This is something that we had just stumbled upon, and really ended up being a task that nobody (except God) had planned for.
The Story:
Shortly after this blog was started, I was doing some research online about Mike Bickle. Then I stumbled upon the Wikipedia page that was made about Mike Bickle. On it, a man named Ernie Gruen was mentioned as a critic of Bickle, but then the site said that Gruen had recanted his critiques and allegedly said that he was “deceived and a deceiver”. That made me a little more curious about the situation. In the early 80’s Ernie Gruen wrote a report warning others about the abuses of Mike Bickle and the Kansas City Prophets. If you’ve never heard of the Kansas City Prophets, you may have heard of the International House of Prayer (I.H.O.P), Morningstar, “The Call” with Lou Engle, and OneThing. If you are familiar with these movements, they are all associated with the Kansas City Prophets. Now, simply google the Kansas City Prophets, and see for yourself who they are, and what they do. Ernie Gruen is not the only man to confront the false teachings (and false hope) that these men dish out. Other more well-known men are Dr. John Macarthur who wrote “Charismatic Chaos”, and Hank Hanegraff with his book “Counterfeit Revival”. As I fished around on the internet, I couldn’t find much on Mr. Gruen, so of course this got even more interesting. Then, sure enough. I find Ernie Gruen himself. I found his website, and his e-mail is plastered right there on the home page. Apparently many others who have found confirmation with their own convictions concerning the 3rd wave charismatic movement in the Ernie Gruen Report have already contacted him and gotten questions answered about the situation by the man himself. Since I had really only known about Ernie’s report for a few days, I wasn’t sure how I could best use my opportunity to correspond with him. So the following happened. Here is a compilation of all the materials that have developed since the saga began.
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Blog #1- The Infamous Ernie Gruen Report. January, 18th 2008.
The Ernie Gruen report is 233 pages full of info from financial issues to examples of abusive prophecy.
This letter is long, and Ernie is a Christian, and I can’t exactly pinpoint all of his doctrinal beliefs, but this document, by far is a major blemish on the “Kansas City prophets” record.
Also, if Ernie did in fact say that he was wrong in this report, the documentation still remains of personal testimonies, and evidence of edited tapes. I haven’t read the entire document, but what I have read doesn’t surprise me, and also, Ernie isn’t the only guy to have reported these sort of things within the movement.
So, here I gladly present perhaps the best document concerning Mike Bickle and his entourage’s history.
Aberrent Practices – By Ernie Gruen
If you have the time, and the paper, you should print this out. It is also available for download here.
The people who published the report to their website don’t seem to be keeping the site up anymore. I tried to find out info on them and their beliefs but was unable to. So I can’t say if I do, or don’t endorse them.
If Ernie returns by e-mail, I will post the response.
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Blog #2- BIG UPDATE, ERNIE GRUEN’S RESPONSE TO MY E-MAIL.- January 18th, 2008
Alright, everyone knows that I found this statement about Ernie Gruen on Mike Bickle’s wikipedia page:
“Bickle’s ministry has historically been very controversial, even within the charismatic movement. This controversy was heightened when charismatic pastor Ernie Gruen released a report in 1990 documenting what he considered to be many aberrant practices in Kansas City. Ernie Gruen wrote a citywide letter saying that he was sorry for writing what had come to be known as the Ernie Gruen Report. In an open letter in the early 1990s Gruen referred to himself as deceived and a deceiver.”
On a side note this wikipedia page is also linked off of the International House Of Prayer’s wikipedia page. So that sort of tells me that both links were made by IHOP.
So, I found Ernie Gruen’s E-mail, and sent the following:
Hello Brother, Grace and Peace to you.
I have been researching the “Kansas City Prophets” because half of my church split and moved to the “International House of Prayer” where Mike Bickle is the pastor. I came across something known as the “Ernie Gruen Report” at this website:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bickle
The site claims that you “wrote a citywide letter saying that he was sorry for writing what had come to be known as the Ernie Gruen Report. In an open letter in the early 1990s Gruen referred to himself as deceived and a deceiver.”
The site did not provide documentation of your alleged words. So I want to ask if you really did say you were sorry for the letter, and perhaps if there is still a chance of me reading the letter if it exists.
I do not wish to stir up any controversy or anything.
God bless you, and your ministry.
in Christ,
Devin Murphy
-
ERNIE’S RESPONSE:
SEE ATTACHMENT.
Attachment:
I am convinced that Bob Jones has a familiar spirit, a demon of divination, and is into the occult. He is just absolutely weird. ACTS 16;16-18Acts 16:16–Now it happened, as we went to prayer,that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us,
who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling.
17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying,
“These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.”
18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit,
“I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.”
And he came out that very hour. NKJV
Also read Jeremiah 23:13-32
————————————————————-
And if people don’t believe me, they can e-mail Ernie themselves.
So it has been confirmed by the original source that the Infamous Ernie Gruen Report was never apologized for. And that whoever is keeping up Mike Bickle’s wikipedia page is either lying, or was lied to. There is no city-wide letter that Ernie Gruen wrote apologizing for the letter. None has ever turned up to substantiate the claim.
I.H.O.P is guilty until proven innocent.
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Blog #3 More Answers From an Authority. January 27th, 2008- Posted by Natrimony
After Devin’s initial contact with Pastor Gruen I decided to follow his lead and e-mail him with some questions of my own. Pastor Gruen obliged my inquiry. His answers are short but comprehensive. I have reprinted my letter plus Pastor Gruen’s reply here in its entirety, without any editing. He also attached a warning against Bob Jones which is identical to the one he sent to Devin earlier reprinted on BIG UPDATE, ERNIE GRUEN’S RESPONSE TO MY E_MAIL. I did not include the attachment.
Also, Pastor Gruen has agreed to an interview with thegreycoats. Jarrod, Devin, and I are in the process of compiling questions which we hope to have a transcript of answers to sometime in the near future. We hope the answers will be refreshingly radical in their reformative effect on those who have bought into the IHOP and modern prophetic movements. But, in the meantime, this update must suffice for everyone tracking the relevance of The Infamous Ernie Gruen Report.
My letter:
Hello Pastor Gruen,
My friend Devin recently e-mailed you in reference to your report detailing aberrant practises in the Kansas City Fellowship during the late ’80’s and early 90’s. I have also come across an article on the blog “Thoughts and Ponderings” by someone who claims to be your grandson. He says that, “To sum up all of this, I would like to close with a conversation I had with my grandfather, Ernie Gruen. After being troubled by all that I have read about Mike Bickle, IHOP, and KCF, I finally confronted the man who confronted Mike Bickle. My grandfather said that he and Mike Bickle are now on good terms and he actually supports Mike’s ministry. My grandfather went on to say that they are friends but the person he did have a problem with is Bob Jones.”
I’m sure you’ve been through a nightmare of attack in regard to your forthrightness and Berean spirit. And, I would not be surprised if you were so sick of dealing with this issue that you do not respond to this. But my conscience requires me to ask: Are you really on good terms with Mike Bickle now and in support of his ministry? Have you ever written an open letter recanting your original report? Your leadership and advice is vital to my own spiritual struggle with the entity known as IHOP and its leader Mike Bickle. Thank you for publishing your report and I hope to hear from you soon.
Grace and Peace,
Nathaniel Ruland
Pastor Gruen replied with:
1. I have no animosity to Mike, but could not support his ministry.
2. My grandson since putting that on the internet has totally left Ihop, and will have nothing to do with it.
3. I never sent a letter repudiated the original document–that is a total lie. The document was and is true.
4. See attachment.
That’s it ya’ll, until we get more.
—
Blog #4 Recant??? January 30th, 2008 – Posted by thegreycoats
As you all know the Grey coats have been in contact with pastor Ernie Gruen . He is the author of a quite lengthy quite infamous report . We have asked the pastor about the rumors of his alleged recantation of this report in the form of a city wide letter and or public apology of any kind. The Grey coats have also requested an interview with pastor Gruen to help clarify the issue because there seems to be some disagreement on the truth of these matters. Did Gruen recant? Did he apologize for his report? Where are these rumors coming from ? Here is a brief taste of what is to come in the near future as we go and get the truth straight from the proverbial horses mouth.
It has been spread around Kansas City and on the Internet that I sent out a letter saying that I was deceived and that I had retracted the document “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Fellowship). They have been known by many names in the KC area, switching elders and church names on a regular basis. For a while they were known as Metro Vineyard. (Interesting John Wimber told me that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickle, because he discovered that I was correct in the “Aberrant” document.)
I sent out no such letter; I issued no retraction; I did not issue an apology!
Statements asserting the above are total malicious lies!
The “Aberrant” document was and is exactly the truth of what happened. It was accumulated from tapes purchased from Bickel’s own ministry. The report is genuine!
Who originated these lies? I have no idea.
Who decided to spread these lies on the Internet and throughout KC? I do not know.
But it is Mike’s responsibility to see that these lies are repudiated by him and also publicly at I-Hop. Since it purportedly is regularly stated to newcomers to I-Hop. Of course it is to Bickel’s advantage to keep THE LIE going to increase his numbers and growth of his ministry.
Pastor Ernie Gruen
———————
As you can see Pastor Gruen is adamant in his statements that he did not recant or apologize. This begs the question, who has spread this rumor? Why have they lied about this man? And my personal favorite: Why does Mike Bickle’s wikepedia page keep getting re-edited every time we correct the error about Pastor Gruen’s report ? (interestingly enough it doesn’t even mention Pastor Gruen any more hmmmm…) The answers to these questions are out there somewhere . Maybe we will find a few as time goes by.
–Addendum: Pastor Gruen’s grandson Grant has reprinted this letter on his blog here:
http://apollos.wordpress.com/2008/02/02/ernie-gruen/
This reprint does support source authenticity. Namely, that we’re not just making all of this stuff up.
—
—Side Note—
In the midst of all this, discussions in the comment sections were happening about trying to interview Mr. Gruen. We wrote up some questions, and sent them with a prayer, and a few weeks later the questions came back answered. Here is that post.
—
Blog #5 The Much Awaited Interview with Ernie Gruen, February 17th 2008
They will not quit teaching any doctrine that makes them “elitist”.
4. Did you truly exonerate Paul Cain from all your previous accusations, if so would you mind telling us what changed your mind?
Mike Bickle himself exposed and discredited him. http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel19.html
5. Did you really apologize to Mr. Bickle for the accusations you made in your report?
This fabrication that I apologized, spread by Mike Bickle and/or his I-hop staff, is a total lie. I never apologized to him–you do not apologize for exposing false prophets and telling the truth.
6. Do you think that John Wimber’s covering addressed the problems you spoke of in your report?
The elders of Full Faith Church agreed to stop sending out the “Aberrant Document” for two reasons: one, John Wimber said he would “clean up the mess at KCF” and provide oversight, and secondly to restore unity in the city. However, before Wimber died, he phoned me and said “I was right all the time in the ‘Aberrant Document’ and that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickle.” The proof that this phone call occurred is that at this point KCF quit calling themselves “Metro-Vineyard,” and removed themselves from his covering.
7. Do you think that the international house of prayer is spiritually dangerous, if so what concerns you the most?
Please read an excerpt from an e-mail I received this week, with the name withheld:
“Last year I attended an internship at the I.H.O.P. called “Fire in the Night” . . . We had a class called the “Prophetic History” class where in it we listened to audio tapes of Mike Bickle’s experiences in the super-natural realm and prophecies of Bob Jones, Paul Cain . . . After some meetings with the leadership there I decided to leave the program. I was led to the report you had written about the Kansas City Prophets and Mike Bickle exposing them for their lies. After reading this report I was even more disturbed because of its content. I took what I had read back to the leadership at I.H.O.P. and presented it to them asking them if this, “the report you wrote” was true?
They then told me that it was not true and that you had made a public apology to Mike and others for having written it. The leader I spoke to said he was there to witness these things taking place. I wasn’t sure if he was telling the truth so I wanted to ask you a couple of questions personally.”
I challenge Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staff to remove this so-called leader for telling a whopper of a lie!
1 Cor 3:11–For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ (NKJV)
Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs have built their entire foundation on two discredited false prophets.
8. If there was any advice you could give to someone who is considering worshipping at I.H.O.P. what would it be?
Thoroughly read and study these two documents and then pray and make your own decision:
a) The original “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship.
http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html
b) Paul Cain discredited by Mike Bickle:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel19.html
9. Do you feel that the stand you took was worth it? Absolutely!
10. Why did you stop circulating the report? See answer in question #6.
Though Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs unethically look for any reason to slander me, the personal situation involving me occurred several years after the “Aberrant Document” was released. It had and has no relationship to the contents of the document or its release whatsoever.
——-
Well, everyone, as you can see this is a big deal. If people who advocate men like Bob Jones, and Mike Bickle, and the International House of Prayer take this into consideration, a lot of pain, and knee jerk reactions will probably flare up. The purpose of this site is not to hurt you. We are here to call out some of the things that WE OURSELVES SAW within the movement. We still have many dear brothers and sisters in Christ that are involved in the numerous places associated with those mentioned in the posts. The same Messiah that saved us has saved them also. We know that there are many Christians within these ministries, so we aren’t necessarily attacking entire congregations or anything of that sort. We are simply asking for a formal response to what has been waged towards Mr. Bickle and his ministry.
The big issue here is that somebody started a rumor (that has been proven to be a lie thus far) that Ernie Gruen recanted. There have been people coming onto this site in the blogs saying that they have seen Gruen’s letter of recantation. Also saying that they themselves saw Mr. Gruen recant publicly. So far, when asked, NOBODY has produced any evidence of these other than their own testimony. Logically if this was as big of a deal as it has been known to be, then there would still be copies of the letter floating around.
People who work with the International House of Prayer have claimed that Ernie recanted.
Ernie says that he didn’t.
All we want to know, and want you to know, is who is telling the truth.
Decide for yourself.
Feel free to comment on this post, and also you can find all of the posts here in our archives if you wish to talk specifics.
In Christ, our Salvation,
The Grey coats team, Jarrod, Nathaniel, and Devin.
143 Comments
February 18, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Looky
February 18, 2008 at 5:53 pm
great work!
February 18, 2008 at 6:27 pm
It appears you done everything you could to convince folks this is real. I would now invite them to investigate for themselves if they think this isn’t the real thing. There are now two confirming reports, one from Ernie and the other from his grandson. You have done a great job in obtaining this information firsthand, in my opinion. No other site that I know of has been able to do that thus far.
Let the doubters check it out further for themselves.
February 18, 2008 at 10:53 pm
yeah yeah!!Thanx mbaker. i agree.
February 20, 2008 at 11:39 pm
Thanks so much for making this available to all.
I read this document because my mother gave it to me to read.
I read the report and thought….I’ll have some grace in this area. Things happened then, but surely they have been cleaned up now. So I went to the IHOP website and looked up what they had to say about the controversey.
Here is a direct quote from their website about prophecy.
“WE DENY subjective prophetic experiences are equal to the inspired Word of God. In other words, all personal prophecy must uphold and honor the Scripture.
Explanation: Simple prophecy is limited to edification, exhortation and comfort (1 Corinthians 14:3). It is to enrich our spiritual life, rather than give direction in the domestic areas of our life.”
Here is the place to find it.
http://ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000010501
Yet they reference a prophecy that will dictate church matters in this document. Guess who one of the prophets was? Bob Jones.
http://ihop.org/Publisher/File.aspx?id=1000006121
They also still hold to their original prophecy. It too is found on their website. Scroll down below Mike Bickle’s profile. It’s called The Blueprint Prophecy.
http://ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=22497
So…..nothing has changed. Not even after their prophets were discredited. And Deuteronmy 18:20 is very clear. If a prophet has a false prophecy he is to be put to death. Therefore, he is not a prophet of God.
I am saddened for our city. I will pray that things will change at IHOP. I won’t go, but I will pray.
February 21, 2008 at 3:00 am
Thanks for the love Amanda, looks like you’ve been doing your homework. I give you an A+++
Keep up the good work, the word needs to get out to those being hidden from this sort of info.
in Him,
Devin
February 26, 2008 at 9:15 am
It also might be a good idea to add the fact that Ernie Gruen ran off with the secretary of his former church.
A lot of stuff happened in the 80’s and 90’s. A lot of it was from the Lord, some of it was not. The prophetic was very immature, as were many prophetic people.
Just people may not understand some of the things that have happened, does not mean anything.
We need to pray for the spirit of wisdom and revelation before we judge things we do not understand. Gods thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and his ways are higher than our ways.
The Lord is raising up many places in the U.S. IHOP is one of them.
I’m not telling you what to believe, and I’m not going to debate. The only thing I want to add is do not think that even you can be deceived. We are all deceived in different areas. Even though I’m assuming you are not a Rick Joyner fan (lol) I’m going to use a quote from his book..
“Know your present level of deception”
The only way we can know truth, true truth…is if God opens our eyes/understanding and allows us to see. Trying to understand everything with your intellect will leave you with nothing but confusion and deception. (note: Im not saying using your intellect is a bad thing, God gave it to us to use…but do not rely completely on it)
Whatever you think about IHOP-KC is your business, but please do not completey determine in your mind that IHOP (and the well known ppl affiliated with it) are false prophets and not of God….if you believe that…thats fine…but just leave room in your mind for the fact that you very well could be deceived about this yourself.
I’m not saying you are, but please just consider that fact in your own mind.
I could go on, but I’ll wait and see if you respond to this.
God Bless you bro. You have a great gift for writing, and I can just sense that God is going to use you in an amazing way.
Take care
- Scott
February 26, 2008 at 9:17 am
Obviously I had a ton of spelling mistakes in that, and missed some words. I trust you understand the point I was making.
February 26, 2008 at 3:11 pm
Scott,
Thanks for dropping by and for the pleasantries. We are aware of Pastor Gruen’s alleged moral misconduct. However, an ad hominem argument does not discredit eyewitness testimony from an insider coupled with the backup of scores of churches. In other words that argument would be disregarded in a court of law.
Moving on. If you are not going to debate then why did you spend the time on a moderately long post? Are you a drive-by, is your position above defense, or, are you really interested in hearing the other side–going beyond your prophetically preunderstood cliches of ‘present level of deception’ , ‘intellect vs revelation’, and of course the blanket statement–’don’t judge what you don’t understand’.
>”A lot of stuff happened in the 80’s and 90’s. A lot of it was from the Lord, some of it was not. The prophetic was very immature, as were many prophetic people.”
This reads almost verbatim to a Mike Bickle quote from “Growing in the Prophetic”–yes I’ve read it. You might be surprised to find the level of past experience with IHOP to be pretty high on this site. Stick around. And, skim the page “Read This Before You Comment”.
February 26, 2008 at 3:32 pm
>(in the 80’s and 90’s) The prophetic was very immature, as were many prophetic people.”
This could lead to a very interesting discussion. I was heavily involved in “the prophetic” in the 80’s and 90’s. For the most part the prophecy was forthtelling:
Yay, the Lord says that I love you with an undying love, and I will never leave you or forsake you
Fast forward to to the 2000’s where prophecy morphed into “foretelling”:
I sense the Lord is going to begin to name some new candy bars. When these are named they will release a prophetic anointing every time the name of the candy is mentioned. These names will have power to call forth life and salvation.
Now tell me, seriously, which is mature and which is immature?
I would posit that mature prophesy would edify, exhort and comfort. I would posit that mature prophesy would line up with, and be testable by, the holy scriptures.
A side note- as the “prophetic” matured, instructional material started suggesting that you no longer say “The Lord Says” but preface your “prophetic words” with “I sense” or something like that.
A mother says to her son: “Don’t go to the abandoned warehouse. Do you hear me?”
Son “yes, I hear you”
the son goes to the warehouse, and mom discovers it.
Mom ” Didn’t I tell you not to go to the warehouse?”
Son ” I said ‘I heard you’, I didn’t say I wouldn’t go”
This is the same sort of wiggle-room that prophets of today are taught. Children play this game. It is not a sign of maturity.
February 26, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Scott
if you look at the bottom of the gruen interview he mentions hs immorality and says t took place years after the report. my frend what you are doing when you brng t up is using an emotional pull to win an argument. his immorality has no effect on the report it self. thats like saying rush limbaugh can no longer be a good political analyzer because he had a problem with pain pills. and no i am not a big joyner fan. he obviously does not know his own present level of deception. as based on the final quest which we would all do well to take off the shelves of every bookstore in the world. but i dont have time for that right now. hope you have a jolly day and thanks for stoppin by.
February 26, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Hey, you guys got off pretty easy with Scott. After Miriam Franklin copied the interview on her blog, Scott told her it was “a waste of an article”. And that’s all. No howdy doo or anything.
February 26, 2008 at 6:29 pm
it is not a waste but hey if thats how he feels. it doesn’t change the facts of the article that gruen wrote. folks are gonna have to realize that essentially all we have done is prove that the report is still upheld by its author. they gotta deal with the info in the report it self or not at all. yet if they refuse to even check the report we have very little to discuss with them. and slamming Gruen works both ways folks, fair is fair. if your gonna argue that gruen cant be trusted because of his lapse into sin. then you need to be ready to have the same logic thrown back at you. if gruen is dscredited because of immorality then so is Paul Cain and Bob jones. they also fell into pretty Gross immorality. so by scotts own logic they cannot be trusted either in which case i am o.k. since we are already asserting that they cant be trusted. you shall be snared by the words that you type
February 26, 2008 at 6:31 pm
I sure hope that the prophecies in the Bible weren’t “immature”.
That’s just the thing for me. When “the prophetic” is “immature” ultimately relates christians as if they are some jedi’s growing in “the force”.
NO prophecy is “immature” if it is, then God becomes immature. The prophecies spoken do not rely on the one speaking the prophecy. Rather, on God who speaks.
Honestly, I caught what I’ve so often seen within the charismatic movement. Being told that I don’t understand. Then playing the “above reproach” card (wrongly) with the whole “I’m not going to debate” thing, implies that our friend Scott has full assurance that we are wrong. So much that he believes it useless to debate with us, or even discuss with us. This is especially sad because DOCTRINAL BELIEFS MUST BE TESTED BY SCRIPTURE (emphasis meant) and
NOBODY HAS BIBLICALLY DEFENDED THE VIEWS OF IHOP OR MORNINGSTAR ON THIS SITE, whether it be on prophecy, the bridal paradigm, the “fasted lifestyle”, nothing.
So, here we are again, with a supportor of these groups giving his 2 cents and sounding nice in that condescending sort of niceness that is loaded with implications…
Now Scott, I’m sure I sounded pretty harsh, but we do totally want the full truth of the Gospel. We don’t want to miss anything that Jesus has to offer. If you can really defend your position from the Bible, we really do search out what is being said to us (though some people judge us otherwise). Also, as Natrimony said, it is a logical fallacy to use a man’s character against the content of a document that he produced. Truth remains truth no matter what the one bringing the truth has allegedly been through.
For example, I will relate the part where you committed a logical fallacy (logic is a gift that God gave man to use to help discern what is wise, and what is foolish):
Ernie Gruen drops facts about Mike Bickle’s fellowship of the time.
“It also might be a good idea to add the fact that Ernie Gruen ran off with the secretary of his former church.”
Adolf Hitler does a math problem with the following equation:
20+9=29
“It also might be a good idea to add the fact that Adolf Hitler killed millions of jews.”
So, does the man’s truth claim change because of a moral act? No.
Ernie Gruen never recanted, but some people still say that he did, and some people from IHOP even said that they saw him recant (allthewhile they were around 6 or 7 years old when it happened..?)
OK, I’m definitely done for now.
Scott, please come back and talk to us, also, bring your friends, your pastors, anybody, no other people from the 3rd wave movement will stick around and try to convince us on what they believe we’re missing out on.
in Christ, true love,
Devin Murphy
February 26, 2008 at 6:50 pm
An interesting case in point is Zack’s latest post here:
http://zackhensley.wordpress.com/
While I greatly applaud his commitment for refusing to respect someone’s beliefs to the point of letting them think they’re not going to go to hell without Jesus, I wonder why IHOP folks can’t see, that by the same token, we are trying to protect them from some of the false beliefs their leadership is promoting.
I don’t get it.
February 26, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Scott -
To me it is pretty simple. But then I have a pea brain.
Jesus said “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Ok, so Ernie gruen fell into sin. Is Mike Bickle without sin? I don’t think so. Are you or I without sin? I don’t think so. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Remember that teaching from Sunday School?
What is being brought out here is the false teaching, extra-biblical teaching, foundational basis’ based on false prophecy, and the “new” paradigm we MUST operate under or we will see the wrath of God. Come on, they are talking about truth here. They are talking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, our Lord.
Does anybody care that Jesus died for us, bled on the cross for us, and was resurrected so that we may have forgiveness and eternal life? The body of Christ today has become so enmeshed in “ME” (i.e. I am the bride (puffed up chest) so I am more special than you, or I can hear the Lord (prophecy) and you can’t, or in 40 days you too can be rich, etc) Does anybody care that we are walking in times that are perilous and there are souls who are still lost?
Where is the sovereignty of God for pete’s sake?
Greycoats – sorry I just had to vent.
March 1, 2008 at 12:31 am
I happened across this page in my wanderings. I’m in no way affiliated with IHOP, other than I watch their daily devotional on GodTV some mornings. I’ve read some of their website.
I have a question… and it’s a serious one.
How do you know that this Pastor Gruen and his grandson are actually the right people? If I’m reading correctly, you’ve only had internet discussions, with no way of confirming identity.
I ask mainly because a few years ago, it was done to me. Someone set up a website with my name on it and invited people to discuss things with them, purporting to be me, in an effort to damage my reputation.
Just food for thought.
March 1, 2008 at 1:18 am
Kathi,
Most of us aren’t fooled so easy.
If I was pastoring in a local community and someone set up a website purporting to be mine, selling books I had written. I think I would know about it and do something about it.
Furthermore, it is very simple to search the internet registration records and find out who is behind the curtain, as it were.
http://who.godaddy.com/WhoIsVerify.aspx?domain=erniegruen.com&prog_id=godaddy
You did know about the WHOIS lookup, didn’t you?
Now, if you lookup the erniegrien.com site you will see the site is maintained by Ronald Gruen of Gruen Computer Services, 213 Barto Dr., St. Louis, MO.
Next if you do a search of the St. Louis Mo GIS website
http://gis.stlouisco.com
and enter 213 Barto Drive, you will find that the parcel is owned by Vicki Gruen (Ron’s wife). I can even give you her mailing address if you’d like. Or look it up yourself (Property Assessment Details)
http://gis.stlouisco.com/search/ur.asp?var1=address&var2=Barto&var3=213&var4=Dr&var5=#10J531605
I guess lastly, the person representing himself as Ernie Gruen (because he IS Ernie Gruen) has done nothing to damage his reputation. Everything he has said is consistant with the reports in various periodicals from the 1990/1991 timeframe that reported on the situation.
Food for thought? Yeah I’ll think about it as I picnic in the “grassy knoll.” I am so tired of the conspiracy theory BS
http://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/2008/02/17/the-much-awaited-interview-with-ernie-gruen/#comment-1357
which keeps coming up on this topic. Let’s give it a rest, please.
March 1, 2008 at 2:39 am
Hey Kathi,
Thanks for dropping by.
We have discussed this very issue in-depth in the comments at : The much awaited Ernie Gruen Interview.
If you look at Ernie’s website, and his Grandson’s, you will see that we would have to go through A LOT to duplicate all of that.
If that doesn’t help out, we’ll be happy to discuss more questions with you.
in Christ, our Only.
Devin Murphy
March 1, 2008 at 2:43 am
Oh, also, after reading your blog on Once save always saved, I’m sure many of us would love to discuss that with you. Not with big long comments, just some short discussions.
Also this isn’t the thread for it, perhaps the “ask away” thread would be good. Because one thing that I and the other moderators agree on, and will take to the grave, that once Christ has saved someone, nothing can snatch us from His hands.
March 1, 2008 at 2:30 pm
Well, I honestly hope when we stand before the Lord, that it’s you that’s right and not me, and that far more people make it to heaven than appears. (and what will you say to Him if you’re wrong?)
Why not just get everyone to sign on the dotted line in Kindergarten then, so there’s no worries? Then everyone can live as they like.
Heck, I could go back to witchcraft and worshiping deities other than Him…
———————-
Oh! But you were on a witch hunt… hmmmm….
Online ID theft is easy (and yes I know all about WHOIS… believe me.)
March 1, 2008 at 2:59 pm
kathie.
we are not hunting witches we are hunting wabbits. and why do you think that you can lose your salvation? i am asking for dialog and not a fight. and yeah identity theft is easy but we have the real deal. look at some of the reasons we gave on the gruen interview post. his grandson has the same emails. he sent the one i posted on recant out in mass to alot of folks. we all got the same email. family friends and us. i mean gosh do we have to have 2 forms of i.d. all the time?
March 1, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Hey Kathi nice sarcasm. If I am not believing in a salvation by Christ’s graceful atoning work which purchases merciful forgiveness and also imputes righteousness to me then I probably won’t be saying much at the day of judgement. Hey, we don’t expect our information to break through every radical-charismatic’s presuppostitional view of reality. However, if just a few are brought to a place of honest questioning, then well, that’ll do.
March 1, 2008 at 5:18 pm
>Online ID theft is easy (and yes I know all about WHOIS… believe me.)
Kathi,
Since you seem to have already determined that we are on a “witch hunt” then I guess that makes your earlier comment “Just food for thought” sort of disingenious, doesn’t it.
If you knew about WHOIS then you should have done your homework before trying to plant seeds of doubt. Better, yet, you should leave planting seeds of doubt to Satan, he is far more skilled at it then you seem to be.
It’s stupid to carry this lame discussion on any further, but if this is some sort of elaborate farse, I might add that the person posing as Gruen’s grandson somehow managed to get himself registered at a state university with an email address that indicates his actual name. Working closely with the IT department at a major state university, I can assure you that type of fraud does not occur.
I hope that did not come across as too rude, but it is hard for me to figure out your motivation for coming across as one who at one moment is “innocently” tossing out food for thought and next hurling the typical witch hunting accusations out.
At the very least you should admit that the evidence against your conspiracy theory is compelling.
Furthermore, if you are going to posit theories about the veracity of the report, please answer YES or NO:
Have you read the Ernie Gruen report?
If the answer is NO (or if you have no reply) then you are way over your head.
March 1, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Kathi, I responded in the “Ask Away” thread
March 8, 2008 at 6:59 pm
I was in the Vineyard at the time of the Ernie Gruen (EG) report. My understanding is that EG had recanted in the sense of having acknowledged that it was not his place to bring correction to KCF. Rather than release a public report, he should first have gone to those having authority or influence over the KCF.
I think EG’s moral failure is relevant to the assessment of his claims. His motives and truthfulness reasonably become suspect in the light of his subsequent actions.
Nevertheless, it was my understanding at the time of publication of the report that there was definitely smoke within KCF if not outright fire. Wimber’s involvement was specifically intended to bring order and accountability out of what had become, or at least had seemed to become, chaos.
Subsequently Mike Bickle acknowledged that leadership and oversight at KCF had been less than ideal. He wrote a book that offered lessons learned about the local church administration of prophecy and prophetic ministers.
My take is that some of this history has been forgotten. And some, having been passed from mouth to ear, has been unintentionally distorted. There was plenty of blame to go around. But what occurred doesn’t necessarily entirely discredit any of those involved. God is still able to bring correction to those who are His. So, I would urge caution in judging Bickle, IHOP. or Gruen based on this sad episode. Instead, we should study to learn what the episode reveals about the Church, ourselves, and our God.
March 8, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Chairos Seeker,
All right. Welcome to the greycoats. Don’t be scared…but do be prepared.
‘I think EG’s moral failure is relevant to the assessment of his claims. His motives and truthfulness reasonably become suspect in the light of his subsequent actions.’
No. You are presenting an ad hominem argument in this case which is most certainly a red herring. Gruen’s morality has no bearing on the truth value of his statement. A man’s moral fortitude may become suspect but an assertion may be true irregardless of moral fortitude. The evidence must be weighed. Hookers make true statements in court. A drug dealer is a credible witness if the evidence is in his favor. Bill Clinton had an affair with Monica Lewinsky. However, does that outside circumstance mean that when Bill Clinton adds two and two that we should question his truthfulness when his answer is four?
Not only that, but you discredit your own position through using faulty logic. When flipped, the same statement would read, “I think [Bob Jones, Paul Cain]’s moral failure is relevant to the assessment of [their] claims. [Their] motives and truthfulness reasonably become suspect in the light of [their] subsequent actions.” However, in the case of Jones and Cain, the name of God is attached to false motives and lack of truthfulness. In addition Jones and Cain have no corroborating evidence (other than their own snake-oil salesmanship) to support their many ‘prophetic’ truth claims, whereas Gruen had the backing of many churches plus individual testimonies. He owned his allegations also, and has accepted their consequences, choosing not to hide behind the name of the Almighty as many do who claim to be ‘the Lord’s annointed.’
You know what? I almost forgot. I have yet to hear or read any valid confession on Gruen’s part of moral misconduct. I really don’t know where your source for that information comes from. I’ve heard a lot of allegations made against him on the blogs but nothing substantial. Nothing like the public spectacle which Cain and Jones have become.
One more thing. If you intend to use the greek noun for ‘appointed occasion’ in your name it should be a K not a Ch. Unless you have some sort of kitschy intention like me. (I use an “n” instead of an “m” in natrimony.)
March 8, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Natrimony
Gruen does admit to his moral failure in our interview. we did not post the question simply because we printed it like we got it with the exceptions of correcting spelling. at the bottom you will see that he says the episode took place years after he wrote his document. which means that it is truly irrelevent . to all who read this. GRUEN WAS NOT FALLEN WHEN HE WROTE THE REPORT! it took place years afterward according to him. also i agree if we use charios seekers logic then it strengthens our case it most certainly does not hurt it.
March 9, 2008 at 3:07 am
Jarrod,
“A personal situation” is a pretty ambiguous phrase. I’m not quite sure I really know what that means.
I don’t know why I waste my time with these drivebys sometimes.
March 9, 2008 at 5:01 am
@Nat, you mistake my position and intention. I am no apologist for Bob Jones or Paul Cain. I am merely trying to correct certain aspects of the historical record and suggest how some apparently inconsistent accounts may be reconciled. I think that doing so is in everyone’s interest, irrespective of their opinion of Cain and Jones.
I must misunderstand: You seem to be arguing that the moral character of a reporter is irrelevant to evaluation of the reporter’s truth claims. Certainly, I disagree with that position. Moreover, my doing so is not an instance of the ad hominem fallacy, which connotes tailoring an otherwise invalid argument to the peculiar sitution of the hearer(s).
I’m frankly puzzled why you’d not think that the moral character of any reporter would be relevant to (though, of course, not solely determinative of) the weighing of his claims. To cite precedent, law courts make place for this (except in ways prohibited by the 5th amendment).
Certainly, prostitutes and criminals sometimes tell the truth. But, I think we agree that those who practice one sort of moral corruption often thereby fall prey to others. You seem to be arguing that the corrupt are more trustworthy than the pure. I’m sure you don’t intend doing so. Perhaps you would be kind enough to clarify. I apologize for having somehow misunderstood, as I’m sure I have.
With respect to Gruen’s claims, I’d say they addressed problems in church leadership more than problems with Cain or Jones. Certainly, the problems originated with Cain, Jones, and others. But, it was the responsibility of pastoral staff to maintain discipline. So, the ethics of Mike Bickle would seem to me to be more directly germane to the situation than those of Cain or Jones.
So far as I know, Bickle has not been found to have morally fallen, though I suppose some might view his theology as sufficiently erroneous to constitute moral failure. Further information on these points would be of interest.
@thegreycoats, nat
Clearly, the time of discovery of a moral fall is less relevant than the time of the fall. Gruen’s fall could well have preceded publication of the report. I’d venture that subsequent events demonstrate that his moral state at the time of publication should be considered unknown.
On a related point, I seem to have again been unclear. I don’t argue that all of Gruen’s claims were false. Quite the contrary, I’ve acknowledged that at least some–perhaps many–of them were valid. But, to accept all his claims as valid on their face would, in my view, be rather credulous.
In offering this opinion, I don’t mean to exonerate Cain, Jones, or even Bickle. It’s just good analysis. If drinking water from the well has a high bacteria count today it quite possibly had one yesterday as well.
@nat, I think the term “driveby” is loaded and unkind. I think it would even qualify as an ad hominem attack of the sort unworthy of someone who nobly aspires to apply logic to his faith, as you obviously do. I respectfully suggest that you reconsider your choice of words.
Also, please note that the word Greek “chairos” is spelled using the letter chi not the letter kappa. So, “ch” is the proper transliteration to the Roman alphabet. That said, I don’t doubt that you’ve seen it transliterated with a “k,” which does better signify the correct pronunciation than does the “ch.”
March 9, 2008 at 8:01 am
Chairos,
If you have read the Gruen report, you have see that the most troubling claims are taken from direct transcriptions of public statements from Bickle, Jones and Cain. The source of these transcriptions was documented. If any of these were fabricated, it would have been easy to discredit the report. To my knowledge, these transcriptions have never been challenged. Gruen’s character, or anyone’s character for that matter, is irrelevant to the accuracy of these transcriptions.
Either they are accurate or not. The attacks on Gruen’s character look awfully suspicious to an outside observer and careful reader of the report. The simplest defense is to simply compare the transcriptions with the referenced source material and discredit Gruen. Why would this not have been done for the sake of truth? Why would Bickle not have set the record straight simply to promote peace in the body of Christ?
I think I know why.
-r
March 9, 2008 at 8:18 am
Chairos,
I was in the Vineyard at the time of the Ernie Gruen (EG) report.
You were at the Vineyard where this took place or in a Vineyard Church? If you were there were you on staff, leadership, or just a member of the church?
“My understanding is that EG had recanted in the sense of having acknowledged that it was not his place to bring correction to KCF. Rather than release a public report, he should first have gone to those having authority or influence over the KCF.
You understand because you were there or are you sharing something that you got second hand from someone else? Secondly, I was under the impression from the report that EG did go to them first before he wrote the report. Are you saying from first hand knowledge that this is not the case?
March 9, 2008 at 8:37 am
Responding to post #30…
I disagree also with the logic of the persons moral characture in this particular incident or issue having anything to do with the truth of the report.
If the report was written with transcripts from tapes, notes testamonies of the actual issues then it seems to me that the document except for the points that he did apologize for are indeed factual. And if the issue of what ever the “personal matter” was happened in a time well after the fact of the document, then it has no bearing on the document.
I guess if we follow the logic of what you are stating then King David, after his sin with Bathseba, even after he repented, would make what he wrote (Psalms) not anymore truthful because of his moral characture. Even though he was a man after Gods own heart. We might as well take the book out of the bible.
Of course with that stated, then we should accept the repentece of Paul Cain, but because I/we do doesn’t mean I have to trust him. The fruit will tell if he is still teaching and preaching false doctine in the days ahead.
March 9, 2008 at 9:16 pm
“CH”airos,
Don’t get all huffy now. So you’re not a driveby eh? Where did you get your definition for ‘ad hominem fallacy’–wikipedia? Ad hominem means ‘against the person’ recheck the location of your term. Yes, within the realm of informal logic (evidence theory) character witnesses are admittable sources of testimony. The practice has such weak results though that only defense attornies grasping at straws utilize ‘character witness’ strategies. But, maybe you are acquainted with the legal system in a way that I am not and can provide proof otherwise (I don’t own many historical journals of U.S. juridical precedent).
>But, I think we agree that those who practice one sort of moral corruption often thereby fall prey to others. You seem to be arguing that the corrupt are more trustworthy than the pure. I’m sure you don’t intend doing so.>
I don’t agree. A tax evader is not more likely to kill his wife than the Acting Commissioner of the IRS. And, I don’t appreciate the attempt at framing my argument. The actual events of Gruen’s allegations must be addressed. What about the church endorsement which accompanied Gruen’s testimony? What did he have to gain, he pastored a very large and successful church during that period–how was Bickle a personal threat to the extent that Gruen would care to lay his own rep. on the line to assassinate Bickle’s character. But, if attention can be diverted from these questions then dealing with the content of Gruen’s allegations can be more easily circumvented.
So, we could continue arguing about arguing but I really don’t want to spend my Sunday afternoon in that pursuit. Bickle’s pastoral ethic and discernment is certainly under indictment by his endorsment of such characters as Jones and Cain. Not to mention the organization which he founded–IHOP–on the foundation of the flash in the pan hucksterism seen in the KCP phenomena of the early ’90’s. Bickle struggles to maintain legitimacy within evangelicalism without paying proper attention to the faulty Neo-Montanist roots of his own construct. Sadly, he has convinced a generation (most of whom were between 0 and 10 during the KCP debacle) inculcated by relativism that his new teachings are valid due to the influence of such ‘prophetically gifted’ individuals as Cain and Jones. If Cain and Jones (among others) are truly the foundation of Bickle’s influence then there is much to be said indeed. I personally don’t think that anyone need ‘dig up’ any dirt on Bickle other than what is plainly in sight, but which has been artfully redecorated and explained away with over-spiritualized doublespeak and Post-Modern platitudes. I say, give the unsanitized version of the prophetic history, warts and all, and let the young IHOP inductees decide from there.
Don’t argue Greek with me man. I was trying to poke fun at myself and be nice by bringing that up. But, do you honestly think I would have said anything if I weren’t sure of my grammar? Check Matthew 8.29, Mark 1.14, Rom. 5.6, etc. in the Nestle-Aland or the USB and see that kairos is spelled with a kappa—καιρός . You can find a pretty comprehensive working definition here:
http://english.ttu.edu/kairos/layers/metaphor.html
Please. The fact that you can’t tell a kappa from a chi is more than enough evidence that you enjoy talking about things that you don’t really comprehend. And, I mean that in the kindest way possible.
March 9, 2008 at 9:32 pm
TJ,
Accepting repentance and restoration to preaching positions which effect other honest believer’s lives are two different things. Temporal activity yields temporal consequence. In Jones’ case he used his ‘gift’ to persuade women to provide him with private pleasure. Cain used prophetic visions to validate his celibacy thereby masking his affinity for same-sex attraction. How could a church or church leaders ever place them in positions of influence within the body of Christ again? It is simply ludicrous.
March 9, 2008 at 10:16 pm
#35
I agree with you but in my attempt to answer my own arguement/debate/statement in this I could see where someone might take what I said and say something to the effect that if David was forgiven should we then not forgive also.
Personal experience of a church leader that I knew who was convicted of rape/molestation who came to the church after he had served his time and asked forgiveness, recieved it from us because we interpreted the scriptures that we must, BUT, we also stated after the meeting with the person, actually to his face, that we can forgive him but we didn’t have to trust him and he would no longer be allowed to minister in the church in the capacity he had done in the past. he was also given guidelines if he was to stay. If over time he followed these guidelines and proved his trustworthiness to us, he would be allowed back in ministry.
He chose not to stay because we did not embrace him fully and just let him back in a place that would be of danger for himself as well as others. My point being, I can because I believe the bible tells us to forgive, forgive these men but at the same time it will be a long, long time before I would ever trust them in a position as a “PROPHET” in the church, if there were even such a thing today.
Since these men still teach the heresy as stated in 1948 by the AG church, the neo-montanist error and it is obvious that they will until their last breath (unless the Lord performs a miracle) then I stand on the foundation that the fruit has not changed therfore they are in error and teaching false biblical/extra-biblical interpretations.
I was addressing the whole lne of thought about what ever the “personal issue” was with EG. I did not agree with post 30 and agreed totally with post 31
March 9, 2008 at 10:38 pm
TJ,
Good words.
March 9, 2008 at 10:57 pm
TJ,
Yup.
March 9, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Chairos Seeker,
I think to end this all, I’ll just write a report called “The Ernie Gruen Report – 20 years later.” If I can keep my self squeeky-clean maybe it won’t be discounted. Wait a minute- even if I fall, it would still be true…. What ever shall we do?
Oh I get it- how ’bout we judge things against the WORD OF GOD? Yeah, that’s the ticket – we could call it a “plumbline.”
Much better.
March 10, 2008 at 12:21 am
Folks, you’re making wrong inferences about my opinion. I’m sure I’ve contributed to that by taking some positions that you reject. But, I’ve done so only because I’m concerned to be intellectually honest and fair. Quibbles about evidence and argumentation aside, I come to the same conclusion as most of you here: the EG report was substantially accurate. Even Bickle’s own book Growing in the Prophetic would substantiate significant errors, excesses, and problems of accountability. If you haven’t read it, I’d suggest that you do so.
I was only trying to explain that claims that EG had recanted have some basis in fact. While he doesn’t seem ever to have denied the truthfulness of his accusations, many or most of which I emphasize that I agree were true, he did stand down when Wimber became involved. As I see it, and as was explained to me at the time, he acknowledged that he did not having standing to discipline Bickle. In that very limited sense, he recanted having publicly made the charges, while continuing to insist that his charges were accurate.
I think this nuance has led to misunderstanding of the disposition of his charges. Both those who say the charges were never withdrawn and those who say they were withdrawn each have a piece of the truth.
If you incorrectly understand my statement as an attempt to vindicate Cain or Jones, I’m unsure how I can respond. It doesn’t vindicate or even defend them. But, I think it shows how some folks, particularly those who’ve come along after the fact, can innocently and even rightly claim that EG’s charges were withdrawn.
Even though I agree that EG’s claims were substantially correct, I think it’s important to emphasize that the best reason they can be accepted is because they can generally be externally corroborated, not because of EG’s trustworthiness. Arguments that he fell after he made the charges or that he was an adulterer but not a liar don’t have much power to convince.
Nat, I apologize for my error in Greek transliteration and for incorrectly construing your tone, as is so easily done in blogspace. As you point out, I’ve apparently been waylaid by a common transliteration error. I see “chairos” much more often than “kairos.” I can’t think why that is. Maybe it’s by attraction to “chronos” (time).
Knowing the similar word chairos (joy), I didn’t bother looking at my Greek text when I created the handle. But, you shouldn’t infer from a spelling error that I don’t know the alphabet. Fact is, it seems that I’m comfortable enough with Greek to sometimes fail to check the text when I should. In any case, thanks for pointing out the error. Maybe I will follow your lead and consider “chairos” a happy conflation of “chairo” and “kairos.” I do rather like that.
If any of my remarks seem to have been unkind, I apologize. Frankly, some of the remarks aimed at me hurt. And, while I tried to put aside that hurt, I may not have entirely succeeded. One’s feelings tend to leak out regardless how one’s conscious mind disposes otherwise. Nevertheless, any falling short of God’s fully unconditional love is sin.
Folks, I agree with much of what you say. In fact, we’re on the same side of most of the questions related to these issues. We disagree here and there with methods and the way we evaluate certain evidence.
But, the tone of so many remarks here is not Christlike. If you’ll forgive me for saying so, you seem to be congratulating one another on correctly seeing the truth rather than helping others to see what you’ve seen. You’d be much more effective in ministry to the undiscerning if you’d take a gentler tone with those who enter the discussion, especially those who generally agree with you.
There’s no need to hide your observations or arguments. Just consider treating folks with a little more respect, even if though don’t seem to be using their minds or otherwise deserve it. Gratuitous words and phrases such as “Wikipedia” and “driveby” are not edifying. At least, I wasn’t edified by them.
I know I have logs in my own eyes, even if I can’t see them. And, if you’d like to point out some of them, I’d be grateful. I’m not trying to tear you folks down. I’m trying to build you up.
At this point, you can count me in the “driveby” column.
Peace,
March 10, 2008 at 2:34 am
Chairos seeker,
Hey, the debate was just getting good. I thought you weren’t a driveby?
>Even though I agree that EG’s claims were substantially correct, I think it’s important to emphasize that the best reason they can be accepted is because they can generally be externally corroborated, not because of EG’s trustworthiness.<
That not what you said to begin with which was:
>I think EG’s moral failure is relevant to the assessment of his claims. His motives and truthfulness reasonably become suspect in the light of his subsequent actions.
“You’d be much more effective in ministry to the undiscerning if you’d take a gentler tone with those who enter the discussion”
When addressing the ‘undiscerning’ (people with honest questions, doubts, unsophisticated positions, etc.) we are markedly patient. However, you take a position making a somewhat convincing rhetorical argument and obviously display a wider scope of knowledge on the topic than some. So, sorry your feelings are hurt but if you are going to bring an argument be prepared to defend it. Sarcasm is a rhetorical tool. Oh and thanks for the ‘unChristlike’ label. I’m not surprised you would resort to that. I can empathize with how much it stings when an argument is disproven and I drop a peg in my own mind. Kind of makes me want to start calling names too sometimes
You know,I don’t really have any ‘logs’ to point out. But,if you think of more ways to ‘build us up’ maybe you could just dispense with the pleasantries and speak plainly.
March 10, 2008 at 3:04 am
I am still curious to know if you were there Charios? At the very church this happened at?
March 10, 2008 at 4:37 am
TJ, I apologize for seeming to have ignored your query. It got lost amidst some of the issues related to process and tone.
Yes, I was at the Anaheim Vineyard during and after Bob Jones’ dismissal. I was not an employee of the church and don’t claim privileged knowledge. For the most part, I know only what the church leadership announced.
John Wimber did not even speak from the pulpit the sin which Bob Jones had committed and warranted his immediate dismissal. He felt that it would be debasing even to mention it. So, I learned certain details second hand and later corroborated them with, for example, Rick Joyner’s frank account.
After 15+ years, my recollection of some details may be less than perfect. But, I’ll respond as best I can to any follow-up question you pose so long as I can answer it more or less objectively.
BTW, I think you and others here would find interesting discrepancies between Rick Joyner’s account and the account given by Bob Jones at Morningstar’s 2007 Spiritual Warfare and Deliverance Conference, which is freely available on the Manna Reserve web site. If you can tell me how to discreetly exchange e-mail addresses, I will e-mail you the 10-minute excerpt in question, which runs only about 975k.
One reason I stopped by was to learn whether others here have noted these discrepancies, which I think may explain how some innocently but wrongly approve Bob Jone’s past moral character. Unfortunately, I got sidetracked by a debate.
March 10, 2008 at 7:44 am
tjsmith5255@yahoo.com
March 14, 2008 at 7:45 am
What say, TJ: did you hear what I heard? I’m hoping to avoid having to listen to the clip a second time, as I found it distressing to listen the first time. . . .
March 14, 2008 at 7:52 am
CS,
I apologize I haven’t listened to it yet. I have been very busy at work and also preparing for this weekend service at church (helping lead worship).
Be patient please, I actually will have time to listen Saturday morning and then I will respond.
LOL- PTL- WWJD – DWJD – JF
TJ
March 14, 2008 at 1:09 pm
Charios
therodofjah@gmail.com
March 14, 2008 at 5:08 pm
CS,
I listened last night to the MP3 of the Bob Jones interview, made a copy of the MP3 and listened again this morning in the car.
1st let me say that I am not one who believes in blaming Satan for our own choices. Bob Jones surely attempted to absolved himself other than to say anger took root and he became bitter. Again his choice. I really felt like this was an attempt to put a supernatural spin on an ungly situation that HE did.
Mat 15:16 And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 “Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?[fn4] 18 “But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 “For out of the heart come [all] evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 “These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
So when Bob ones says that he still feels at that time that he did nothing wrong, if he was walking down the street undressing women and being lustful, that was his choice to take that road, the temptation that maybe satan put in his mind and when his (Bob Jones) sinful nature and desires to hold of it, he sinned. He stated later that he wasn’t going to enter into adultry. He already did so just by thinking it as he walked down the street.
The other thing is, he (Bob Jones) didn’t deliver anyone. He gave absolutely no credit to the One who “gave him authority” over these demons he cast out.
I also think it was a very telling thing that John Wimber gave Bob Jones plane tickets and then seperated himself from the man. In the post from EG he states that John Wimber called him (EG) and told him he (EG) was right and he shouldn’t have gotten involved with Mike Bickle.
Now that I have pointed those two things out, I need to read your post above and then see if I heard what you heard from the interview. More to come.
TJ
March 14, 2008 at 6:50 pm
TJ, I concur in your observations. I also found no mention in Jones’ account of the event/events that took place at the Anaheim Vineyard, which were the cause of his being shipped out. Jones’ seems to me to be claiming that his lust never gave way to action, which is patently false.
As a reminder, the full interview is available on the Manna Reserve web site. In marking out the clip, I did my best to ensure that all relevant information was included.
P.S. I don’t have reason to doubt that Jones’ symptoms may have begun after exposure to one or more particularly powerful demons. However, the extent to which that might absolve him is unclear to me. Certainly, a Christian can’t get a free pass by claiming “a demon made me do it” and “I was exposed to the demon only because you made me pray for really oppressed people.”
March 14, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Potential correction: Jones’ does mention being the subject of false accusations. He may intend to allege that he never abused the woman and her daughter whose charges were accepted by John Wimber.
March 14, 2008 at 7:41 pm
CS
I thought of that after I wrote, in that he (Bob Jones) said that the Lord, Holy Spirit, angel (not sure who was talking to him as he mentions all three) said that there would be accusations made about him that would be false accusations. So with that statement, then the women and her daughter are made out to be liers.
Not that false accusations haven’t been made before in other situations as these even in the world but seems convenient to be able to make these statements as a “prophet” and “anointed one” and therefore using the “saith the Lord” to 1) aquit oneself and 2) self reconciliation to the church.
TJ
March 14, 2008 at 7:42 pm
“Jones’ seems to me to be claiming that his lust never gave way to action, which is patently false.
He thought it and according to our Lord that is the same as doing it even if he thinks he didn’t. He did admit to physically kissing her. WHAT JUNK!
March 14, 2008 at 8:35 pm
TJ, I agree that lust is, in the eyes of the Lord, as serious a sin as adultery. But, we don’t generally discipline church members who fall short of acting out their sinful thoughts. So, if true, Jones’ claims would be relevant to the handling of his restoration. However, I find no evidence that a process of restoration was conducted under the authority of any local church. And, I’m extremely skeptical of his claims that he didn’t act out apart from a kiss.
To be fair to Jones, a report by Rick Joyner (given time, I can find the URL) was frank in admitting the Jones had seriously sinned in action and had wrong the woman and her daughter. So, at one point, Jones was forthright in admitting his wrongs.
The relevance I attach to the interview is that folks who hear it but don’t know the full history can be led to form an impression of Jones’ fall that isn’t complete or accurate. I recently heard a TV host praise Jones as one who had “never wavered.” Such erroneous statements may derive from the incomplete picture given in this interview, at which Rick Joyner and possibly Jack Deere were present. I’d really like to know how they’d put this together.
March 14, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Argg!!! I just typed an answer to you CS and hit the wrong key and it all went bye bye.. Here we again…
CS
“..The relevance I attach to the interview is that folks who hear it but don’t know the full history can be led to form an impression of Jones’ fall that isn’t complete or accurate. I recently heard a TV host praise Jones as one who had “never wavered.” Such erroneous statements may derive from the incomplete picture given in this interview, at which Rick Joyner and possibly Jack Deere were present. I’d really like to know how they’d put this together.
Got ya!
I suppose most of that camp (prophetic, dominion, MSOG, etc) probably use the standard thought that there are many in the Bible that were men of God and even though they may have fallen in sin they were still used of God so the same with Bob Jones.
And why tell the whole truth and admit to anything. When you supernatural-ize the whole thing and you have a whole group of people who either don’t know the scriptures, or how to test the spirit, and are just looking towards these men as “anointed”, they can get away with anything or say just about anuthing and it is believed.
David and Bathsheba, Solomon and the mixed marriages and following after their false gods, and others. Yes God used them but the consequences seemed to fall either on the next generation or they were slain.
If I put myself in this picture as a one time follower of the teachings that come from these men and the fact that I became mentally numb to the truth. I would say that I put it together by believing these high profile people who make up tehse statements were indeed “men of God” who wouldn’t or couldn’t be decieved and decieving and I would accept whatthey said as truth. I would have never ever thought of researching or questioning what they said. Man, it’s alot different for me now.
March 14, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Jones admitted to “Sexual misconduct (not adultery)”
[Jones] also confessed to using his ministry position to manipulate the women and in divisive and slanderous activities in the church.
(Metro Vineyard) Leaders also detailed plans for counseling and caring for the two women involved.
Christianity Today March 9, 1992
Bob Jones is one of the Kansas City Prophets. Seen by some as the most controversial of the Kansas City Prophets. Was removed from the Vineyard Anaheim because of sexual improprieties, which consisted of encouraging women to undress in his office so they could stand “naked before the Lord” in order to receive a “word.” Still active today, with the abundant support of Rick Joyner. Jones is a major proponent of Latter Rain and Manifest Sons theology.
http://www.cephas-library.com/evangelists/bob_jones_shepherd_rod.html
March 15, 2008 at 1:03 am
Bill, I think the CT account is essentially accurate. I note that it makes no mention of counseling/discipline for Jones, whom I understand from his interview to have moved to Florida after his dismissal. I do think it’s important to note that Rick Joyner’s account concurs in Jones having abused (my word) the women. That is my main point in encouraging comparison between the Joyner’s account and the interview, which seems to gloss over or omit the incident at Anaheim.
I suppose that some could argue that the written record is so clear and explicit that Jones need not give a full account every time he explains what transpired. But, I do not agree. I would hope that if–God forbid–I should ever be in such a place, that the main points of my message would be my personal unworthiness and the grace/mercy of God. I would also hope that I would offer no excuses or reasons for my failure. Owning those points would, I think, be minimal conditions precedent to restoration, let alone restoration to ministry.
FWIW, I’ve heard (on MP3) Paul Cain recently preach just such a message. Not that such a message disposes of all related issues. I am troubled by details of Cain’s (alleged) restoration. However, at least in his case there was a process, even if the process was rather secretive and possibly less than credible. And, at least, he forthrightly admits his sin. However, I am mindful of the joint statement by Bickle, Deere, and Joyner that unprecedented levels of deception and manipulation hindered their attempts to minister to Cain after discovery of his sin.
I am simply amazed that anyone without personal knowledge of the skills and character of Cain’s restoration team would accord the team or its claim of completed restoration any confidence or credibility. I’d really like the opportunity to dialog with such an individual. Takers?
March 15, 2008 at 1:12 am
Oops, I see that address tags are not permitted. Here’s the URL for Joyner’s report:
http://www.harvestnet.org/lookback/GUP.htm
March 15, 2008 at 5:43 pm
CS,
That was just an excerpt of the the article, and even the excerpt mentioned counseling. The article was a sidebar to a bigger article on Wimber. My copy is on a server elsewhere and I can’t download it from home on dial-up.
I think that further detail on the misconduct, and a continued rehashing of those details could and would be harmful to the women involved. Of course, I also think that Jones does the church a dis-service by not retiring and perhaps getting a job as a greeter at Wal-Mart (which would be the perfect job for him, BTW).
I find this troubling:
“He had prayed for a spirit of lust to be broken off of a well-known evangelist, but he had done this without permission from the Lord. In Bob’s words, when he did this it “jumped on” him, and he could not shake it.”
Because I don’t understand why anyone would need the Lord’s permission to pray good things for another. And where is God in all of this? Does he reward such things by allowing His prophet to be overcome by this demon?
Quite frankly this is the Flip Wilson argument (“The devil made me do it”).
And why did it take the prayers of Mahesh Chavda to break it? Is God a respector of persons? I’ve had Mahesh pray for me, and well, he’s just Mahesh.
On the topic of restoration, I can list example after example of men who boasted that they were accountable. Yet when they fell, after a period of denial, they finally chose to undergo restoration. Every time they CHANGED who they were accountable to and selected another group of leaders. Perhaps that is human nature, but is makes ANY claims of accountability suspect.
March 15, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Bill,
“That was just an excerpt of the the article, and even the excerpt mentioned counseling.”
I saw reference to counseling of the victims but didn’t see reference to counseling for Jones. Do I correctly understand that the original source mentions plans for Jones’ restoration? If so, is there any information on whether those were carried out? In that event, I’d wish to retract my good-faith claims of skepticism regarding process.
“I think that further detail on the misconduct, and a continued rehashing of those details could and would be harmful to the women involved.”
If I understand correctly, you’re suggesting that Jones may have been exercising appropriate discretion in omitting details of the Anaheim incident? I do see your point. But, it seems to me that Jones would have referred to the incident in a general way or otherwise have avoided giving the impression that his sins were only/mainly in thought rather than action. I do recognize that it’s easier to dissect a talk than give one. But, I myself would have been speaking with notes that ensured that I covered the key points.
“Because I don’t understand why anyone would need the Lord’s permission to pray good things for another.”
There’s a notion that one shouldn’t engage a demon without the Lord’s explicit permission. It’s considered one thing to pray and another to minister deliverance. This does make sense to me. I’ve received this very advice from folks experienced in deliverance ministry.
“And why did it take the prayers of Mahesh Chavda to break it? Is God a respector of persons?”
There’s a notion that it’s unsafe to pray deliverance solo. So, the emphasis shouldn’t be on Mahesh personally but on having a brother/sister present. This does make sense to me.
“Every time they CHANGED who they were accountable to and selected another group of leaders. Perhaps that is human nature, but is makes ANY claims of accountability suspect.”
Yup. Theology of the local church seems to me to be one of the key points in such matters.
March 15, 2008 at 10:13 pm
it seems to me that to blame a demon or poor wimber for the lust of your own flesh is a lot like Adam in the garden. No God it wasnt my fault it was the woman ,no it wasnt my fault it was the serpeant. that is not repentence that is passing the buck. hmm. no personal responsability. does it bother anyone that Jones took no personal responsibility but essentially blamed it on Wimber for praying out of turn? how can one be restored with a confession like that? is there such a lack of wisdom in the church? hmm these are questions they are not meant to be read as rhetorical.what happened was wrong and i have read the news reports and wimbers own account of discipline on the matter. what i havent seen is an actual confession with contrition. but who am i right ?
March 16, 2008 at 2:02 am
>There’s a notion that one shouldn’t engage a demon without the Lord’s explicit permission
Well, since these guys only claim a 66% sucess rate in hearing from the Lord, that means even if they THINK they have the Lord’s permission, they are in deep do-do 34% of the time.
I mean, what, do they get a signed slip or something?
Seems like the bible says “Greater is he that is in me, then he that is in the world.” That said, I don’t think any mature Christian would have anything to fear with a demonic encounter, period.
No the empahsis was on Mahesh. I take it from the artcile that Rick Joyner was praying. If he felt he needed to have a brother with him praying, it could have been the closest usher, for pete’s sake.
Quoting Joyner: I did not want to make the same mistake that he had by trying to take authority over something that powerful alone, so I found Mahesh Chavda, and we prayed together for it to be broken off of him.
Seems to me like he LOOKED for the big gun. Which goes against my theology- the power is in JESUS, no the person praying.
Funny Mahesh story- he was praying for a friend of mine, and really pushing on him. My friend did not go down, Mahesh pushed more. Finally my friend raised his eyebrows and shrugged, and Mahesh walked on. You had to be there.
-Bill
March 16, 2008 at 2:42 am
“what i havent seen is an actual confession with contrition.”
The account by Joyner seems to me to indicate contrition. One could argue that it’s second hand. But, I’m not sure Jones has the language skills to write a properly contrite report.
In any case, I don’t think that our inability to spot contrition is all that relevant. What matters is the opinion of those responsible for Jones’ discipline and restoration and our assessment of their credibility. But, I’m unsure who they are and what they did. So, I end up in the same place you’re at, albeit by a somewhat different route.
Please bear in mind that my intention in pointing out this interview wasn’t to criticize Jones or those to whom he was/is responsible, whoever they are. I was trying to demonstrate that someone hearing only that interview could come away with a relatively favorable impression of Jones that downplays the extent and significance of his fall. That may explain why he’s welcome in so many places today.
March 16, 2008 at 5:00 am
“I don’t think any mature Christian would have anything to fear with a demonic encounter, period.”
From the standpoint of systematic theology, I agree that your argument is sound. But, folks I’ve interacted with who are experienced in deliverance ministry tend to take a more cautious approach. My guess is that they’ve learned the hard way that pride and presumption sometimes sneak up on the best of us–maybe particularly on the best of us. So, they tend to recommend first trying to get a sense of what God may be doing before taking on a deliverance case.
With respect to accuracy in hearing God, I’d suggest you’re working with soft numbers that don’t provide a basis for the sort of extrapolation you offer. I think the KCF folks were estimating accuracy of personal and large-scale prophetic words rather than accuracy of discerning God’s will in a ministry situation. Moreover, I’m personally not very confident that their estimates were well founded. And, even if they were accurate in one time and place I doubt that they generalize well.
I think one could reasonably presume that God wants to free a brother/sister from a demon. But, it seems prudent to ask Him. If He says “NO” in upper-case letters it might be worth reconsidering the situation. (I don’t mean to suggest that a Christian can be possessed by a demon. That’s a whole rabbit trail in its own right. I do believe that a Christian can be harassed and even influenced by demonic activity. However, he/she remains accountable for his/her acts irrespective of external influence.)
“Seems to me like he LOOKED for the big gun. Which goes against my theology- the power is in JESUS, no the person praying.”
I agree that he sought the most skilled and experienced partner available. My original comment goes not to the choice of partner but the advisability of having a partner.
I suspect there’s no theological difference here concerning the source of power. It’s just that, even in an area of giftedness or power, one tends to operate more effectively after opportunity to learn from experience. Even if you believe in a gift of preaching (prophecy) you’re likely to prefer listening to a seasoned preacher rather than a seminarian.
This isn’t an absolute principle, of course. An analogous claim would be that, with time to advance in maturity, one can become more effective in prayer. God being sovereign and gracious, He can and does often answer even badly put and wrongly intended prayers of spiritually immature folks. But, the spiritually mature are more likely to pray effectively; that is, according to God’s will.
March 16, 2008 at 5:00 am
Well, I did get the article downloaded and will reproduce it below. I would be curious to see if I can find the 6 page report mentioned, but of course, it was published before the internet really took off, so its back to the library.
-Bill
Christianity Today March 9, 1992
Kansas City ‘Prophet’ Disciplined
Vineyard leaders took strong steps recently to discipline well known “prophet” Bob Jones (CT, Jan. 14, 1991, p. 18), after Jones admitted to “Sexual misconduct (not adulter)” with two women. Jone (no relation to the founding family of Bob Jones University in South Carolina) also confessed to using his ministry position to manipulate the women and in divisive and slanderous activities in the church.
A detailed, six-page time line of Jones’s fall and subsequent disciplining process was sent to church leaders and Christian Media worldwide in early December 1991. “We, the national Vineyard leadership, believe that the rebuke of a leader discovered sinning should be published at a level commensurate with his visibility and ministry,” explained John Wimber in an accompanying letter.
As part of the disciplinary process, Jones is not allowed to come to church meetings for at least six months, to do any form of ministry, or to have any contact with any member of the church not formally appointed to meet and visit with him and his wife. Ten families in the church were appointed to visit the Joneses regularly and help facilitate thier restoration. Vineyard leadership also is suporting the Joneses through regular counseling, visits by the Kansas City Metro Vineyard leadership, and monetary contributions.
Metro pastor David Ravenhill told Christianity Today that the restoration process may take two years or more. He sail Jones probably will no longer affiliate with the Metro Vineyard. Leaders also detailed plans for counseling and caring for the two women.
March 16, 2008 at 7:41 am
Bill, good catch! I have access to the CT library but it seemed to begin about one year to late to access the article. Text in the article was helpful to me in construction of a Google search that turned up more information, available at:
http://wayofthelordchurch.org/20.html
The thumbnails at the right are links to two PDF documents. One is a local newspaper article concerning Jones’ fall. The other is a letter giving some details concerning Jones’ restoration process.
Based on the letter, I have to withdraw certain of my statements regarding Jones’ restoration. I am troubled that he has been restored to such a prominent ministry. But, it appears that the planned process was appropriately followed.
I’ll now use quotes from these sources to try to locate the AVC letter/press release.
March 16, 2008 at 7:54 am
CS
Please bear in mind that my intention in pointing out this interview wasn’t to criticize Jones or those to whom he was/is responsible, whoever they are. I was trying to demonstrate that someone hearing only that interview could come away with a relatively favorable impression of Jones that downplays the extent and significance of his fall. That may explain why he’s welcome in so many places today.
When, again, was this interview? If it was a couple of years after the fact, then could it be that he has had time to “fleshly” come up with a “The Lord is doing…” word in order to explain away the incident and if there has been enough time that had gone by between the incident and those he was speaking to, not to many people would know about it.
Same type of thing within the A/G church in where I was reading about the stance of the church towards the “Latter Rain Theology” and how it was considered a heresy. Now it is being more readily accepted because the old stalwarts (sp) of the church who had made that proclamation have died and now this newer generation of leaders are more accepting and the statements in the General Assembly have been revised or removed and we see the Latter Rain teachers at some of the pulpits of the A/G church these days.
March 16, 2008 at 1:17 pm
cs
its ok to criticize. we all need it some times. while i understand the reluctance to it i also see the need for it. tozer said we should listen to the criticisms of our enemies as well as our friends but more so our enemies for they may be more useful since they are not moved by sympathy for us. if the criticism is wrong move on. if its true you do something about it. and at the end of the day it is not for us to decide if someone repents enough or not. thats Gods business . however i have been studying king saul and he confessed to his sin after his excuses for all the wrong reasons. he didnt want to lose honor from men. i dont know if this is the case with jones or not but that interview is telling. as far as praying for demon removal goes. if God is for us who can be against us. we dont need permission to cast them from us or our brethren as if they had any authority over us in Christ. you know who makes up those ideas? they do.the apostles never asked for permission and none of the men of God i have known who truly and i stress the word truly walk in this area ask for permission either. they throw the interlopers out. and ya know what? its usually in a quiet un assuming way. i have seen little men in stature tell demon possesed folks to be quiet and sit down in the name of Christ and low and behold they obey. why cause its not the man its the God behind the man. i have known men and missionaries who would blanch at the idea of a believer being attacked by a devil cause one of his brothers prayed for his deliverence without permission. i have heard failures at deliverence say well i guess God wants them in there and shrug and walk away cause demon told tse them they had no right to remove it. ah faithless and perverse generation… taking the word of the devil over the word of God. pray and fast until they flee. its the lion of Judah that gets em running and if He is in you then trust and pray. but oy vey never listen to the enemy of course he will say stuff like you need permission or you are not strong enough. to that i say your right i am not strong enough but i know one who is He sits at the right hand of God and he will cast you out not me.
March 16, 2008 at 11:39 pm
TJSmith: “When, again, was this interview?”
It was sometime in 2007. Toward the end of the year, I think. So, it was almost 10 years after Jones was released from discipline, according to the letter cited upthread.
thegreycoats: “Its ok to criticize.”
Roger that. It’s just that I sometimes seem to have the spiritual gift of criticism
, so I want to reserve my ammo for those times when I feel special conviction or need.
“we dont need permission to cast them from us”
You and I seem to have common ground in preferring deliverance to be performed gently and with regard for the dignity of them victim. The asking of God is not a question of strength and permission so much as time and place. Also, there’s the issue of how. Often, demonic influence is associated with sin, which needs to be discovered and confessed. Once that’s done, deliverance tends to go more smoothly.
I certainly wouldn’t infer that God wants a demon to remain in any case nor would I be content to leave one in place. Really, all I’m saying is that it’s wise to solicit God’s wisdom and listen to Him before initiating deliverance or, for that matter, ministry of any kind. I understood Joyner’s account as consistent with that thinking. Since much of my thinking about these issues is rooted in Wimber’s teaching, I have some reason to anticipate common elements between Joyner’s thinking and my own. I could be reading my own views into his statements. There’s always that risk.
OTOH, please don’t misunderstand me as a general apologist for Joyner. For one thing, I’m premillienial and at least moderately dispensational whereas he seems to be rather extremely postmillenial. So, I strongly question Jones’ and Joyner’s visions and teachings about the end times.
BTW, I’ve had only about five encounters with folks I think were likely influenced/oppressed by demons. I don’t want to sound as though I think I’m an expert. I’m not and I know that I’m not. But, I’ve trained under some folks with extensive experience and tend to respect their opinions in such matters.
March 17, 2008 at 7:15 am
Bill: “Funny Mahesh story- he was praying for a friend of mine, and really pushing on him. My friend did not go down, Mahesh pushed more. Finally my friend raised his eyebrows and shrugged, and Mahesh walked on. You had to be there.”
Thanks for sharing that story. I find it simultaneously (1) funny and (2) disturbing with respect to Mahesh. I can’t quite get why people–other than televangelists–would push on people in that fashion. Is it insecurity, ego, misplaced desire to catalyze ministry, or what? No matter the reason for the practice, I see it as akin to “strange fire.”
March 18, 2008 at 7:04 am
Bill–
Do you know if Jones’ wife, who is spoken of in that article is dead or did they divorce, because i know Bonnie Kost and him have only been married a couple years.
I ask this because divorce and remarriage in leadership has always been just the height of hypocracy for me (unless of course there was a just reason– in his wife’s case she’d have had a LOT of reason to dump his sorry butt) he’s the bee’s knees to many of those in the prophetic movement and that on top of the misconduct is SUCH a bad example to these folks.
But anymore, ANYTHING GOES with these people– they’ll proof text their way out of being held accountable for their actions. Bob Jones even pulled a Flip Wilson (the devil made me do it) with the misconduct charge.
It grosses me out that creeps like him are allowed back into leadership positions.
March 18, 2008 at 7:05 am
(unless of course there was a just reason– in his wife’s case she’d have had a LOT of reason to dump his sorry butt)
Let me expound on that— biblically he shouldnt have gotten remarried if this is the case, If his wife died then he could.
March 18, 2008 at 4:06 pm
I don’t know and I’m not too interested.
I don’t have to look any further than the odd prophetic practices to find trouble.
March 18, 2008 at 6:29 pm
True dat!
March 18, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Bill: “I don’t have to look any further than the odd prophetic practices to find trouble.”
In view of odd OT prophetic practices such as going around naked (more or less common today, but not then), marrying a disloyal whore, or cooking one’s food over burning dung, I’m unsure that odd practices are enough to mark a prophet as false. But, again, I don’t mean to defend the prophecies of Jones or Cain, many of which seem to me to contradict Scripture. Incompatibility with Scripture is, I think, the most reliable test of an alleged prophet/prophecy. Of course, applying that test entails holding one’s fallible interpretation/exegesis as the standard, which is somewhat risky. That standard didn’t work out well for the Pharisees. But, I myself know of no better test.
March 18, 2008 at 11:29 pm
C.S.
you cant have it both ways. theses guys are either real ot prophets or they are not. if they are then we need to get our rocks out cause they gotta be right all the time.if they arent then why liosten to these folks at all?
March 19, 2008 at 12:39 am
TGC: “you cant have it both ways.”
With due respect, I think you confuse my concern for method with my conclusions. I think you and I generally share the same view of these guys. But, I want to bust them on a felony rather than a misdemeanor or, worse yet, present a faulty case the judge would throw out.
The point I’m trying to get at isn’t whether or not these guys are real prophets. It’s how we make that determination. I don’t think odd behavior is a Biblically sanctioned method for distinguishing a false prophet. Moral character, doctrinal correctness, and (at least in the OT) validity of prediction seem to me to be the Biblical methods. These guys have real problems on those scores, I agree.
But, now that you mention it, I do think you may be proposing a false dichotomy, depending on exactly what you mean. I think they might hear from God at some times and from demons or the self at other times. Personally, I’m not into separating the wheat from the chaff–or, perhaps more accurately, the poison from the drinking water–so I pay them and their alleged prophecies little attention. And, in that operational sense I’d agree they’re false prophets. But, that doesn’t imply in my mind that everything they say is false or that they never hear from God. A mixture of sources seems to me far more risky and scary than a single, patently demonic source.
Is that a bit clearer? Thanks for bearing with me.
June 19, 2008 at 7:23 pm
I recently re-read portions of Bill Jackson’s book The Quest for the Radical Middle: A History of the Vineyard, for purposes unrelated to this blog entry. Nevertheless, while doing so, I could not help but notice some relevant claims, which I now relate. One reason I find these claims relevant is that Mike Bickle wrote an approving opinion that appears on the back cover of the book. The opinion states: “Bill Jackson’s thorough and accuratehistory of the Vineyard combines scholarly research with a kindness that will promote healing in relationships. It will serve the larger body of Christ as we see how God intervened with grace to anoint weak people as vessels of His kingdom” [emphasis added].
p. 216, “The first shot in the prophetic wars was fired on January 21, 1990. In his Sunday morning message entitled, ‘Do We Keep on Smiling and Say Nothing?’ an influential Charismatic pastor named Ernie Gruen accused Kansas City Fellowship of a while series of abuses with the prophetic ministry. There were three or four meetings in the late ’80s where Gruen confronted KCF with the goal of correction. The issue had appeared settled when Gruen wrote them in 1989 saying the ‘differences between us were resolved.’ The next exchange between them, however, came through the sermon tape that was sent around the world as a warning against false prophecy (especially by Bob Jones) and a new ‘Charismatic heresy.’ He believed Satan had deceived Mike and that the prophets were prophesying by a ‘familiar spirit.’”
p. 218, “On June 28th [1990] . . . Gruen agreed to stop his attacks on MVF [Metro Vineyard Fellowship, formerly Kansas City Fellowhips] and Paul Cain.”
p. 218, “Gruen wrote on July 1 that he realized that he had been wrong about Paul Cain and exonerated him from all wrongdoing. He released the whole controversy into Wimber’s hands feeling that he had done what his conscience had dictated. He said it was not his responsibility to provide either correction or approval.”
p. 218f., “Wimber [found] the MVF guilty of a number of errors and released a statement of those errors, which were also published in the fall 1990 issue of Equipping the Saints. Some of these included: A lack of accountability for prophecy; Allowing prophetic men to teach who were not gifted to do so; The attempt by some prophetic men to establish doctrine on the basis of prophecy; Dogmatic assertions in the delivery of prophetic words; Using jargon from groups that the Vineyard was trying to distance itself from; Manifesting an attitude of superiority through the information gained in prophecy.”
p. 219, “It should be noted that James A. Beverly would later point out that his research indicated that Wimber’s article was really the work of Jack Deere who was openly sympathetic to Bickle. A source close to Wimber also reported to me [Bill Jackson] that Wimber later came to believe that the facts in the case had been somewhat biased toward KCF [Kansas City Fellowship] and, while never acknowledging it publicly, privately apologized to Gruen for being careless and unbalanced.”
p. 219, “In obedience to 1 Timothy 5:20 where Paul counsels Timothy to publicly rebuke an elder who sins, Wimber disciplined Bickle before 7,000 people at MVF’s annual conference in June of 1991. Bickle responded with deep humility and brokenness.”
June 23, 2008 at 3:31 am
Sorry I haven’t checked this page in a long time, but I’m glad I did to scope out the info that you found (Chairos).
At first glance it is relevant to the issue, so what I feel I am left with is that Gruen (now) fervently said he didn’t take back anything from the report, but now claims of a historian say otherwise, but there isn’t any documentation from the book (I don’t have the book, but as far as what you posted, thats all I can assess) so I’m left with the story we’ve had for a while. Source A says source B did something that source B says he never did. So at the end of the day, without documented proof of source B doing what source B said he didn’t do, I must rely on source B for source B’s actions.
Does that make sense?
June 24, 2008 at 2:28 am
Devin, it’s all in how you look at the data, I think. Although Jackson’s account contradicts Gruen’s on a few fine points, I think that the two accounts are much more consistent than inconsistent. According to Jackson, Gruen withdrew charges related to Cain. But, Gruen held fast to the bulk of the charges. Isn’t that essentially what Gruen has claimed?
IMO, the combined accounts of Jackson and Gruen–coming as they do from opposite sends of the controversy–make it just about certain that there were serious, real, ongoing problems at KCF, just as Gruen claimed. It’s those who cite IHOP as saying the charges were groundless and therefore withdrawn that have trouble with Jackson’s version of events, I think. Mike Bickle’s testimony on the back cover pretty well puts the nail in the coffin of that whole line of argumentation, doesn’t it?
June 24, 2008 at 2:32 am
P.S. Jackson is writing as a historian, it is true. But, I’d say he’s clearly identified with the Vineyard and Wimber. So, I wouldn’t push the idea that he’s all that objective. For that matter, I’m unsure he has training as a historian. Actually, it’s specifically his association with the Vineyard that makes the cited portions of his account credible, IMO. He is a more or less a primary source.
June 24, 2008 at 2:40 am
yeah, makes sense, i have appreciated how you can break things down, eventho i haven’t been on here and talked with you very much, but i have read lots of things you’ve written and been appreciative
June 24, 2008 at 3:00 am
See, Chairios, you are indeed appreciated here, even if we don’t always personally see eye to eye on everything. I enjoy too interacting with your posts here. I appreciate your courtesy.
So please don’t be a stranger. We all need positive point/counterpoint input to keep us on our toes.
June 24, 2008 at 8:01 am
Thanks, y’all.
Blessings,
June 25, 2008 at 11:19 pm
Hi, I’m the one who transcribed the Ernie Gruen document for the Internet and placed it on my website. I did so as an overall examination of the KCP, Toronto et al. I am a bible-believing evangelical Christian, as you’ll probably see from the rest of my site. However that site is now only running as an archive as I am no longer active in ministry. If you have any questions I’d be glad to answer them.
Tricia
June 25, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Not speaking for the moderators but what a great thing to see you have read this site and welcome indeed. I have read much of your site and thank you for your hard work in this area.
God Bless
June 25, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Tricia,
Hello – I am glad to be able to directly thank you for your site. Thank You!
The archived site has been so very helpful to me.
I found myself wondering what would your views and insights be of the ‘current players’ as they play their game in the fringes of Christianity.
But that is a large question.
I look forward to reading your comments. I also may just come up with a reasonable question!
Kena
June 25, 2008 at 11:51 pm
Great site, Tricia.
I visit it often and enjoy it for its completeness.
June 28, 2008 at 10:26 pm
I’ve just read through all the comments on your interview with Ernie post, and I didn’t want to read through all the comments on this article too. As a result, I might have missed someone already answering my question, but has anyone proven the validity of Ernie Gruen’s grandson’s website?
I pointed out the apparent contradictions in http://apollos.wordpress.com/2008/02/02/ernie-gruen/ and asked about them, but I was just told to shut up. If the interview is true, then I’d be alarmed about IHOP, but I’m rather skeptical of the both of them after those interactions.
June 29, 2008 at 5:46 am
Yes it was validated, and I myself communicated with him and recommended that he speak to this issue. He did so in favor of his grandfather.
He posted both at his site and this one….
The more that we have communicated with others, especially those who were close to John Wimber the more that Ernie Gruen has been validated. It’s true my friend and you should be concerned that someone told you to keep your mouth shut…. censorship at it’s best.
June 29, 2008 at 8:01 pm
No, I’m saying I was told by “Apollos” to shut up after I asked about inconsistencies in his comments. That’s why I’m disinclined to believe him (them.)
June 29, 2008 at 8:21 pm
Would you be willing to share that conversation with us?
Was it in e-mail form or on a blog where we can see the comments?
June 29, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Matthew,
I went back and read the Apollos site and see what you are talking about.
I can’t answer that “issue” (name mis-spelling) for you or the other person that brought out the same question, nor the reason that he asked you not to post.
I do know that I communicated with “Apollos” on private e-mail and I have no reason to dis-believe I wasn’t speaking to Ernie Gruens grandson or that the post wasn’t genuine and just an honest mistake.
Obviously, you do question it based on a mis-spelling of a name when in the original article it was spelled correctly. Butthen it may be that Mr. Gruen doesn’t know how to spell it but the person (Tricia) who transcribed the information for the web did spell it correctly. Tricia posted a comment above and stated that she transcribed it for the web for her site.
June 29, 2008 at 9:19 pm
ok matthew
I know for a fact that we spoke to the real ernie gruen. how do i know? because the real ernie gruen confronted the real mike bickle in front of a bunch of real pastors in the Midwest concerning the real rumors that were being spread. as you can see i have probably misspelled bickels name and i write about ihop. more than not being me it is likely that i am a bad speller. and trust me ernie is not one i would invite to a spelling bee. Apollos is realy Gruens real grandson as well. now if you still dont believe me what can i tell you. Mike Bickel knows we talked to the real Gruen. Go ask him.
June 30, 2008 at 2:49 am
Layla,
Yes, the conversation is in actual comments on his blog.
Tim,
Your transcription answer is a plausible scenario. However, there are just too many contradictions for me to swallow this. Take, for example, the fact that in his first post he said, “My grandfather said that he and Mike Bickle are now on good terms and he actually supports Mike’s ministry.” However, he then denied that in the comments. His grandfather didn’t exactly give me the impression that they were best buds either. One prime example in the e-mail exchange was, “Though Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs unethically look for any reason to slander me.”
Greycoat,
What can I say? I just can’t buy the inconsistencies in their testimonies. I’m a skeptical guy, and, looking at your site, I don’t see how you can begrudge me that.
June 30, 2008 at 3:16 am
Matthew,
Ok bro… you search out the truth then as you need it. In the discussions we had with Ernie Gruen he mostly said he had a problem with Bob Jones and really didn’t put down Mike Bickle so much.
And his grandson was questioned, if I remember right, the point about grandpa supporting Mike Bickle. His answer to the post masses was that his grandfather was trying to support him (Apollos) while he was at IHOP. Sooooo…… be skeptical I guess and keep researching. The moderators of this post have always said that if they were proven wrong about this that they would retrack what was posted. But I’ve got to tell you I have heard recent interviews with other people from radio programs and so far they are corroberating what we have been told about this incident and so far so good.
Blessing
June 30, 2008 at 4:03 am
Tim, could ya kick me some links to the radio shows?
June 30, 2008 at 5:57 am
Devin: “Tim, could ya kick me some links to the radio shows?”
Now I know where Todd Bentley got his moves. . . .
June 30, 2008 at 6:18 am
devinasheville
June 30, 2008 at
I linked one under the ask away xp which has a small bit from a man that was involved in Vineyard and shares some things about Wimber and the KC/Toronto stuff. Doesn’t come right out and say anything about Gruen but from what it eludes to it falls in line with what Gruen siad and what CS has shared with us. This one was from Andrew Strom site, right hand side of home page.
I’ll have to find the others. Usually I save them and put them on CD to listen in the car. I’ll link what I can find later,
June 30, 2008 at 6:19 am
Speaking of kicking…watch this
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=951
June 30, 2008 at 7:01 am
TimH, yeah, saw that one live. TB is lucky the guy’s gut didn’t burst, which could have led to a reckless endangerment or involuntary manslaughter charge. I suppose it’s merely a question of time. . . .
Wait a sec–I just remembered that the dear Rev. Todd Bentley’s voice can raise the dead, as one (alleged) resurrectee claimed. I guess TB need have no fear. . . .
June 30, 2008 at 2:41 pm
matt
can i call you matt? i dont be grudge you a thing. but i am telling you we have the real goods. and appolos is gruens real grandson. take it or leave it . truth is truth. and what what.
July 5, 2008 at 5:33 am
So I was feeling investigative the other day.
I sent this to IHOP’s general information email address.
“Hello,
I have several friends that are a part of my church that have done internships at IHOP. I had heard about it before and had researched it somewhat. I have now done more research. I have a question about the Ernie Gruen Report that was done in 1990’s about Mike Bickle and his church. It has to do with this blog article that contains a recent interview with Ernie Gruen.
http://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/the-vindication-of-ernie-gruen/
My question is this, do you know where story came from that Ernie Gruen recanted his criticisms?”
They replied with this…
“Mike Bickle and Ernie Gruen had a reconciliation meeting in May 1993 asking one another for forgiveness during which time an open letter was written to express this. In June 1995 the leadership of the two churches involved in the controversy wrote another open letter affirming the reconciliation.”
Thoughts?
July 5, 2008 at 6:08 am
Matthew and Namaste950,
Someone’s telling porky pies.
I can understand your questions Matthew, I saw your inquiries were shrugged off a while ago by Apollos and thought that was questionable.
That being said, this whole thing doesn’t depend on the integrity of Apollos or even Ernie himself who apparently fell out of favour a few years after he completed this report, because of some personal decisions. It depends on the cold hard facts contained within that report, given by eye-witnesses and words straight from the horse’s mouth [unedited tapes of KCP preachers].
Even if Ernie and Apollos rescinded, and they did make up in 1993, the fact would remain that Bickle, Cain, Jones and the whole circus brazenly abused the flock, and they obviously haven’t come to terms with that, judging by Namaste950’s response from IHOP above.
So who’s telling the lies? I reckon you could safely say that the IHOP crew are, and there’s no sign of that stopping, until someone high up the food chain nails ‘em. I can’t wait for the day.
July 5, 2008 at 6:40 am
Namaste950, I suggest that you follow up by asking for copies of the open letters published in 1993 and 1995. If they’re truly “open,” they ought to be available upon request.
But, let’s be clear that the (alleged) forgiveness and reconciliation don’t necessarily have a bearing on the accuracy of Gruen’s charges. The parties to the dispute could have forgiven one another for any of a variety of offenses. Reconciliation does not imply rescission.
August 7, 2008 at 3:09 am
[...] Our good friend, and your fellow reader Namaste950 (sorry I don’t know your real name) sent an e-mail to IHOP, this was posted as a comment on our post HERE [...]
August 7, 2008 at 2:14 pm
Ha, Ha, a Pingback from the new Greycoats blog.
I guess 8-8-08 is coming quick. Everybody report to Stonehenge for the ceremony.
August 7, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Bill
did you get the cyber goat to sacrifice?
August 7, 2008 at 3:16 pm
I am with CS. we know they made nice when wimber took the wheel, but we now know gruen never recanted what was in the report. that was what was in question.
September 20, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Regarding:
http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000035952
I would have two questions:
1. Is that really the signature of the “correct” Ernie Gruen?
2. If it is, what exactly does the same Ernie Gruen claim that it meant then and does he still think the same?
I read statements of beliefs at IHOP.org, and while I don’t comment on their eschatology, I can’t find any fault in their “Core Beliefs” nor in their “Affirmations and Denials.” But there’s still the question of whether practice lines up with policy.
In 1973 or 1974, I was a bit disturbed at the theatricality of Kathryn Kuhlman. Then I heard her speak to a group of Christians (unconnected with any of her “public” meetings) and got a completely different view. Her message was all about dying to self, submitting to Christ, and so on. Good stuff and right on! (Plus, her voice and mannerisms were still very theatrical. Apparently, that’s merely her personality.
There have been other occasions where I privately agreed with the criticisms of various semi-famous ministries, and yet when I heard them in person, what they had to say was right on and unconnected with what they were attacked for.
December 23, 2008 at 4:51 pm
I don’t think it’s wise to try to get involved or expose something you know nothing about. You do not know these people. You weren’t there when this happen. How fair would it be if someone walked around with a tape recorder and microscope and examined everything you did and said? Then how fair would it be if someone picked you apart piece by piece showing you every moment where you messed up and every place where you were inconsistent? It wouldn’t be nice now would it? I don’t think this situation is truly for anyone that wasn’t directly involved to give an opinion on.
Both parties claim to know Jesus. Take them at their words and treat them like brothers in the faith. Why perpetuate fear and anxiety in people? What church teaches perfect doctrine and theology? I doubt your church does, but i’m sure your pastor and it’s leaders try their best. All these guys in Kansas City are trying their best. God is so much greater than our different doctrinal persuassions, and he may call people to go to IHOP to receive. He fully knows IHOP’s strength’s and weaknesses. He is a good shepherd and leader.
It’s just funny to me. I know countless people who have only fallen more in love with Jesus because of Mike Bickle. I know people who are saved and walk in holiness and righteousness because of the fruit of his ministry. I would hate for you to be tearing down something that God has anointed. Even when Saul was in disobedience and out to kill David. David didn’t touch or harm him because he was God’s anointed.
again, you may not agree. that’s fine. But it’s not wisdom and you don’t have authority to tear down something you didn’t help build. you seem to be hurt over these people leaving your church. I would give that to Him and not wear your woundedness on your sleave. i’ve done that before, and all it does is make you appear immature and prideful.
-a concerned christian
December 23, 2008 at 5:09 pm
so i looked at your sites and i noticed you seem to have a lot of other thoughts on other ministries as well.
normally i don’t comment on blogs like these and ignore them when i stumble across them.
but i think you guys are authentic. so i’m going to tell you this.
the way you recognize the false is to know the true so well. People that try to discern money fraud do so by not studying what counterfeit money looks like, but by studying the true. They look at real dollar bills all the time.
I think the Beauty of Jesus is like that. Just look at Him. Point others to look at Him. All the stuff that’s not of him will just fall away eventually in light of eternity.
i know the charismatic movement has a bad rep with conservative or reformed circles because of weirdness and flakiness. But as hard as many rationalize cessationism you cannot deny the authentic God demonstrating raw power of finite creatures. You can’t tell someone who was healed of cancer that it was false and God doesn’t do that.
Even more, you can’t tell me that my friend who was on her death bed was healed of hepatitis C, auto amune disease, etc in Lakeland Florida during Todd Bentley’s meetings. My 16 year old friend has written documentation from the bloodwork done probing her healing.
now some of you may or may not believe in “healing” but you can’t tell a healthy 16 year old girl who was on the verge of death that God doesn’t do that. Or even that Lakeland was a false revival. My friend is one of 3 people that i personally know who were healed of during Todd Bentley meetings.
so my unsolicited advice for all the greycoats is this.
Keep loving Jesus.
But also love His Bride.
And loving His bride does not look like being critical of other movements and denominations.
You can’t tear down something you didn’t help build.
-an even more concerned believer.
February 6, 2009 at 2:33 am
Good reporting Grey coats. Thank you for the time and effort that you spent on this. God Bless
February 6, 2009 at 2:44 am
P.S. I see that Wiki has changed what they say about Mr. Ernie Gruen.
@ Bill “the way you recognize the false is to know the true so well. People that try to discern money fraud do so by not studying what counterfeit money looks like, but by studying the true. They look at real dollar bills all the time.”
That does not even make sense dude. They study both the false and the true.
“But it’s not wisdom and you don’t have authority to tear down something you didn’t help build.”
This is also a nonsense statement. It goes against everything Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5. The Grey coats have wisely alerted the brethren to fallacy. I say good job Grey Coats.
February 7, 2009 at 11:09 pm
Thanks Steve.
@Bill. I dont discount folks getting healed, but I do try to differentiate between spiritual power and Divine power. God heals people I believe that,but there aint no rule book that says the devil cant as well. My judgement on Bentlies ministry was based on his teaching and practice. you judge wrongly if you think any of us are afraid of the supernatural moving of God. We simply expect it to point to the true revelation of God, The full revelation of God, The Lord Jesus Himself. now all that aside I cant tear down what i didn’t build is rubbish. I am glad to not have built that structure. If we are talking about men building things fine i wont wreck your play house. Yet God can use who ever and whatever He wants to tear an idol down. if He uses us so be it. To tell me Keep loving Jesus.
But also love His Bride.
And loving His bride does not look like being critical of other movements and denominations.
You can’t tear down something you didn’t help build. is quite spiritual but misses the point of our sight. We do love His Bride. Sadly that does mean being critical of other movements and denominations if they are straying or propagating false doctrine. just cause you say Jesus dont mean you are on the level. Christ calls us to use discernment so do the apostles Its the false prophets who tell you that using discernment is sin. I wonder why that is?? Sadly and i mean this in all due respect perhaps you need to reevaluate what love looks like. Not warning and correcting our brethren when they are heading towards destruction is pretty unloving indeed.
February 10, 2009 at 12:48 am
sometimes love have to be firm/tough. Just like the disciplines of Abba/Father. Not pleasant but its love in action!
February 11, 2009 at 4:02 pm
Betty,
Well said. Verb/noun aspects of love must be attended to.
February 19, 2009 at 1:18 pm
[...] most helpful when dealing with what is collectively called the ‘Kansas City Prophet.’ The author, from that I gather, recently saw his own congregation split, with half going to IHOP (International House of Prayer) under the leadership of Mike Bickle. I [...]
February 25, 2009 at 4:25 am
Christian Kabbalah
You guys really need to come to grips with the core historical theology behind false prophets Paul Cain and Bob Jones and the rest of the New Order of the Latter Rain. Sure, Ernie is now fully vindicated, but wouldn’t it really be great if the 256-page report that Ernie worked so hard on would open the door to people understanding that Bickle and Co. are embracing the Christian Kabbalah doctrines of 17th century occultist Jane Leade and the Philadelphian Society.
I met Ernie in 1982 at his Shawnee Mission Kansas church. He’s a great guy and never deserved the spiritual backlash from Bickle and subsequently John Wimber (Vineyard Fellowship) where Jack Deere led the entire Vineyard congregation to curse Ernie because of his honest and forthright report. Jack Deer is headed for hell just like his son and the rest of these Latter Rain occultists.
Where are the real theologians who are willing to spend the time and get to the history behind the heretical ideas that Mike Bickle, John Wimber, Rick Joyner, Bill Hamon, Bob Weiner, Cindy Jacobs, Dutch Sheets, C. Peter Wagner, Lee Grady, Steven Strang, etc. are really into?
The historical investigation has already been completed. All that’s left is the dissemination of the history to those who really give a damn as opposed to those who are an inch thick and a mile wide in their theology.
Wake up!!
Time is short and America is at stake because of the wrath, indignation and fury of God upon America for Christians embracing the following 4(four) heretical movements:
1) Word-of-Faith (restoration of the “Language of Adam”)
2) New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) and re-packaged as the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) led by the International Coalition of [false] Apostles (ICA)
3) Emergent Church (did God really say?)
4) Purpose-Driven cult — Rick Warren’s mentor/professor that signed off on his Fuller Theological doctoral dissertation was “Super Apostle” C. Peter Wagner. Warren is also a member of CFR. What’s wrong with that picture?
Wake up? You have got a whole lot of time to jack around with Ernie’s report. Get to the core theology of Christian Kabbalah and do it now!
February 25, 2009 at 5:01 am
What a great advertisement. thanx for that. I mean I’m sold I think I’ll run right out and try to find a 17th century Christian kaballah. whew thanx for pointing that out I thought we had done a pretty decent thing with this report ya know validating its authenticity and clearing up some gross misunderstanding caused by lies about ol Gruen. turn out we didn’t do enough. Go figure. Well thats what we get for playin fast and loose with this stuff. Oy Vey 17th century Kaballah? Really?? thats as far back as you can go and your upset? what about 2cnd century and 3rd century what about valentinian gnosticism and montanism? are those just too antiquated? Thanx for the wake up call I have never been berated by someone for not knowing some random peice of history which is obviously common knowledge that we just choose to ignore.
Grow up.
February 25, 2009 at 6:21 am
NOLR History,
Are you serious? While we do sometimes deal with questionable and heretical concepts/movements/leaders on this blog we are not a ‘heresy hunting’ blog. You seem to have a particular historical sense that I am not aware of. Personally, I believe that a mixture of Roman Catholic mystical tradition, semi-Pelagianism, dispensationalist, and neo-Montanist concepts have more to do with our NAR friends than Kaballah, but I have been wrong before. Finally, if you are so concerned, WordPress adds who-knows-how-many new blogs a day. Start one.
March 10, 2009 at 8:01 am
Hey Guys,
Just wanted to thank you for taking down my capitalized prophecy about the future events that are coming upon America and the church and the leaders of this nation. I see that you have no wisdom, for if you did you would allow others to judge such things but because your “The Grey Coats” you continue to do the same things “The Grey Coats” did in Mike Bickles movement who had me arrested. Trying to control the prophetic by removing prophecies and editing tapes. That’s okay though because everything hidden will be brought to the light. So now I speak to you the overseers of this domain. You might not have heard yet but up here in the city close to me a Grey Coat was shot and killed in the pulpit and some members we’re also stabbed at the Maryville Babtist Church, and now that same Spirit better known as The Destroyer is headed your way. I leave you with the word of the Lord. Repent and quit fighting with Davids Order and get out of Sauls camp before you are over taken by the destroyer! Your only hope is to preach the Cross of Christ and The Blood. Repent
March 12, 2009 at 3:20 am
Yeah Thanx for that. I don’t even know what your talking about? I saw no Capitalizied prophecy. but umm OK . oh and thanx for assuming you know what we preach on the home front as well. I love it when folks assume things… We all know what assuming does don’t we. Oh and thanx for the threat err I mean warning that was interesting. Jesus died for me. What is it to me if I die in His name but honor I don’t deserve. God give me the grace to stand firm if I do get shot while I preach the gospel.
Thanx again wonderful chatting with you.
March 12, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Hidden Prophet,
I’ve taken your threat seriously and notified the authorities of its content. Furthermore, I do own several guns and while I don’t make a practice of preaching armed I have no problem defending my family.
March 12, 2009 at 7:03 pm
“…I see that you have no wisdom, for if you did you would allow others to judge such things but because your “The Grey Coats” you continue to do the same things “The Grey Coats” did in Mike Bickles movement who had me arrested.
Hey, I read a while back on another site and I thought maybe on this site before you went .com a posty by a person who admitted that they had been at IHOP one night and he tried to get more involved in the prayer time, prophecying and he also wore some questionable clothing. He admitted in his post that the ushers went to him and asked him to stop and they had to have him removed. I don’t know if you ever saw that one or remember that post, but I sure wonder if tis is teh same person…. I bet IHOP has not had many people arrested. I bet they may know who this person is….
March 13, 2009 at 1:20 am
IWTT,
Thanks for the lead. I’m checking it out.
May 29, 2009 at 4:04 pm
scott February 26, 2008 at 9:15 am: It also might be a good idea to add the fact that Ernie Gruen ran off with the secretary of his former church.
thegreycoats February 26, 2008 at 4:03 pm: Scott if you look at the bottom of the gruen interview he mentions h[i]s immorality and says [i]t took place years after the report.
A quote from Bill Jackson’s book cited above states:
p. 216, “The first shot in the prophetic wars was fired on January 21, 1990. In his Sunday morning message entitled, ‘Do We Keep on Smiling and Say Nothing?’ an influential Charismatic pastor named Ernie Gruen accused Kansas City Fellowship of a while series of abuses with the prophetic ministry.
Ernie Gruen states in his interview with you:
10. Why did you stop circulating the report? See answer in question #6.
Though Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs unethically look for any reason to slander me, the personal situation involving me occurred several years after the “Aberrant Document” was released. It had and has no relationship to the contents of the document or its release whatsoever.
I think there’s a chronological problem here. We lived in Kansas City at the time of the controversy and had attended both churches (i.e., Gruen’s and Bickle’s; in fact, we’d off-and-on attended Bickle’s church since the time he came to town in 1983, as well as Gruen’s church from even before that time). I still have a copy of the “Do we keep on smiling and say nothing?” sermon tape, given to me by a coworker who attended Full Faith Church of Love, who also gave me a copy of the 233-page report (which I no longer have; or perhaps he gave me a copy of an abridged version). We were in a Vineyard Church at the time of the Gruen-Bickle conflict, and when Bickle’s church joined Vineyard (under Wimber’s “restoration”/discipline effort), our pastor, who sympathized with Gruen’s concerns, pulled his/our church out of the Vineyard.
We left Kansas City in the summer of 1990. I would guess it was less than a year later – maybe even as early as 6 months or less later – that I heard about Ernie Gruen running away with his secretary. (And also heard that his son(s) brought him back home after that marriage fell apart, and he repented and remarried his first wife.)
Thus, it was not “years after the report” (Bill Jackson’s book) or “several years after the ‘Aberrant Document’ was released” (Ernie Gruen’s statement) that Ernie left his wife for his secretary. Rather, it was perhaps a year or so, more or less.
Unless my memory is very faulty, I don’t know why Gruen seems to be misstating the truth about how soon after the Full Faith-Kansas City Fellowship controversy he married and ran off with his secretary.
June 2, 2009 at 4:19 pm
E,
Is the 233 page document true in it’s content about the Kansas City Prophets?
Is the tape true in it’s content about the Kansas City Prophets?
Was there and is there abherent practices at that time that are carrying over to present day?
June 2, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Re: my last post.
I’ve tried to find on the Internet dates for Ernie Gruen’s marrying his secretary, but have been unable to do so.
I said my memory could be faulty, and though I couldn’t find a date for Ernie’s marriage to his secretary, I remembered that Nick Jordan had taken over as pastor when Ernie left. So I Googled for Nick Jordan and Full Faith Church of Love and found this:
“In 1993, Jordan became the lay minister of the Full Faith Church of Love in Shawnee after its founding pastor left suddenly. He held that position for 18 months. The church has since been renamed the Cross Points Church.”
It looks like my memory is indeed faulty (a lot happened to us and our family during the 1990s), and that Ernie’s marriage to his secretary did happen “years after” the January 1990 paper.
Please consider this a retraction or correction of my previous post. Thanks!
June 2, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Tim H asked:
Is the 233 page document true in it’s content about the Kansas City Prophets?
Is the tape true in it’s content about the Kansas City Prophets?
Was there and is there abherent practices at that time that are carrying over to present day?
I’d have to reread the report to know if its content is true, and I’d be going by what they say, as I have no personal experience of these things. We knew/saw/heard Bickle, Jones, Paul Cain, etc., but were never personally directly impacted or affected by their ministries or prophecies. The contents of the “Aberrant” report came from transcribed tapes of sermons or messages from Mike Bickle and Bob Jones, and I think there are lengthy excerpts in the report. Ernie described some of the incidents in his taped message, “Do we keep on smiling and say nothing?”
I have no idea or knowledge of current practices. We haven’t been involved with Bickle’s church or that movement since we left Kansas City in 1990. We’ve come in contact with people who are involved with IHOP (Bickle’s prayer ministry/organization), but we ourselves are not involved with it or with them.
June 2, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Thank you for your response and especially for your honesty and retraction of the info you posted. I appreciate it when one is willing to step back and correct error, shows integrity.
By the way, you do not need to go through all of that material for the benefit of my questions. It is so long ago anymore and there has been much more that has come out of that time period. It is good just to know that the truth is being brought out and that any lies and deception is being uncovered.
Where are you now? East coast, west coast, Pacific Northwest, or somewhere in the middle? Are you a pastor or lay person?
June 2, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Just a lay guy in the vicinity of Dallas, TX.
June 2, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Excellent… Well good communicating with you.
June 2, 2009 at 11:32 pm
I am a former associate of Ernie’s. Last evening June 1, 2009 Ernie went home to be with the Lord. I thought you might like to know.
June 4, 2009 at 6:34 pm
Thank you Mr. Walker. My condolences to the family.
July 7, 2009 at 6:29 am
Hey Grey Coats,
Jarrod seems to think I’m threatening him but he’s wrong I am prophecying to him and to all you other Grey coats. We have now seen Ernie Gruen pass who I have had the opportunity to speak with, and also Micheal Jackson. Just a couple of figures in leadership positions that I spoke of on your web page that has now been removed. I will repeat myself one last time before God begins to deal with you. Repent and quit fighting and slandering and mocking others with your words that are being spoken, this is Sauls order who throw spears and that’s what the Grey Coats represent. Repent and turn away from these type of acts and pray for your enemies and learn the word of God. From this day forward if any of you pass from this life into eternity I personally will be coming to Kansas City to meet this group face to face and end this mockery and battle between the Blue Coats known as the North and the Grey Coats known as the South and we know who won the Civil War and what it represents in the spirit. Repent and turn away, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED.HIDDEN PROPHET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok so I was a little harsh there. My bad. But seriously you greycoats are wonderful people and I love you. oh and please disregard what i just wrote I am having problems at home and if you cannot already tell am quite unstable. See I still live with my mom and spend most of my days wearing my pajamas. It’s so sad. Here I am 40 years old with home of my own and all I have to cling to is my misguided albeit quirky belief that I am a prophet. Sadly I am no such thing. I think I just need a hobby or a girlfriend or maybe I need to really meet Jesus for the first time. I don’t know.
July 7, 2009 at 9:02 am
WOW! ummmm yeah, uhhhhh thanx for that hidden guy. that was ummm really something. maybe you should consider a career in crazy or not from God. Just sayin.
July 7, 2009 at 6:53 pm
Hidden Prophet,
Just because you wear the stretchy pants and drink Big Gulp Mountain Dew while trolling through various blogs doesn’t mean your not good enough, smart enough, and likeable enough to realize your dreams. Enough with the talk. Put down the Mars bar and pick up the remote…now watch the Jackson funeral, but pay special attention to the subversive codewords hidden in Lionel Ritchie’s eulogy. Once you understand the spiritual meaning behind Jermaine’s facial tic you will have gleaned the true knowledge and key to everlasting prophetic power. It can be yours…don’t aim so low man…the annointing is within your grasp. After you’ve achieved this level of ascension please return and share…..with both armies man….indeed, such vital knowledge will surely end the strife between blue and grey. Onward hidden one, your destiny awaits!!
July 7, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Typing in caps = yelling. It may be difficult to remain hidden if you yell “HIDDEN PROPHET!!!!!!!!!!!” whenever you finish speaking. But I don’t know. Just the concept of a hidden prophet I find kinda silly. I mean, a name works. I actually get this feeling that if they had internet back in the days of Jonah, he probably would have logged on to Nineveh’s blog site with a pseudonym like “Hidden Prophet” and totally hooked them up from a safe distance! Do you have a twitter? It’d be pretty sweet if the greycoats could just subscribe to that, so that you can twitter “prophecies” of their destruction to them all day! Ya know, just keep them updated on all the latest things, like the word of God (which we know, is always changing!), the power the Spirit has given you (cause we all know, you control Him!), and the color of your sweatpants, all that good stuff!
September 5, 2009 at 9:46 am
Greycoates
I don’t know who you are but I am glad I found you. I accidently happened upon the cult stuff with IHOP and was shocked. I just got done reading the 132 page version of the Gruen Report and wondered what has happened in the 20 years since then. Personally, I see (from my distant vantage point) too many eye witness and personal testimony to think everything is ok there, but wanted to know if there was an ‘official’ word out there at all?
I was happy (sad) to find that Ernie held to his guns and I guess Bickle, Jones etc are still up to their game.
What really ticks me off is the Church is doing nothing (or knows nothing) (or CHOSES to know nothing) about this whole fiasco. What? Shame on us that we allow things like this to thrive for 30 years! I literally just found out about 3 weeks ago, meanwhile I’ve got Misty Edwards on my iPod and am signed up for onething Phoenix. !!! Eeep! I had no idea. I never thought to check my sources. I guess I learned that lesson.
Oh, to add insult to injury I found a Rick Joyner book on my bookshelf that has been there for the last 10 years. What was I thinking?
Thank God that He Himself leads us in discernment other wise (I’ve proven) that I’ll fall for anything.
May God bless us with wisdom and unity. And may He have mercy and save all of us in whatever place we find ourselves, I pray especially for those in IHOP. A friend of a friend just moved there and believes that God is calling people to move there…and wouldn’t you know that is the same thing I read on page 105 of the Gruen report dated 1990!
To Christ the Glory and Power forever
October 10, 2009 at 9:35 pm
I am the director of the Atlanta South Metro House of Prayer in Stockbridge Ga. We are a city-wide house of prayer, but we are not an IHOP nor or we associated with IHOP in any official capacity.
However, I did live in Kansas City for three months in 2002 and visited IHOP. I have several friends who are in leadership positions at IHOP. While I was out in KC, I was investigating the charges that have been occasionally raised against them.
When I asked about the charges I was shown a copy of the letter where Gruen recanted his charges and I also was shown the newspaper clipping where he published a city-wide apology to the church in Kansas City for the false statements and the division caused by his published allegations.
I do not have copies of either document, but I did personally hold and read both documents. I have read Gruen’s document and I have read the recanting of the same.
I am not defending or affirming any of Gruen’s charges. Bickle has publicly admitted to many of the charges and addressed the rest of them.
Gruen’s grandson was part of IHOP for a while (I undersatnd he isn’t any longer). But he published on his blog the truth of Gruen’s recantations as well as the existence of the documents supporting the same.
I cannot answer as to why Gruen now recants the recantation. Whether you are a supporter of IHOP or not is not the issue. Integrity is the issue. Setting up straw men and knocking them down proves nothing and accomplishes nothing.
It is what it is. Gruen made accusations, some appear to have had validity, some did not. He recanted and apologized publicly for the wrong and now for what ever the reason has changed his story.
But the facts and integrity demand that his current statements do not change the historical facts nor can they be used to solidify any attacks against Bickle or IHOP. Any issues, real or imagined will have to gain support from other sources.
Blessings,
Buddy
October 10, 2009 at 9:52 pm
As an addendum to my previous post – my wife was talking to me and I left out part of what I meant to include.
In the letter that I read Gruen admitted that he was involved in an immoral situation and was confronted by one of the prophets who said that God had told them about his situation and instructed them to tell Gruen to stop and to repent.
Gruen stated that he he composed the original document to expose Bickle and Metro was his persona attempt to discredit the prophets in order to protect himself. He apologized for doing so.
And one other fact. While in Kansas City I personally spoke with Bickle about the situation in a conversation I had with him in IHOP’s coffeeshop. He expressed remorse for the situation, thankfulness for what the original letter had brought forth – needed repentance from Metro’s leadership, and what appeared to be sincere affection for Gruen himself.
In fact, while looking around in IHOP’s bookstore I noticed that they were selling some of Gruen’s books. I mentioned to Mike how odd that seemed. He responded that he didn’t see it odd at all, after all even though Gruen had attacked Metro, and even though Gruen had fallen into sin, he had publicly repented of both of these and therefore there was no reason not to sell his materials.
And he added, “And after all, they are great books.” IHOP still sells the books to this day.
That impressed me then, and it impresses me now.
Blessings,
Buddy
October 11, 2009 at 2:04 am
Buddy
“I cannot answer as to why Gruen now recants the recantation. Whether you are a supporter of IHOP or not is not the issue. Integrity is the issue. Setting up straw men and knocking them down proves nothing and accomplishes nothing.”
We are aware of folks saying these documents exist. You are not the first person to say you have seen them. However one of the folks who said he had read the recantation later admitted to lying. You are also not the first to challenge the integrity of our interview. Yet It will stand until we see real proof that these documents exist. For the record we asked IHOP to produce these documents when we posted the interview. If Gruen lied we want to know. You said “It is what it is. Gruen made accusations, some appear to have had validity, some did not. He recanted and apologized publicly for the wrong and now for what ever the reason has changed his story.” Which one appeared to be valid? Gruen was open about his relationship with the other woman and was adamant that it took place years after the report was sent out. Ernie is dead and can’t speak for himself anymore. We have his final statements about the recantation he says he never recanted what was in the report. You said “Gruen’s grandson was part of IHOP for a while (I understand he isn’t any longer). But he published on his blog the truth of Gruen’s recantations as well as the existence of the documents supporting the same.” I have read Gruens grandsons blog and unless this has happened recently no such thing has been said about Ernie recanting. If I am not wrong I believe Devin actually communicated with his grandson about the issue. I don’t really need to have the report one way or another to postulate why I believe the prophetic to be a counterfeit revival. Nor do I need the report in order to say that many of it’s leaders are false teachers. I can do that on the doctrines and false prophecies alone. I will close with this… as I have said before to others If you will kindly produce the said documents in a verifiable way then I will take this post down and write a public recantation of my own. until then I will stand beside what the old man said himself and this post will remain .
Hows that for integrity ?
hope to talk to ya again.
October 11, 2009 at 2:14 am
Buddy
Here for the record is what Gruens grandson posted on his blog
rnie Gruen
I thought that you all might be interested in this e-mail i received from my grandfather…
It has been spread around Kansas City and on the Internet that I sent out a letter saying that I was deceived and that I had retracted the document “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Fellowship).
[Actually, they have been known by many names in the KC area, switching elders and church names on a regular basis. For a while they were known as Metro Vineyard. Interestingly, John Wimber told me that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickel, because he discovered that I was correct in the “Aberrant” document.]
I sent out no such letter; I issued no retraction; I did not issue an apology!
Statements asserting the above are total lies!
The “Aberrant” document was and is exactly the truth of what happened. It was accumulated from tapes purchased from Bickel’s own ministry. The report is genuine!
Who originated these new lies, I have no idea?
Who decided to spread these lies on the Internet and throughout KC, I do not know.
But it is Mike Bickel’s responsibility to see that these lies are repudiated by him and also publicly at I-Hop–since it purportedly is regularly stated to newcomers to I-Hop. Of course it is to Bickel’s advantage to keep THE LIE going to increase his numbers and growth of his ministry.
Be sure and read Footnote 2 entirely.
Pastor Ernie Gruen
erniegruen@yahoo.com
Footnote 1:
Why did Full Faith no longer send out the “Aberrant document”?
Originally when every thing came to ahead, there was a meeting with the elders of Full Faith with the elders of KC Fellowship. For the sake of unity in the Body of Christ and peace in the city, the elders of Full Faith Church of Love agreed to stop sending out the document. The elders were simply being magnanimous, nothing was retracted. A pastor’s wife, without our knowledge or consent, posted the current copy on the Internet.
Footnote 2:
Paul Cain and other prophets discredited by Mike Bickel and Others:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel19.html
Footnote 3:
The original “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship.
http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html
Ernie and Dee Gruen
Ernie and Dee Gruen
i read every post put on here. if you wanna talk gnoble@ku.edu
God Bless you all. Constantly question everything.
Grant Noble