and others for having written it. The leader I spoke to said he was there to witness these things taking place. I wasn’t sure if he was telling the truth so I wanted to ask you a couple of questions personally.”
I challenge Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staff to remove this so-called leader for telling a whopper of a lie!
1 Cor 3:11–For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ (NKJV)
Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs have built their entire foundation on two discredited false prophets.
8. If there was any advice you could give to someone who is considering worshipping at I.H.O.P. what would it be?
Thoroughly read and study these two documents and then pray and make your own decision:
a) The original “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship.
http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html
b) Paul Cain discredited by Mike Bickle:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel19.html
9. Do you feel that the stand you took was worth it? Absolutely!
10. Why did you stop circulating the report? See answer in question #6.
Though Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs unethically look for any reason to slander me, the personal situation involving me occurred several years after the “Aberrant Document” was released. It had and has no relationship to the contents of the document or its release whatsoever.
Thank you, Pastor Gruen, for your comments. Thank you GreyCoats for your initiative to arrange this interview.
And there it is everyone. The long awaited response to our interview questions. Thank you Pastor Gruen for your gracious reply and I’m sure all of our readers share this sentiment with me.
To the IHOP apologists,
Pastor Gruen said, “Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs have built their entire foundation on two discredited false prophets.”
—————————-
It saddens me. But this is the watershed issue. It is not possible to separate IHOP from its false prophecies and false prophets. The Gruen report clearly documents this from the inception, and Mike Bickle’s teaching notes from as late as last week confirm IHOP’s present commitment to the same false prophetic practices. They are inseparable. This thread of error is unbroken from the beginning to the present day.
It is impossible to accept the good, ignore the error and maintain intellectual honesty. Personal integrity is lost with a head-in-the-sand response.
[...] has responded to some questions e-mailed to him by The Grey Coats in this post that is definately worth [...]
Thank you guys for doing this and thank you Mr. Gruen for your compliance.
mark jr.
[...] recommend thier recent post which has the above mentioned [...]
thank you pastor Gruen for your response to our questions. this goes out to all who will come and say we are slanderers and such. read the report. we have positively verified that the author of the report is not sorry and still holds the info within to be true. deal with the info within the reptort itself. Get some answers to its accusations and dont accept the old ernie said he was sorry bit. it just wont fly no mo. to all who will say “i saw ernie recant” i say show me the money. says here that he didnt. and to all who say our case wont hold up. i say this: study the law my man. this is eye witness testimony not hearsay. i give this challenge to all pro ihopers who come to this site. Show me dont tell me. the offer still stands if you have verify able proof that this stuff is not true that Gruen recanted then PROVE IT! and no your word is not enough you gotta have real solid proof a letter a tape a video or somthin else of that sort . until then i will not so much as move one period from this site. but if you do prove us wrong then i will remove all that we have posted with my sincerest apologies. so here it stands prove us wrong until then we have it straight from the horses mouth so to speak.
O the lengths people will go to to avoid carnage. I lied once to my girlfriend and that resulted in more carnage. I wonder if thats an alligorical foresight. I digress.
Repent Mr. Bikle, or the IHOP representative that stated these lies of gruens recantation, being a decietful deciever gets us no where.
hmm. i have heard this somewhere before.
As surely as the great STAR shines in the MORNING, this case is closed, whose next?
Yes it’s a loaded question; I couldn’t resist.
w/luv,
grrr
IHOP it is now up to you. There is no assurance that Pastor Gruen is himself not lying, not impossible with man, but he is becoming more creditable then you are at this point. I would hope that someone from your organization would come out and address all of this so as to put it to rest once and for all. If you feel that it will never be able to be put to rest then I say your trust in the Father is not large enough. This goes way past issues a few bloggers have with your organization. It goes to the heart of our Christian faith and the integrity of walking out that faith in the most upright manor possible to a corrupt world. If you don’t want to deal with this openly then at least contact someone from here personally and begin dialog. It is important on numerous levels that this is put to rest.
we agree on somthing finally.
Did anyone actually read what Mr. Gruen said in response to question six?!
“However, before Wimber died, he phoned me and said “I was right all the time in the ‘Aberrant Document’ and that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickle.” The proof that this phone call occurred is that at this point KCF quit calling themselves “Metro-Vineyard,” and removed themselves from his covering.”
If this is true, which I have no reason to doubt at this point, then the entire foundation of the movement has been discredited by the admissions of the very men who started it and helped it along!
IF:
(1) Ernie Gruen has never recanted his 237 page endictment;
(2) John Wimber agreed with what Mr. Gruen had to say (one of the main points: Bob Jones as possible demonic false prophet); and
(3) Rick Joyner, Jack Deere, and Mike Bickle exposed Paul Cain’s unrepentant homosexual and drunken lifestyle;
THEN:
(1) The Kansas City Prophets have been discredited from within;
(2) The beginning and middle of Mike Bickle’s ministry in Kansas City involved abberrant practices fueled by the visions and dreams of at least two depraved diviners–or worse if demons were at work; and
(3) Mike Bickle’s current “ministry” in Kansas City has the above as the foundation for its operation and vision for the future. (the “Prophetic History” is still required listening for interns and the “prophetic” visions of Bob Jones and Paul Cain are still an integral part of what goes on at IHOP)
May God help us all! May He wake us all up to the ways in which we are deceived!
If you get another opportunity to do another e-mail question and answer session, ask Ernie this question:
What are his thoughts about John Wimber the individual man and what are his thoughts about John Wimber’s legacy?
—–
The reason why I asked this was based on Gruen’s response to question #6.
It has been a little over ten years since Wimber died from a brain hemorrhage. Wimber’s legacy will be eternally debated by Christians and religious scholars alike. Some see him as the ‘revolutionary new-era reformer’ and many who knew him personally that I have e-mailed with this same question stated that he had a very deep Reformed mindset while having a zeal for seeing signs and wonders and the gifts of the Holy Spirit at work.
Some (like me) see him as the man of noble and pure intent whose ‘evangelical experiements’ went haywire and created monsters known as:
KCP - Bickle - IHOP
New Apostolic Reformation - Wagner - Jacobs - Sheets - Pierce
Toronto - Brownsville - Smithton - Elijah List - Riverites
that continue to roam throughout Christianity today.
Some see him as the man like Eli in the Old Testament who could lead but could not bring back into correction the children (’splinter factions’) birthed from the Vineyard seed.
Some see him as the forerunner of ‘rebellion’ that took the ‘rebellion’ of the Jesus Freak movement into a new era and brought forth Calvary Chapel. While some see him as ‘heretic’ and some see him as ‘traitor’ because of what happened in Toronto.
I would like to hear more of your thoughts on Wimber. What are your sources? The “very deep Reformed mindset” of Wimber is surprising. That perspective is off of my radar screen. Interesting.
If this is true, which I have no reason to doubt at this point, then the entire foundation of the movement has been discredited by the admissions of the very men who started it and helped it along!
I called my husband over and read this to him and I said almost the same thing!!
Im curious a bit about Wimber’s beleifs in his final days now.
f
Sorry about that.
Are we sure these interviews are real? Just a thought from an outsider looking in.
The source was comments by a guy named “Brad” when I wrote this article on my blog back in 2004:
http://availablelightonline.com/blog/2004/11/03/im-leaving-the-prophetic-movement/
Brad left two comments (numbers 4 and 5) that discussed this (maybe I mis-interpreted his comments). He then wrote on his own blog two interesting posts:
http://21stcenturyreformation.blogspot.com/2004/11/weird-or-winsome-my-expereince-with-kc.html
http://21stcenturyreformation.blogspot.com/2004/11/winsome-indeed-importance-of-theology.html
—–
I also discovered this .pdf online that may be of interest.
http://members.cox.net/presencepowered/Ken%20Blue_Lessons%20Learned.pdf
Jim,
Havent they already covered that question from you?
Sorry I clicked too soon:
I forgot to answer your question about my feelings on Wimber.
I had stated in an earlier post that
—–
Some (like me) see him as the man of noble and pure intent whose ‘evangelical experiements’ went haywire and created monsters known as:……
—–
I really believe he was genuinely interested in a core theology similar to the Reformed mindset with the heavy emphasis (sometimes over emphasized) on Signs and Wonders. However, in his ‘anticipation’, I believed he got anxious and ‘jumped the gun’ in the area of the signs and wonders. The Toronto Blessing was one example.
I remember in 1996, Peter Jennings of ABC news did a show entitled “Peter Jennings Reporting: In the Name of God” that featured Wimber (trying to find YouTube footage but not successful at this time) and Wimber came across as very astute and solid with the Bible and among the other pastors featured, Wimber came across as the most rational of all of them. Wimber also stated in that same interview”
“I love Jesus. I love the stuff He did. I love the multiplying
of the food and the healing of the sick, giving sight to the blind, spitting in people’s eyes. I love that stuff!”
The Toronto Blessing is another different subject altogether.
jim
the interview is real. if we are posting lies on purpose then we are akin to devils. i hope that is not what you are suggesting. but even if it is. the Lord knows the interview is real and i think we have a good amount of credibility . so there ya go.
jim
you could do something real zany and email ernie gruen.
One of the bitterest and most ironic false predictions was about Wimber himself. The prophets told us repeatedly that John was the end-time Apostle who would lead the church into its glorious future. To his credit, John rejected this. The fact that he died prematurely with his influence in decline around the world, largely because of his association with the prophets, is especially sad to me.
This is a quote from the PDF file that is linked by Onward, Forward, Toward… in the above post.
I am inclined to believe that this statement may well support the response from Pastor Gruen and the interview he gace to “thegreycoats”, specifically question #6.
So that is the real question. Is the prophetic movement in decline? Gruen has stated himself that they shift shape fairly often in regard to leadership and nomenclature. Opportunists survive, that is why they are called opportunists. Wimber’s influence may have waned in the wider Evangelical community before he died, but has his legacy been hijacked by prophetic pretenders just as surely as they’ve commandeered Wayne Grudem’s scholarship? If Neo-Montanists refer to Wimber for credibility (as they’ve shown to be true on Wikipedia for sure) then perhaps they have made another error which requires a reckoning. Within the various sects of Neo-Montanism John Wimber’s support of the KCF is still referred to; if the movement is in decline then they are searching for another mainstream leader to lend credibility to their heterodoxy. Who will be next? And is there another Ernie Gruen standing by witnessing the entire mess–a fed up insider who sees error and names it? We will see.
Natrimony,
I don’t have a historical perspective on this. I’ve only been aware of this in the last year or so, but I wonder if the prophetic movement is in decline. I suspect that rather than waning it is adapting and alive as ever. I would propose that the prayer and worship movement, predominantly targeting the youth of today, is the offspring of the prophetic movement. This is a bit more “acceptable” to the church at large and harder to speak against. Yet at its core, this movement appears to be shifting the epistemological framework of a significant portion of the next generation of Christian leaders away from the propositional truth of scripture to the experiential truth of a kind of Christian existentialism. IHOP, The Call, OneThing, The Ramp, etc. are examples. Many of these groups call young people to valid and noble goals. And frankly, many lives appear to have temporal benefits. We can and should debate the details of their theological teaching. But these details are secondary to the damage that they will ultimately inflict by grooming a generation of young people to ignore scripture as their final authority and expect truth to be delivered through various forms of mystical gnosticism. Once the bait of this shift in epistemology is taken, the hook of heresy can be set whenever the enemy wants to land the fish.
I think there may be a misunderstanding of Jim’s question. The Internet allows for a level of anonymity. For instance, I could set up a web site and claim to be Elvis Presley. I could have pictures of Elvis Presley and an email addresss elvis@presley.com. I think all he is asking is whether there has been any secondary form of authentication of Pastor Gruen. I think it is a valid question.
I was reading this interview to my wife and that is exactly what she asked me, “How do you know that this e-mail is on the up and up?” Anybody can set up a website and make it look like someone else. I think she was just wanting us to be absolutely sure of our information.
I myself was satified but I could certainly understand her concern to make sure what we have is real.
@ Nat
”…but I wonder if the prophetic movement is in decline.”
-The Gospel coalition
-The Resurgence (Acts 29 Church Plant Network)
-Sovereign Grace (C.J. Mahaney)
-Desiring God (John Piper)
…and yes Nat, the PCA are all on the up n’ up. (Namely in the PCA your man ol’ T Keller and as always Sproul, whose holding it down in Florida)
There is a huge movement in the North East of folks falling in love with “sound doctrine” (Philly, NYC, Boston, DC/Baltimore). Also note that Mars Hill Baptist a Reformed Baptist church w/ preacher Mark Driscol is VERY fruitful in one of the most under-churched cities in America, Seattle. All the above named stand for exegetical and hermeneutical integrity, and by the grace of God are laying out the raw Gospel, and in doing so are seeing a huge move of God take place with much fruit to show for it.
hmmm. i see. we got the email off his ministries web site. and i find it highly unlikely that anyone would want to impersonate ernie gruen. but here is more proof. i hope it will set some at ease. on another post his grandson comments. he is commenting because he recieved from his granddad the same email i posted in recant?? his grandson seemed to think the email was from his granddad. i believe the chances that we got some kinda ernie gruen impersonator are so small that i need a microscope to see it .
heres the link to his grandsons site. http://apollos.wordpress.com/2008/02/02/ernie-gruen/
now unless we are witnessing the case of the gruen snatchers which is always possible but not probable then this should do for all of you who are truly concerned. if it doesnt feel free to let us know.
JIM B. - Reposting in case you missed it:
-a contemporaneous report from “Ministry Today” magazine
Sept/Oct 1990. This report is in agreement with Gruen’s current interview.
After Ernie Grien met with John Wimber, Mike Bickle, and others in July of 1990, Gruen issued a public statement that he was releasing the situation into Wimber’s hands.
“We recognize that it is not now our responsibility to provide either correction or approval of KCF,” Gruen wrote in an open letter to Wimber. “We believe that you are sincerely trying to bring the balance and correction that is needed. We also understand that this will involve a process that will take some amount of time. We again wish to express our confidence in you, John and state publically that we completely and fully trust in your integrity.”
Gruen also agreed not to publish his collection of indictments, nor mail the compilation to anyone else, after July. “While I do not regret releasing the documentation [233 page report -ed.] or preaching the original sermon [Do We Keep Smiling and Say Nothing” -ed.] I do realize that I have caused pain to many individuals in the body of Christ,” Gruen acknowledged. “We do not want a war with Vineyard or Kansas City Fellowship.”
This is the gist of the “apology” as reported by Lee Grady in Ministries Today, September /Oct 1990.
It was at this time that Gruen turned things over to John Wimber so that correction could be made. The article reports Mike Bickle as stating “I open my heart to any correction that you [Gruen] have to offer that relates to any of our problems.” Bickle also was quoted in this article as saying “I don’t consider Ernie Grien malicious,” and “He’s a very sincere man of integrity and wisdom.”
Gruen is quoted as saying “It is not in my heart to defame Mike Bickle,” and “I am trying to accurately report what I consider to be a budding charismatic heresy.”
In an open letter dated April 4, 1990, Gruen told Bickle:
The local Kansas City situation is not the focus now… The issue is that you have started a movement that is promotong prophecies throughout the nation that are total fabrications in order to gain credibility…We do not wish you to harm hundreds of thousands of people nationwide.”
Gruen is truly the prophetic one. We owe him a debt of gratitude. God Bless You, Ernie Gruen.
Rob said:
“…but I wonder if the prophetic movement is in decline. I suspect that rather than waning it is adapting and alive as ever.”
I agree, Rob. Just last night my friend invited me to some “prophetic” meeting led by a local “apostle.” I always try to go without preconceived prejudices, and listen at face value. The entire things was classic MSOG — “we’re going to walk in glory. We have to be humble so we’re ready. We’re going to take down Jezebel and Baal…” It is alive and well for sure.
Rob also said:
“Many of these groups call young people to valid and noble goals… But these details are secondary to the damage that they will ultimately inflict by grooming a generation of young people to ignore scripture as their final authority and expect truth to be delivered through various forms of mystical gnosticism.”
I agree, and want to add something else. This “third wave” hit the NW in about 1994. Fourteen years later we are seeing the result of those who were youth then. For 14 years, these teens were told, “you are the generation that will… (fill in the blank).” Now many of them are in their late 20’s and have seen nothing. They are disillusioned and have left the church and Christianity altogether. The only ones I know who have not are those who know the Scripture and have clung to their own relationship with the Lord separate from the hype.
It’s very, very sad, and still continuing without abatement. I’ve asked the Lord why, and I think I know a little bit, but that’s another discussion — if anyone wants to go there.
Rob,
I am not sure it will ever be in decline. If there is a great falling away, a great apostasy then, to me, it will grow even worse. For now those who are grounded in the word are able to withstand the movement and hopefully make some kind off impact, but as more and more peole get decieved and walk a life without knowing the scriptures they will fall into the false teaching and they will drag others with them.
Let’s look at the AG Church. In the late 1940’s they were able to stop the heresy from coming to their pulpits through the general assembly and calling the heresy for what it is. Now, as those bulwarks of the church are going home to be with the Lord, the heresy has infiltrated the church (Brownsville, Bethel in Redding Ca.) and more and more are accepting of it.
I know of a pastor who took over a A/G church that tried to emulate Brownsville. They went back there and a few people “got the experience” and brought it back including the original pastor. The new man is a Dr. of Theology and told me that it took two years to overcome that “IMPLOSION” not “explosion. Then I looked at this mans personal web site/blog and I find that all of his favorite books are from Bill Johnson of Bethel of Redding. There is a great controversy in some camps as to the legitamacy of the ministry there. Testamony is that they did “astral projection travel” which was ministered by one of the “men of the Third Wave group” that began this “revival”. Once again, what is the foundation of this movement in this church?
So my point is, I don’t think we’ll see a true decline but rather a greater growth in the movement. It has been prophecied to be so in the scriptures in the end times.
So, now that we have this information that nothing was ever recanted, now what?
Seriously, what happens from here? Will this change anything? In your opinion how does this help?
Do you think we’ll see any changes from within IHOP or will things just go as they are?
Tim H,
Well at least the revisionist seem to be leaving the Bickle wikipedia entry alone. That’s a step towards truth and that’s a good thing.
Changes? Those that have been sucked into deception may be stuck there for a while. Hopefully those ready to be sucked in can the warned.
-Bill H
Yes, I realize that with this knowledge it will hopefully keep some from getting sucked in and I realize the good that can and will come out of this information.
I mean, in my own life, it has help me immensely. I just wondered what the moderators thought now that the truth has come out. Now where do we go from here?
To infinity and beyond?
I’d like to uncover Wimber’s 15 points, but he has not granted any interviews in the last ten years.
Good luck with that one Bill.
beam me up scotty!!
first star to the right and straight on till morning?
we get the word out. let people know who want to know and keep on keepin on.
Reverend Breakyoself here, if you crackas even step to my prophetic ministry, I’ll have Suge Knight find you and hang you over a balcony like he did Vanilla Ice! You won’t be the first white boys he done handled!
Just to clarify:
I (Jim B.) am not the Jim who commented on this post about verifying that Gruen is Gruen. (Though I did ask a similar question on an earlier post.)
Rob:
1. Thanks for stickin’ up for me earlier (even though it wasn’t me). I think your point there was valid - it would not be difficult to find a picture of someone and create a website/blog that supposedly belongs to them.
If it were me, and I was publicly calling someone out based on some new piece of information, I would want to REALLY make sure that the information was good. Having said that, it does appear that this is legit, and I appreciated the interview and post.
2. I think you (Rob) said it best in your first comment:
“But this is the watershed issue. It is not possible to separate IHOP from its false prophecies and false prophets.”
Ever since listening to Bickle’s 12-part “Prophetic History of IHOP”, I’ve felt the same way. These two, Cain and Jones, are absolutely foundational to Bickle’s ministry at IHOP (and previously at KCF). That both of these men have been thoroughly exposed as false prophets is a huge problem for this ministry.
Just to clarify:
I (Jim B.) am not the Jim who commented on this post about verifying that Gruen is Gruen. (Though I did ask a similar question on an earlier post.)
Rob:
1. Thanks for stickin’ up for me earlier (even though it wasn’t me). I think your point there was valid - it would not be difficult to find a picture of someone and create a website/blog that supposedly belongs to them.
If it were me, and I was publicly calling someone out based on some new piece of information, I would want to REALLY make sure that the information was good. Having said that, it does appear that this is legit, and I appreciated the interview and post.
2. I think you (Rob) said it best in your first comment:
“But this is the watershed issue. It is not possible to separate IHOP from its false prophecies and false prophets.”
Ever since listening to Bickle’s 12-part “Prophetic History of IHOP”, I’ve felt the same way. These two, Cain and Jones, are absolutely foundational to Bickle’s ministry at IHOP (and previously at KCF). That both of these men have been thoroughly exposed as false prophets is a huge problem for this ministry.
I don’t know if anyone else has listened to Bickle’s “Prophetic History of IHOP”, but in it he speaks of a prophecy Bob Jones gave of a false prophet who will be among them (the KC group). If anyone knows what I’m talking about, I have wondered since Paul Cain’s fall if he was ever identified as this prophesied false one.
Jim B.
I think that prophecy was given by Augustine
Alcala (the pre-Egypt propehcy). Because if you look at Bickle’s initial reaction to Bob Jones (1983?) he was wondering if Bob Jones was the false prophet that would be among them.
As it stands now, Cain and Jones are both in the running. Does that make Alcala and false prophet at well? (Oh, my).
-Bill
(Pray for interpetation)
>Does that make Alcala and false prophet at well?
Does that make Alcala a false prophet as well?
Bill,
You could be right. I had forgotten about Augustine. It’s hard to keep all these zany characters straight.
And I also had the thought about Jones being in the running… Maybe the prophecy is fulfilled with a double-portion?
I find this very interesting. Nat and Devin what is your opinion on these comments.
Jim B.
If you look at the page:
IHOP>who we are>mike bickle
http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=22497
You will see a link to the IHOP “Blueprint Prophecy”
It states “edited March 26, 1984″ which of course begs the question “How do you edit a prophecy” and the related question “How do you judge an edited prophecy?” but I digress.
1984 suggests that this was a Bob Jones prophecy. What do you think?
If so, it establishes that Bob Jones is foundational to all things IHOP and if he is discredited (he was) than what of the foundation?
I say this because many hoppers don’t want to discuss history, they say things have changed, they don’t want to discuss Jones and Cain, but it looks to me that Jones and Cain remain foundational to IHOP, especially in Bickle’s eyes.
-Bill
Jim-B:
You have stumbled upon the poison pill/double edged sword in Bickle’s prophetic history–the “false prophet” that would be among them.
It is the poison pill because by including it in the Prophetic History, Mr. Bickle and the leadership could use it to prevent their ministry from being taken over by some other leader/prophet.
However, I have found that this “false prophet” prophecy is a double-edged sword that no one I have asked has been willing to play with. As far as I know, please correct me if I am wrong, Mr. Bickle has not claimed fulfillment of this prophecy. I know he has at least passed on using the title on the two most likely candidates Bob Jones and Paul Cain.
But why? Wouldn’t you want to claim fulfillment of the foundational prophetic word for your ministry? Wouldn’t you want to inform your congregation and those you oversee of the false prophet that they shouldn’t follow?
It’s just not that simple though if the primary accusation against your ministry is that it is founded on false prophecy!
This is evidenced by the refusal of those in the prophetic movement to call ANYONE a false prophet. They will all recognize the possibility of false prophets but I have yet to meet ANYONE involved in the prophetic that could 1) Name a present false prophet and/or 2) give me a clear cut definition of what a false prophet is.
It is my belief that they know that as soon as they start naming names or sharpening a biblical definition of false prophecy, they or someone they hold dear are liable to be cut by it.
Bill,
Not only do Cain and Jones remain foundational to IHOP, their reckless prophetic practices remain in place to this day. Mike Bickle in his teaching notes from 2/10/2008 references several contemporary directional prophecies and a couple of directional revelatory dreams. He found it significant to mention that one of these prophecies was in the presence of Bob Jones. If these are from God, we have no way of knowing, given IHOP’s spotty prophetic batting average.
Ward,
Excellent induction. Certainly Jones could never be the false prophet. Cain? Hmmm…. Cain could fit the bill one day if it proved expedient to do so. I wonder if the ‘false prophet in the midst’ word is Bickle’s ace in the hole.
Bill,
You continue to amaze me with your detective abilities.
Jim B.,
Do you know of any way that we could acquire “the prophetic history” without buying it from the IHOP? Could you e-mail us the mp3 or transcript if you have it?
Nat
ihops copy right is the right to copy.
i was just thinking the same thing about the false prophet mabye being an ace in the whole. a scape goat to get ya off the hook if things go south. hmm..
Nat, Devin, Jarrod, and Monk,
I’ll be signing off here for a while but want to thank for your research into all this. This verification has been very valuable, along with the original report, and I’d like to ask if it’s okay to copy and paste it to some friends we still have who are heavily involved in the prophetic movement.
Blessings, and keep up the good work. I’ll look in on you from time to time.
Mbaker,
We will definitely miss your common sense perspectives around here.
Bill,
I read the Blueprint Prophecy a few years ago. I don’t recall much of it, but I believe I also understood it to have been delivered by Jones.
Natrimony,
I couldn’t find this series in IHOP’s web-store. Here is the copyright page:
http://www.ihopmp3store.com/User/Copyright.aspx
I’m not an attorney, but it sounds like I could legitimately give these away. (I have it on MP3.) Unfortunately, it’s a TON of MP3s (over 100). If we could definitively determine the ethicality (is that a word?) of giving them away, and if someone could figure out a way to conveniently do it, I would be willing.
Thanks, Nat. I must get back to the task of building my business website and scanning in 6,000 photographic images, but I will be back in a while after I get that task accomplished.
Jim B,
Send me the one about the false prophet. natrimony@yahoo.com
bye mbaker and yeah you can cut and paste all you want. peace in Him. till we hear from you again.
Hello,
This is not a slader of Mike Bickle. Hopefully simply presenting the facts.
The encountering Jesus series (12 disc CD) is online for free at
http://www.ihopmp3store.com/
The blueprint prophecy was delievered by an unknown arkansas farmer and delievered in writting to Mike. Bob Jones prophecied (sp) a few days before it that Mike would recieve the blueprint for his ministry. He has said this is the most significant Word for IHOP, and he has waited 18 years to turn it over.
The blueprint prophecy is editted about a half of page. I have asked leaders for it, and they do not have it.
The reasons of editing are from the 12th CD. The times listed are where you can find it on the CD. He reduces it because the scope is too big. At the same time he says, “Do you know how we do not tremble at this word, it is by reducing it.”
I have been told there is a lot of intereptation needed for the blueprint prophecy.
49:40
“I going out on the line. This has been under lock and key for 18 years and now I feel released to say it. This is edited, maybe a half of page is gone, it is because in no way did the editing enhance what is here. The editing actually diminishes what is here. Few things not in here, I just don’t feel like its helpful, because the strength of the things, because they are so intense. I mean in the scope of the impact just not helpful to have them in here. In the days to come, 5,10,15 years I will bring it out unedited. It is so holy. God emphasized this scripture, I mean prophecy is real.”
55:00
“I have no doubt about this. I am going to tremble. Do you know what it means to tremble at the word? Do you know how we do not tremble at this word, it is by reducing it. I am not reducing this to make some guy happy. I am trembling. This is God’s word. It is finished. Let it land were it lands. I am not going to be more humble than God, I am not going to reduce it. And when I do my human weakness thing, I am not backing off, I am taking grace and going with it. I am going to esteem his word, his strength. Its going to be done, and we are going to do it.”
20:30
“I insist on trembling at God’s word. The most import thing.”
22:10 (about blueprint prophecy)
“You must proclaim what you are going to stand true to, or if you keep it secret, you waver under pressure. ”
24:10
“The most significant Word for us corporally is the one in your hands. There is nothing to me, that has a greater implication than this word.”
TLT,
Thanks. But, I am looking for the blueprint prophecy itself. Not the various disclaimers surrounding said prophecy.
“The most significant Word for us corporally is the one in your hands. There is nothing to me, that has a greater implication than this word.”
I take this “word” to mean the blueprint prophecy.
“I have no doubt about this. I am going to tremble. Do you know what it means to tremble at the word? Do you know how we do not tremble at this word, it is by reducing it. I am not reducing this to make some guy happy. I am trembling. This is God’s word. It is finished. Let it land were it lands. I am not going to be more humble than God, I am not going to reduce it. And when I do my human weakness thing, I am not backing off, I am taking grace and going with it. I am going to esteem his word, his strength. Its going to be done, and we are going to do it.”
If this is a literal quote then it is highly contradictory and almost incomprehensible. How does the man/woman in the pew make sense of statements like these?
Also of note.
Unless you have 12 hours of free time. I would read my bible and pray instead of listening to those CD’s.
I have never seen much of Bob Jones in person. But I found this interview on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGCTMEoifqQ
In it, he reports that he goes daily to the “Third Heaven” by faith. He also easily takes other people there.
Yes, those are literal quotes from Mike Bickle about the Blueprint prophecy. (The best i can get without going crazy trying to get it perfect) Go to the time listed to hear.
The brint prophecy can be found here for free on IHOP’s site.
http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=22497
Again, just presenting the facts. If its out of context, I aploogize but would reccommend listening to those times.
In the Charisma magazine article TLT referenced MB makes a statement: “The New Testament presents the mission’s movement as deeply connected to continual prayer.” Can someone tell me where this is in scripture?
Thanks
Natrimony,
I have no idea where that particular prophecy (Augustine and the false prophet) would be in the series. If you want to contact me via email (posted on my blog), we could probably work something out.
All,
Just re-read the Blueprint Prophecy… creepy. It does explain the IHOP fixation on “Cities of Refuge”. I’ve had IHOP’rs tell me these are simply derived from the biblical story of Egypt/Goshen. It bugs me that they never admit these things are really based on extra-biblical prophecy.
If TLT’s transcriptions mean what I think they mean, then Mike Bickle’s belief in the inerrancy of some Arkansas farmer are scarier than I thought. They need to apologize to their Mormon brothers for their lack of tolerance. With this approach to revelation, its just a matter of time until the heretical floodgates burst.
Rob - they are already bursting. Check these notes out from 2/17/08. http://www.ihop.org/Group/Group.aspx?ID=1000000380
Gotta be a “forerunner” or you will be “left behind”?
1E, 2B, - oh just read them
DAS,
>Can someone tell me where this is in scripture?
Matthew 9:38, Luke 10:2
of course, that does not say “continual prayer” but I would assume that these would be the first references thrown up, followed by Acts 15:13-18 (Tabernacle of David).
The rest they just make up as they go.
In itself, I understood the “pray for”. I was trying to read into it the “continual”. Thanks Bill - I will go forward from the info above.
Just some thoughts about the blueprint prophecy: It’s like one of those vague prophecies that gathers phrases and basically says nothing. There are so many jumbled thoughts that any clear word is lost.
For years we belonged to a church that grew out of TL Osborn’s ministry — original latter rain. Every year the pastor invited respected “prophets” to prophecy over hand-selected people. They called the time “presbytery.” Most of the prophecies sounded like this blueprint prophecy. Some of the points were obvious (”God has called you to walk in His grace…” well, duh!), and some were so random they could have come from fortune cookies.
All that to say, and this is a dreadful thought: Many of these prophecies sound and “feel” like divination.
In all their “gifting,” where is the discernment of spirits?
Have you seen this..
http://thepearlsofwisdom.net/Pearls_Spirits/spiritofprof_The_Blueprint_Prophecy.html
disturbing
Greg Burnett has elevated the “blueprint prophecy” to the level of scripture by stating “IT IS WRITTEN.”
Vey disturbing…. but isn’t that how they think? Fits the bill (no pun intended) for their theology.
As you read this prophecy from the site above, how much of it seems to be coming to pass?
As Mr. Gruen states above:
“They will not quit teaching any doctrine that makes them “elitist”.”
Well, we know for a fact that the “prophets” had been discredited, which as far as I am concerned, makes what ever “prophecy” they gave discredited and false.
All I know is that I can be thankful that the Holy Spirit of God directed me to stay away so I shall, and if anyone crosses my path and they ask or mention that they are interested in IHOP my responsibility is to share the facts, documents, and atleast encourage those to search the scriptures and the ministry. After that, it is their responsibility of what direction they take.
It is sad that so many will fall away but at the same time it is a bit exciting to see the prophecies of the scriptures come to pass. Come Lord Jesus!!
I’m not sure if this Greg Burnett rendering is authentic. I did not see any mention of a false prophet either. I will have to read the IHOP original.
Thank you to the poster, greycoats, for directing my attention to the following article, as I had heard rumors that Pastor Ernie Gruen (who wrote a famous expose in 1990 on the infamous Kansas City Prophets) had later recanted some of his testimony about Bob Jones et al. But now we have it from the horse’s mouth: Ernie Gruen did not, and Mike Bickle and others are intentionally and systematicaly lying. Not good fruit, is it, coming from Mike Bickle, the heroic leader to the new breed of brainwashed, pale and sickly looking kids at IHOP, faint from excessive fasting and sleep deprivation - a common cult control technology. These kids are recruited among other ways, through Lou Engle of The Call - Lou Engle I heard has even moved near to Bickle/KC. I have more to write on IHOP/Bickle in other posts as there is so much heresy and deception coming out of there.
What does Mike Bickle have to hide? Why even hide if he is proud of where he stands - as he should be if he honestly considers himself to be a faithful servant of Christ Jesus? But instead he acts as an agent of a secret society - and there is no doubt there is a conspiracy afoot in the Charismatic world, and for years while the rest of the church has been sleeping or flaked out on the carpet, the dominionist NAR with its dangerous teachings and false prophecy has been gaining ground. Its roots have gone deeper into deeper into even non Charismatic circles. It is quite frightening when one sees just how far they have spread their tent.
Surely Mike Bickle should shout what he really thinks and really believes from the rooftops,- but instead he is a man of dark speech and double talk and covers up his and the other prophets whom he promotes dirty deeds and words. Could it be Bickle knows full well he is deep in the river of deception and the true author of the NAR, for who else lets himself by led by the father of lies instead of the Spirit of all truth? What other explanation can be given for someone who misleads and know they mislead, unless they are a secular politician. But lying and obscure speech not the actions of a spirit filled and spirit led leader, they are the hallmarks of the antichrist whome I have long said is being birthed in this movement. They are not what one expects from a spirit led leader, unless the spirit is not the spirt of Christ. Ah, now you got it! Dominion at any price. All hail C Peter Wagner, the new ecumenical pope, and his archbishop Chucky. Chuck Pierce that is.
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com
o.k. what is NAR?
new apostolic reformation = NAR
Ah, good on ya.
Nat sez:
>I’m not sure if this Greg Burnett rendering is authentic. I did not see any mention of a false prophet either.
The false prophet thing was in the Augustine Alcala propehcy (pre-Egypt).
One thing that is noticable in all of these prophecies is their self-fulfilling nature. Margaret Poloma comments on this in her book “Main Street Mystics.”
For instance, if you prophecy that God is going to raise up the office of the prophet, and then later you take that title yourself, you have just confirmed your prophecy.
If someone propehcies (as in the blueprint prophecy) that God is going to raise up a government of 12 aposotles, and then you take steps (as Peter Wagner is doing) anbd declare it to be so, that is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
The caveat is this: Many of us want to test propehcies by stating if it fulfilled it is of God. They fail to realize that prophectic words from the pit of hell can be fulfilled as well.
This is why we have the Word of God, the Holy Bible.
“The most significant Word for us corporally is the one in your hands. There is nothing to me, that has a greater implication than this word.”
quote Mike Bickle, TLT above.
———————-
“Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none.”
quote Joseph Smith Jr., B.H. Roberts, History of the Church 2:52
———————-
Extra-biblical revelation has a very spotty history in the Christian faith.
Sorry, typo correction, I meant to say:
Could it be Bickle knows full well he is deep in the river of deception and who is the true author of the NAR - Satan - for he is the father of lies, and Bickle is led by this spirit of all lies instead of the Spirit of all truth.
endtimespropheticwords and everyone,
“But now we have it from the horse’s mouth…”
Very emphatic pronouncement. Not a Bickle fan?
But on a housekeeping note–Alright everyone, if I have to read “from the horse’s mouth” one more time I think I will puke. Please, at least pick another cliche to use (even though this particular one does allude to the donkey of Balaam it is just starting to annoy the crap out of me).
monkey’s butt?
‘The horse’s mouth’ was used in reference to Ernie Gruen quenching the rumours about him and not Mike Bickle, and was not eluding to Balaam’s donkey either.
No, I am not a Bickle fan, though I used to be - til I actually went and asked God about he and his contemporarys. Boy, was I in for a shock when I heard what God had to say about my then hero Paul Cain (this is before I knew he had fallen and when I thought God would say ‘great guy’). My eyes were then opened to this whole prophetic-apostolic movement…
I’m in agreement with Bill; Monkeys butt is a great replacement!
@endtimespropheticwords
What did God tell you about these men or do you have a post on your site that tells us that?
monkeys butt??? oy
Example:
“I heard it from the monkeys butt.”
Hey; Is the NAR a movement that is attempting to live in the 21st century with 1st century application? If so is the movement mainly IHOPpers and Morning Star folks? Because if it is they might want to rethink their stance on eternal security and the providence of God. From what I’ve been able to take from the scriptures is that the apostles were Reformed.
Grose! This can of worms I just opened has a slimey like mold, as if it’s really old. The side of the can reads “Martins’ Worms.”
Get it!!! hahahaha!!! “Martins’ Worms.” O-thats funny.
ok I’m done.
The monkey’s butt has spoken.
From thine monkieth butteth I hearith.
In Frence it’s, moonkay-le-boot
@Natrimony,
I know what he told you and how he told or from what source he told you, I was asking post #92
Tim,
Sorry. I didn’t get much sleep last night. You can probably tell by my overbalanced fascination with simian anal vocalizations.
If you put your ear to the monkeys butt can you hear the ocean?
O.K. It’s not funny anymore.
I’m lonely
Maybe you should delete posts 103 to 105
man lets get down to some kinda semblence of a topic. nat, monk-eis butt, do you guys think that mabye we have been shunned just alittle. i mean its been a few days and not a peep of you evil villians or any thing. what do you all think?
Thanks for the laugh. I needed that.
@ Grey Coats
Ever since we recieved this enterview, I’ve been saying that that IHOP no longer has a leg to stand on. Whats more is they know it. So of course their will be no reaction, what would they react with. “You guys are stupid.” thats about all thay got.
@ Desean
I’ m glad that you got a kick out of the primate dialogue
w/luv,
grr
SDM,
>”So of course there will be no reaction, what would they react with. ”
There is another possibility. It may be that the leadership at IHOP has directed the students and staff to not respond and they are obeying that directive. We have no way of knowing if this is the case, but if it is, then this is as scary as anything else about IHOP. If they can wield that type of control, then thats frighteningly unhealthy.
Funny you say that I just talked to greycoats (he rebuke dme for the monkeys butt bit) and he presumes the same thing
hahahahahahahahah!!!! i rebuked you for your spelling. i like the monkeys butt bit. and perhaps you should be more clear. i dont presume to have the power to tell you what to do. i think mabye the kids and adults at ihop have been told to stay away from us. it is a possibility worth exploring.
I would imagine their will be a teaching coming out quickly that will address this somehow without addressing it (if ya know what I mean). Watch the notes on the website and you shall see. (Oooooh was that prophetic?)
Oh how I would love to be indirectly spoken of in some shmrophetic masking going something like so:
“I had a dream, and in it, i was reading a computer, a computer full of lies, then the lord told me to eat it, so I ate the computer, it has been eaten”
Or maybe a little more vague, as many of their shmrophecies are.
-Devin
Tim
I know there’s quite a lot of posts on my site about C Peter Wagner and his buddies and the round table of prophets joined to the KC hip. I’m rushing here but briefly -
It started some years ago. Up until that time Paul Cain was my prophetic ‘hero’, I never once questioned him as I was never taught to, and to be fair I was pretty ignorant of what he was REALLY about and what he actually taught anyway. Many people who follow these folk are, they are taught to kind of slumber and jump at words like revival and anointing and ignore the rest cos their church advocates them. I’d listened to his expensive tapes on Joel’s Army and been thoroughly bored at his droning on as had the other Vineyard staff I was with at the time in 1995 - thankfully.
But before that I’d gone to see him in 1990 and had been amazed at his apparent ‘word of knowledge’ accuracy (which I know now with more wisdom and hindsight at least part of was a lie as he gave a word for somebody I knew very well - but I was then young, naive and far too trusting) - so it was his ministry not his teaching I focussed on and everything else I heard had been handed down second hand via Wimber and the Vineyard movement which I was in as well as YWAM.
I also heard the slick John Paul Jackson and others from KC in the early 90s and remember thinking at the time, that is not right what they are saying, it sounded like a lie and a exageration as well as terrible theology - when they recounted waking up with demon scratches and things because they were so spiritually attacked because they were so anointed and prophetic - but because I was pro Vineyard and still young and naive I put it aside.
But then a few years later after reading Jessie Penn Lewis’s ‘War on the Saints’ about deception happening and mingling amongst the true in a time of revival (NB I disagree with a lot of what she says), I decided to ask God about Paul Cain. Dunno why, as I fully 100% expected God to say ‘he’s my man, he’s so great.’ etc
God didn’t though and I was shocked. Remember this is before I knew anything about his homosexuality or fall. I had a vision of Paul Cain standing under a dark black umbrella. The darkness representing his true spiritual covering - he was not of the light. The umbrella connection and the rain was to do with Latter Rain which I then recalled vaguely Cain was historically associated with but I really knew nothing about and did not then understand it. But God was saying to me - this man is ‘bad’ cos of the Latter Rain covering, that is his true spiritual source and the Latter Rain is dark as can be.
As I prayed and asked God more, my eyes became opened to the whole new movement gathering momentum since the early 90s. I saw how Paul Cain’s ministry and Latter Rain connection was critical in this dominionist movement and how it had infected the church through Fuller, Wagner John Wimber and Toronto (which God had shown me in 1994 was not from him but of the evil one) and just where spiritua warfare is wanting to go.
Loose strands suddenly joined together and I understood better what was going on, saw the whole for the first time - and understood how the spirits I’d seen on people fitted all together into one terrible whole. I understood why the same weird shine was on the faces of C Peter Wagner, Chuck Pierce, Bill Hamon and some other folk. I thought everyone saw these things on their faces, as to me they are clear as day - at first I thought it was Jesus as it is so similar a spirit but so differant, I never understood it when I saw on folk previously as it looked good and spiritual, but I understand now it is demonic as when I think of all the people I have seen it on in the past, it was demonic, they were dabbling with demons. It is a counterfeit spirit.
I also understood why Jill Austin was what she was. I encountered her several times and never liked her - spiritually or personally, though I did not understand why then (I never thought to ask God, derr) though I saw darkness in her - and that was when I chased after these people’s anointing like a fly to the light - but then she was incredibly rude to me and another person once - one on one - for no good reason - and obviously could not care less about it, after literally just coming off the ministry platform at that - and I also saw with my own eyes how she treated her interns like absolute dirt who ran after her like little sick puppies. This was in 1995. I think the intern was shocked too but ran after her.
Some time after asking God about Paul Cain, I was told about C Peter Wagner. He is antichrist. Not necessarily THE final man of perdition and dark speech but not of God in his motives, mission and anointing and it is an antichrist movement being birthed - a beast - with the mouth of the false prophet.
I am sure of what I heard, though people laugh when I say it, but look at what he does, what he says, he expects the whole church to submit to him, do you know just how many movements and people this guy has ‘covering’ over that he demands complete unthinking obedience from, and he has gnostic round tables of unscriptural bible thowing away apostles and prophets all submitting to him? I researched it the other day and it is incredible and a post will soon be on my site on this about the church, business and money movements and everything else linked to him.
And when you look at what he is doing collecting data on church members, and the militaristic speech and prophecies from Cindy Jacobs and Rick Joyner etc I can see the ’spiritual warfare’ morphing into taking the land by literal force, the blues and the greys, civil war in the church literally - this has happened in all the church histories I have read among milleniasts led by false prophets including even in the anabaptists - when God does not do it, they decide to do it for God, and the frightening thing is, it will be supposedly spirit filled Christians thinking they are doing God’s work. Zionism is darn dangerous. Wagner’s obvious ecumenical connections with the Roman Catholic beast and his listed pro Catholicism, the prophetic connections with the knights of Malta, the list goes on and on. The guy is dangerous.
So briefly these men and the movement is not from God. A lot of the people connected to the movement do not know it is bad, just like I did not, or do not think it through. They do not discern. But there are some who I know do know the true author and perfector of their faith - and it aint Christ.
if they speak of us indirectly do you think they will name us or give us new aliases. like the coats of grey of which i was dreaming after i ate the computer. thus saith the butt of the monkey.
sorry i couldn,t resist
You guys are weird!!!!!
Is there something in writing somewhere that IHOP or Mike Bickle is directly connected with C Peter Wagner? I haven’t come across much.
Das, this may help, I didn’t read through all of it, but I think I remember seeing Bickle’s name in the mix of it.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/wagnerquotes.html
i dont know. and yeah we are alittle wierd but its a full moon and all that. honestly i am just lettin off a bit o steam tonight. i am wondering why no one has come to the defense of ihop. it may be that they cant. or it may be that they view us like Herod and jesus. you know He didnt speak to herod. they may think that the holy way to deal with this situation is to just ignore it and it will go away. i dont know. maybe it will go away. but their silence says something. hmmm…. maybe they will teach about this indirectly or maybe they will just slander us and try to discredit us like they did gruen. or maybe they are writting their apology as we speak.
Jarrod, liam-e ruoy kcehc
Devin,
oot ,taht od nac i.
Yes, Wagner can be connected to Bickle, through Wimber.
We know that C. Peter Wagner had a longstanding relationship with apostate John Wimber (a Quaker) who founded the Vineyard Church stream. We know that both Wagner and Wimber were instructors at a class at Fuller Theological called: MC510 Signs and Wonders. This class became very popular and eventually a book was published about the spiritual experiments they performed. The book is entitled,
Wagner, C. Peter; Wimber, John R.; Hubbard, David A.; McGavran, Donald A. “Signs and Wonders Today: The story of Fuller Theological Seminary’s remarkable course on spiritual power,” new expand. ed. (Altamonte Springs, FL: Creation House, 1987)
Then add Rick Warren to this mix…..
Author(s): WARREN, RICHARD DUANE Degree: D.MIN. Year: 1993 Pages: 00413 Institution: FULLER THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY, DOCTOR OF MINISTRY PROGRAM; 0790 Advisor: Mentor: C. PETER WAGNER
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/addendumNAR.html
If these 3 ministries unite…watch out…