IHOPU…who needs a degree anyway?

Allen Hood says that at IHOPU you can learn to prophecy thru a camera.  No, not to a camera.  But, thru one.  I’ll leave you to figure that one out.  Perhaps it is all part and parcel of an anti-intellectualism which is especially virulent in the radical Charismatic camp (Hood is the ONLY ONE in the ‘faculty’ who has earned an M.Div.).  He says, “Students don’t get a degree but do get a media anointing.”  A media anointing eh?  Sounds like IHOP’s ‘university’ has figured out how to advertise for free.

“A university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants degrees in a variety of subjects. A university provides both undergraduate and postgraduate education.” Now call me unspiritual…but apparently IHOP has faulted on the VERY FIRST definition of a university, which is ‘grants degrees’ (we won’t go into the necessity of postgraduate ed….just too easy).  Perhaps just as IHOP is tasked with changing the face of Christianity in one generation so they are also now charged with changing the VERY definition of higher education.

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190 Comments

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190 responses to “IHOPU…who needs a degree anyway?

  1. Bill Fawcett

    I wondered about the university thing. In virginia, you have to have approval by the state council of higher education (schev). Wonder what the law is in Mo.

    Guess they can all give each other honorary doctorates now.

  2. Diane S.

    Out of curiosity, I wonder what the tuition cost is to get this so-called “Media Anointing”? Of course, they are NOT an accredited institution. What job options does a graduate have, especially in today’s market?

  3. Bill,

    Bottomline, you’re not a university if you say you are…..doing stuff like that is why IHOP won’t ever be accredited. But then again….they’re above all that.

  4. Diane,

    I think they outline the tuition/fees in the ‘overview booklet’ at the link I provided. I couldn’t download it though because of some adobe problems I’m having.

  5. Diane S.

    Thanks, Nathaniel. So the charge is $100 per credit hour, beside the other student fees. Pretty expensive anointing…Especially for a diploma they can do nothing with once they leave IHOP.

  6. Awwww…c’mon Diane, why ever leave IHOP?

  7. Diane S.

    I guess no one would have to leave if they offer Public Assistance….

  8. Diane S.

    Okay, that’s probably too harsh…

    Someone from my former church went to IHOP for the “Prophetic” program. They ended coming back to their hometown without a ministry or job…Oh, and 5 kids….

  9. They must have been amazingly spiritual people.

  10. a.k.a. SP

    Well I have a family member… who has ‘graduated’ and has their own prophetic ministry now… so since this ‘family member’ won’t have anything to do with me, (because I only read my bible and go to church and am, therefore, only practicing ‘religiosity’) I can only hope and pray! that they’ll be communicating or rather, prophecying through the cameras so that I can see them from time to time.

    Or is that NOT how it’s supposed to be done….

  11. you guys have no idea what your talking about.

    Anti-intellectualism? really??… The university itself along with the courses offered logically contradicts your assertion. If any institution is teaching anything with room for reasoning and discussion (I can attest that this FIRST hand, can you?) they are obviously not anti-intellectual.

    “A university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants degrees in a variety of subjects. A university provides both undergraduate and postgraduate education.” Now call me unspiritual…but apparently IHOP has faulted on the VERY FIRST definition of a university, which is ‘grants degrees’ ”

    apparently ihop didn’t check wikipedia before they named the school… though ihop is not accredited by any agency (yet) ihop does grant certificates of completion which are recognized by many in the body of Christ.

    “(we won’t go into the necessity of postgraduate ed….just too easy).”
    That statement wreaks of elitism (never thought i’d charge you guys for this :). i bet you won’t make that statement to the majority of the body of Christ who can’t afford or lack the education to pursue postgrad. Count it a blessing to even be able to have an education. Don’t make that a standard when the bible doesn’t.

    “Perhaps just as IHOP is tasked with changing the face of Christianity in one generation so they are also now charged with changing the VERY definition of higher education.”

    again… wikipedia is your “very” definition? come on. an intellectual like you should be aware of the semantic range of “university” or “higher education.”

    Allen Hood is not the only one with a degree.

    Diane,
    Alot of seminarians that graduate from traditional institutions still run in the job security issues. It’s quite unfortunate but such are the times we live in. The person from your church is not alone.

  12. jarrod

    Wow! you sure told us. man what were we thinkin ? using wiki to get definitions. stupid us for not using our thinkin caps again. I didn’t realize you could just call any old bible study or prophetic instruction class or course a university. if thats the case then welcome to Thegreycoats U . you wont get a degree but you will get a certificate in the mail and maybe even a tee shirt or something. Now I know it’s easy to throw the word elitist around these days but really, we arent the ones who are going to “change the face of Christianity in one generation” we are not the super prophetic movement that is only right in there prophecies 60% or less of the time . We are the other guys. Oh by the by has IHOP really been called to change the face of Christianity in a generation? I mean its about time. the last 2 generations that were called to do it failed epically maybe you guys will get it right.

    hugs and kisses

  13. Charismaniac,

    Touched a nerve eh?

    Maybe Webster’s is good enough for you:

    “an institution of higher learning; specif : one made up of an undergraduate division which confers bachelor’s degrees and a graduate division which comprises a graduate school and professional schools…”

    Huh, go figure, I guessed Wikipedia carried more weight with the IHOP crowd anyway since me and friends of mine were publicly targeted on the entry for Mike Bickle with derogatory remarks. But I’ll play your game you rogue:)

    ‘You guys have no idea what your talking about’…a bit of hyperbole just to get the blood racin’, no?

    Words such as ‘logically contradicts’ and ‘obviously’ don’t counteract the fact that you’ve made up your own definition of university which is ‘an institution teaching anything with room for reasoning and discussion.’ Maybe you should attempt to edit the Wikipedia entry for ‘university’, hmmm?

    A certificate of completion huh? That’s fine, but isn’t that a piece of paper, “Our goal at the end of 4 years is not that our students will get a piece of paper with a stamp or a degree on it.”—Wes Hall, Provost and vice president of academic affairs at FSM

    This statement is reactionary, logically, and obviously geared to appease those who never had no use for no book larnin’ they just want to speak in the prophetic realm of flowin’ in the spirit. But its good to know that IHOP does secretly ape authentic universities by giving out marks of achievement.

    Um, the post-grad remark was aimed at IHOP’s failure to offer a post-graduate program (thereby negating the VERY definition of university—according to Wikipedia and Webster that is), not any one person’s failure to obtain a post-graduate degree. If we go by the Charismaniac definition of university then, yes, my local coffee shop would count…..and they do give pieces of paper out, for free mind you, from cube shaped dispensers on every table.

    Read my post again. If you do, you may find that my words obviously and logically contradict the setting of any sort of universal standard of schooling for the wider body of Christ (however I do think proper training in the use of the word ‘logically’ would be well served).

    What next? Semantic range….ah yes….hmmmm…….a university is, generally whatever? Yes, there are dog obedience schools also claiming the title of university out there…..I get the colloquial value of the term. But you know, calling a trashman a sanitary engineer won’t wipe the stink off his uniform. I’m not goin’ down the pomo epistemological rabbit hole, nope.

    Lastly, I am not against unaccredited Bible schools. That is hardly the point of my post. I do believe it is disingenuous for a seminary, Bible college, or school to claim the title of university…it is tacky, pretentious and simply laughable to any honest scholar.

    I did overlook that Gary London also received a Master’s degree in Theology from Christian Life School of Theology. Allen Hood earned a Master’s of Divinity from Asbury Seminary. Out of a leadership team of 8, two leaders have the minimal requirement needed to teach religious studies in a community college. Wait a minute though, CLST is unaccredited (you don’t even need a high school diploma to attend), so…..sorry Gary couldn’t be a “professor” at anywhere but IHOPU. But I grant to Charimaniac that two is better than one and apologize for my oversight.

  14. Just want to point out that the media school does offer hands-on experience with equipment, experience which is difficult to get elsewhere.

    In the media realm a degree is not nearly as respected has hours behind a camera.

  15. Thanks for that David. I’ll take your word for it.

  16. IHOP is actually about to launch a post grad program in conjunction with two rather reputable universities. (ones you would approve of)

    We are also months away from legitimate accreditation. The teachers and professors (NOW) admittedly not a few years ago- have degrees and post grad degrees. In other words formal education.

    It’s a growing process, I understand your well warranted skepticism now, but check back in a year or two I promise your skepticism will be curbed a bit. (while I’m sure still linger, if it didn’t I’d be dissappointed)

    And yes David is right- students in other media schools are leaving those schools to come here because they get instant live TV (on your favorite channel!) experience. Which very few schools produce- you usually have to get on a waiting list at a TV station for a year just to be an intern that gets the camera guy coffee to get any type of experience

    Love peace and hair grease- Z

  17. zack,

    There are post-grad degrees and then there are post-grad degrees. A Masters in “prophetic camera operation” (Those in the industry could call it the PCO) would surely be a niche market. But there ya go….God TV….man……….a lucrative market indeed.

  18. Tom Mills

    I really appreciate constructive criticism. There are too many folks who just walk blindly through life and never question anything they read. Thanks, greycoats, for keeping IHOPU in your sights and prayers. We need objective, well-informed opinions from people who know what they are talking about. You hold our feet to the fire and keep us striving for excellence. One small oversight that you may want to correct – at least 5 IHOPU faculty (in addition to Allen Hood) have masters degrees from Asbury Seminary – that doesn’t qualify them to teach at a university level – but it does speak to the issue of being anti-intellectual. One other faculty member has (in addition to the ATS degree) a DMin from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School (Affiliated with the Evangelical Free Church). And yet another who teaches in the music academy has her PhD. So, you may want to update your data base as you keep tabs on the growth and development of IHOPU. It is a work in progress and with your help, we will get better.

  19. Katee S

    I think IHOPU is one of the few colleges that have it right.
    It’s all heart knowledge, and in the end, God’s not going to ask if we had a bachelors, but rather how we lived our lives to glorify Him.

  20. Jeff

    They are accredited through ORU.

  21. jarrod

    Katee |What is the difference between head and heart knowledge ? I am stumped. Does one just feel heart knowledge ? I for one find that whats in my head tends to effect my heart , but who am I. For the record I went to an unaccredited Bible college. It was called an unaccredited Bible college. They weren’t calling it a university just a school. I have no degree in anything. While I would agree that Father will not be asking if we had a degree I find that comments like that prove what Nat’s hitting at more than refute it.

    Be blessed.

  22. sadparent

    Tom Mills, Katee, Jeff, Zack et al,

    While you guys are singing the praises of IHOP, Allen Hood and Mike Bickle, could you please explain to me why this ‘ministry’, why the “older and wiser” council at IHOP would counsel certain members to cut off all communication with non-IHOP supporting family members?

    And Jeff, ORU doesn’t list IHOP as being accredited. But if you can find documentation to back that up, let me know.

    I’m just amazed everyone at IHOP can do the fluffy talk and then look down their noses at anyone who isn’t (eh hem) growing in ‘the’ prophetic. Just a tad lacking in love guys.

    SP

  23. Tom,

    I was aware of some of the Master’s degrees. My information was gleaned from the faculty profiles on IHOPU’s webpage. Perhaps that has changed, been updated since my post, or there are unlisted faculty/staff.

    Asbury huh? Seems to be quite the IHOP connection there. Might have to dig a little deeper on that one….might be a good story lurking.

  24. Katee,

    If you will simply notice the tenor of my original post; and then attend to my reply to Charismaniac you will see that I steer wide of attaching any sort of salvific significance to higher education.

  25. sadparent

    I was reading Luke last night – someone help me with where this scripture’s located – and it noted where Jesus said ‘many will come to me in that day talking about casting out demons, doing miracles etc. and then he says,”depart from me, I never knew you”.

    That reminded me sooooo much of IHOP. A lot of big talk about growing in “the” prophetic (never have found that one in my Bible) and Joel’s Army (same thing – it’s not in there either) and the list goes on. But the ONE thing that I read that really, really struck me – pricked my heart you might say, is where Jesus says we must come as children. And where He says we MUST walk in love.

    I guess what has me totally stumped is how can the IHOP leadership convince someone that cutting off all ties (ALL ties) to their family is in God’s will? Like doesn’t that totally go against scripture?

    It just doesn’t line up with God’s word – and yet Mike Bickle and Allen Hood are viewed as “godlike” though you’d never get any of them (IHOPers) to admit it.

    OH SADPARENT! How can you say that? I had a long conversation, several actually, with a former IHOP leader who got booted because he dared to question Mike Bickle’s teachings out loud.

    SP

  26. Nicole

    I am going to be going to IHOPU in the Fall of 2010 to the music school and I’d love to chime in on this public blog 🙂
    I want to also say that I too appreciate constructive criticism, and love testing things against God’s word because it’s absolutely necessary in all things, so thanks for that.
    I have NEVER heard anyone say that believers need to cut off ties with any non-supporting family members. My family isn’t saved, and it’s not an easy thing to go through, but I’d never cut them off and never will. If they ask me to do that and it’s not biblical, then I would surely leave. I have never heard of anyone doing that, and I know quite a few people who go to this school, seeing as I went to the summer camp and many of the councilors were from IHOPU.
    I’m sorry you guys have issues with the name of the school, and that it’s such a big deal. I personally thought it was a little cheesy, but not enough to complain about.
    I’ve never heard anyone look down on someone that isn’t interested in the prophetic. Sorry if anyone has…
    I don’t know how some of you can say that IHOP is lacking in love when the whole point is about love and one of the biggest things Mike emphasizes in his preaching is the greatest commandment and the second that is like it, loving God and loving your neighbors from this overflow of the love of God..
    And Joel’s army is absolutely a biblical term. Maybe you should look in Joel.
    The difference between having head knowledge and heart knowledge is that with only head knowledge and having no real experience with connecting with the heart of God and His delight over us, having head knowledge alone doesn’t satisfy.
    That doesn’t mean you should only have times of worship where you listen to you heart alone, but IHOP promotes combining the Word and your heart experiences.. testing what your heart says and what you feel God is speaking in your life against the Word.. if that makes sense..
    I’m quite amazed at the accusations people are making. It doesn’t feel very much like it’s being done in love. I’m terribly sorry if any of you have had bad experiences with people from IHOP or IHOPU, but I think some people on here are making generalizations about students that go to that school and go to IHOP…
    I’d be interested in reading about criticism from someone who’s ACTUALLY been there. So if anyone like that is reading and wants to comment as well, I’d be delighted.

  27. Zack

    “We are also months away from legitimate accreditation.”

    I take this as meaning that the “university” is not legitimately accredited. Which means it is not eligible for exemption under Missouri 6 CSR 10.5.010 (3) (A) (4).

    And presumably, since it is calling itself a university but is not offering post-graduate degrees, it is not likely operating with a certificate of approval from the state. Or is it?

    If it is not, it it in violation of Missouri 6 CSR 10.5.010 (2) (C) which states

    “No proposed new school may operate
    without the issuance of a certificate of
    approval to operate.”

    and is therefore, under Missouri 6 CSR 10.5.010 (2) (D) (4), forbidden to commence “any instructional activity.”

    Wowsers, I sure hope you guys are “rendering unto Caesar.” You are not listed on the Missouri DHE website.

    http://highered.mo.gov/ProgramInventory/search.jsp

    Maybe you or Tom could shed some light on this.

    -Bill

  28. -more-

    There is a provision for a religious exemption

    Missouri 6 CSR 10.5.010 (3) (B) (3) (A).

    “A not-for-profit school owned, controlled, and operated by a bona fide religious or denominational organization that offers no programs or degrees and grants no degrees or certificates other than those specifically designated as religious degrees or programs shall be exempted upon satisfactory evidence of…”

    However, that exemption must be applied for.

    I’m sort of curious about this – has such an exemption been obtained?

    On the lighter side, can a not-for-profit school offer courses in prophecy? 🙂

    -Bill

  29. sadparent

    Nicole,
    You said you’d never heard anyone say that “believers” need to cut off ties with non-supporting family members.

    OK, well let me say this: I am a believer in Christ – a born again believer. Yet my grown child was counseled to cut off “all” communication with me “by older and wiser council”. “No phone calls, no e-mails, no surprise visits…for one year..at least”. “And by doing this, God will bring about restoration.”

    Nicole, that was two years ago…and you’re absolutely right – that is not biblical. Not at all.

    You’d said you would be interested in reading about criticism from someone who’s ACTUALLY been there. I recommend you check out this blog: http://www.gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com That person has definitely been there.

    SP

  30. Bill,
    I wonder how you would interpret the fact that “churches teach” people every week. Some of them have tax-exempt status, some don’t.
    With the current climate in DC against free speach, how do you see that coming down?

  31. Bill Fawcett

    Jake,

    That’s not a problem, the Missouri laws (as would be expected) do not regulate free education. Law have been enacted to regulate schools which charge an issue degrees or certificates – to address the issue of sham schools.

    And any church-related post-secondary school (with tuition) should be able to do the homework and get the exemption.

    Laws regulating higher education are not in place to regulate content but rather as a consumer protection.

    That being said, the hate-crimes bill does give one pause.

  32. TimH

    http://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/category/bridal-paradigm/

    I found this site a little while ago… thought you might be interested in some of it….

  33. Tim,
    http://www.gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com is phenominal. I’ve read things from others who have written -telling of their time spent in IHOP, but this, THIS is words from the ex-IHOP intern’s mouth.
    I’d researced the many cult aspects, but finally I read something written by someone who went through it and then had their eyes OPENED.
    Talk about energizing my prayer time for my son! Worked like a B12 shot.

    SP

  34. TimH

    Also, this just came my way… read the “prophetic” word from Mike Bickle of the “Kansas City Prophet Days”

    http://www.apostasyalert.org/REFLECTIONS/kingdom_violence.htm

  35. sadparent

    TimH,
    Thank you VERY much for that ‘apostasyalert.org/REFLECTIONS’
    That was excellent.

    My son, prior to cutting me off, was so loving, caring and biblically sound in his beliefs. Since Mike Bickle et al have taught him so many SPIRITUAL things, he’s changed 1 0 0 %. Mama’s only “practicing religiosity” according to him. This is what this “ministry” has taught him. IHOP has counseled him <-per his last letter.. to cut off ALL communication with mom for "one year at least". That was in 2007.

    You don't need a college degree to do that.

    Let me add that prior to his involvement in Contemplative 'prayer', he was a loving son.
    Play with demons and you'll get burned–every time.

    You also do not need a college degree for Contemplative… imagine that!

    SP

  36. Diane S.

    Sadparent,

    I was one of those caught up in the whole Charismatic/Vineyard/IHOP/Contemplative/
    Heresy of the Day/Movements. I also grew up in a conservative Pastor’s home, and graduated from a conservative Bible College.

    God has a way of continually hammering away at any idols and false teaching that are put in His place. It took a lot of time for me, but I gradually began to see the inconsistancies, legalism, bad fruit, and downright dishonesty and harm that was going on. It was a very rude and painful awakening, but I thank God for every bit of it!

    I honestly believe that your son will eventually come to the same place…you’ve given him a good foundation, that will always be in the back of his mind. I think he just needs to experience the reality of what’s really going on. When he does, it will be very painful, so just love him through it.

    You will continue to be in my prayers!
    Diane

  37. sadparent

    Diane,

    You said, “you’ve given him a good foundation, that will always be in the back of his mind”..I am trusting God on that one. My son and I used to be very close – able to discuss just about anything with each other. I am continually amazed that he bought into all of the IHOP teachings – Joel’s Army, Bridal Paradigm, etc. etc. I am trusting God at His Word.

    I remember him standing in my kitchen back in 2006 telling me that MY DAD had cancer because HIS DAD had committed suicide. He quoted something out of the OT where God said He would visit the curses of one generation to another.. THAT was an IHOP teaching! They left out the part that said, “visit the curses of one generation to another OF THOSE WHO DESPISE ME”. Whoops! My Dad served the Lord right up until the day before he died.

    Join me in prayer, Diane. I’m praying a hedge of thorns around my son and his wife. I am asking God to remove the blinders from their eyes.

    Your kind thoughts are greatly appreciated.

    SP

  38. drex

    “I guess what has me totally stumped is how can the IHOP leadership convince someone that cutting off all ties (ALL ties) to their family is in God’s will? Like doesn’t that totally go against scripture?”

    SP I can’t give you the exact scriptures but it does say in the bible to not be unequally yoked, that means you wouldn’t put a strong ox with a weak ox. Also Luke is my favorite teach about it, but Jesus himself in Lk 4:14-4:30 that a Prophet will be rejected in his own hometown, that also means it will be very difficult for you to minister to family members, and anyone who you are consistent contact and fellowship with.

    there are MANY bible schools and universities that suggest their student to become cut off from family, friends, etc. So that they may focus on God without distraction.

    However it is not for me to judge either way, Many many many many people who were very knowledgeable in OT teachings rejected Jesus as the Messiah.

    If what you claim is true pray more fervently for those who are teachings these things, than for anyone who learns from them.

  39. annunk

    Drew, also amazing is IHOP convincing them that after they’ve cut off Mom and Dad, that they are still “honoring” them.

    But that’s they way IHOP plays the game. SP isn’t the only one. I know of several other families who’ve experience, not identically the same, but very close to what SP has experienced.

    And does Mike Bickle or Allen Hood care about this heartache? Not one bit.

  40. drex

    There is such a thing as honoring your parents from a distance, what should those people that have abusive parents do? How can I honor my father, and yet still get beat, cussed, tormented, etc.

    in Luke 9:57-62 tells of those who would follow Jesus. specifically verses 61-62 read ” Still another said “I will follow you Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” 62 Jesus replied “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the Kingdom of God.”

    Which is better to honor your earthly father of your Heavenly Father? Then who’s sin is it, if you disobey your Heavenly Father to honor your earthly one?

    Matthew 23:9 reads: And do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one Father and he is in heaven.

    Our earthly parents are to raise us so that our Heavenly Father can show us the way, so that we can do his specific will for us.

  41. Annunk

    The way Sadparent’s son is behaving toward her is not honoring, but rather, dishonoring. Yet Sadparent’s son has stated that he “still honors” her.

    To honor someone is to hold them in high esteem – not tell them to stay away, shut-up and be invisible. That is DIShonor. And yet IHOP has convinced this son that he’s doing all that he’s doing in the name of Jesus…

    How can anyone be that deceived? Amazing. But I’ll put money on this: that he’s still praying, asking God for His blessings and probably not telling one single soul what he’s doing (not done) to his parents. And I’ll bet God’s not letting those blessing pour in either.

    That scripture in Luke that says if a man does not hate his father and his mother…he cannot be my disciple… means choosing God’s way over the way of unbelieving parents, friends and etc. It doesn’t mean to DIS them.

  42. jarrod

    Drex

    you said “SP I can’t give you the exact scriptures but it does say in the bible to not be unequally yoked, that means you wouldn’t put a strong ox with a weak ox.” I hope you realize that you have changed the meaning of this text to suit a defense for an unbiblical practice. Pauk tells us not to be unequally yoked to unbelievers. It is not ok to take a verse out of context and make it say what you want it to. A verse without a context is just a pretextto a proof text. It has zero to do with strong believers and weak believers for we know that the strong are to bare with the weak not throw them away.

    You said ” Also Luke is my favorite teach about it, but Jesus himself in Lk 4:14-4:30 that a Prophet will be rejected in his own hometown, that also means it will be very difficult for you to minister to family members, and anyone who you are consistent contact and fellowship with.” This verse does not imply that it will be difficult to minister to them you are in consistent contact with. If that were the case the entire paradigm for Christian discipleship would fall apart. How could a pastor minister to his flock ?

    You said ” there are MANY bible schools and universities that suggest their student to become cut off from family, friends, etc. So that they may focus on God without distraction.” Prove it. My college did no such thing nor can I bring to mind any real bible college or seminary that has such a practice. I will say that many cults do practice this however.

    You say “in Luke 9:57-62 tells of those who would follow Jesus. specifically verses 61-62 read ” Still another said “I will follow you Lord; but first let me go back and say goodbye to my family.” 62 Jesus replied “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the Kingdom of God.” Once again the context is vastly important, we are dealing wih a believer and a family who more than likely isn’t believing the man wants to look back and say farewell but he may not ever come back to follow. this is not Sp’s predicament she is not an unbeliever she is a fellow sister. careful friend that you do not call God’s children worldlings to support your defense.

    you said “Matthew 23:9 reads: And do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one Father and he is in heaven.

    Our earthly parents are to raise us so that our Heavenly Father can show us the way, so that we can do his specific will for us.” So do you call your dad by his first name now ? Probably not. Jesus is again in context talking to the people about the pharisees, He says call know man father, teacher or rabbi. why ? does He mean that its wrong for me to call Jerry Taylor Father ? Or does he mean that it is wrong to give men the elevation and absolute title and authority that belong to God and His Christ ? Which is what the Scribes and Teachers of the law wanted. Bottom line. Unless SP has committed some sin that she is unrepentant of and has been placed under discipline from the church her son is dishonoring her by having no contact and is displeasing the Lord. It is not ok for us as children of our parents to cut off contact with them over disagreements on theology thats redonculous. If Sp is an unbeliever or unrepentant in sin then excommunication may be in order , If Sp simply disagree’s with the practice and theology of IHOP and can be over baring then cutting off communication is unacceptable and there is no real sound biblical argument for it period. I welcome your response.

    the grey coats.

  43. drex

    My sister is currently attending a bible/ministry school in PA, she felt VERY strongly that God wanted her to go. Her adoptive parents (long story) are firm believers in Christ, they did not support her decision, and felt that she was following more for her own heart that God’s will at first. However God has provided all the finances for her to be able to go, and the school does not allow her to have a job, prohibits dating in the school, doesn’t allow internet access, cell phones, cars, etc. However she is allowed to make one or two 15 minute phone calls a week I believe.
    The school does this so that the student may be allowed to focus fully on God’s work in their life.

    There are more than just one direct meaning to all of those verses, It will be very hard for you to do God’s will if your partner, parent, sibling, etc does not believe that you’re doing God’s will. That also is being unequally yoked, you are tied to someone that is hindering you from being obedient to God.

    The way that we’ve been told from one side of the story is that SP’s son is doing this and doing that to dishonor her, from that side of the story yes that is true his actions are not lining up. However we do not know both sides. That verse about the man saying goodbye to his family, not only refers to ungodly parents. It refers to no matter what the situation is if God tells you to move, you move, you do His will.

    A prophet will not be accepted in his home town is very clear. You get saved and go home, if they aren’t saved they will question all of your actions, the same goes for ANYONE whether saved or not. SPjr (because I don’t know your son’s name, not meaning to be offensive.) may believe and know that he is doing God’s will, and sp might not believe it so she will consistently question it.

    I’m not trying to come to ihopu’s defense, I am in a situation like sp’s son. When I feel God move, EVERYONE who is around me questions it, and tries to put doubt into it. The way he’s going about it is not right, but I do believe that you can still honor your parents while separating yourself from them if the situation calls for it.

    I do however love the idea of 24/7 nonstop prayer, and worship. it is hard for me to wrap my mind around the concept that you can become controlled by a demonic influence if you’re worshiping God with your entire being. I haven’t made any decisions on Ihop yet, but I love to worship, and I’m still learning to pray.

  44. sadparent

    Drex,

    Here’s both sides of the story: My son went to IHOP and I was thrilled. I thought he was going to school to learn to one day be a minister. After a year and a half, I heard an apologetics speaker and later heard from him that IHOP was not a good institution at all.

    I did 3 months of research and Googling. I discovered that IHOP was 1. not a college and 2. had all the earmarks of a cult.

    I called my son and voiced my concern and he was furious. He thought I had called IHOP occult rather than a cult.

    I didn’t hear from him for full month and drove up to KC to see him and his now wife and child. I was told to leave their home after 15 minutes and was told I was not welcome there – that I “just didn’t understand IHOP at all”.

    3 weeks later, my son sent me an e-mail telling me that “after s/w older and wiser council it is my decision to have NO communication with you for one year – at least”.

    And Drex? that bit about it not being possible to get involved with demonic influence if you’re giving yourself completely over to God in worship – that would be correct except that IHOP has their kids worship using Contemplative Prayer. CP is no different than TM. –You’re not meditating ON God’s word, you’re USING God’s word to meditate.

    You cannot do CP if your mind is active. You have to enter “the silence” the “inner part of your mind” or “the mental void”. That isn’t the way my Lord instructed me to pray. He was using His mind when He prayed. I’ll be obedient and do the same.

    If you end up with IHOP, Drew, you WILL end up doing Contemplative Prayer. You will end up cozying up with familiar spirits.

  45. drex

    Bleh forget that. Dude thats messed up, and extremely discouraging to me. I’ve been looking at some stuff about Todd Bentley just now “the “Gift of Faith” came upon me and God told me to kick this woman in the face”.

    I just want to receive the Holy Spirit, not the convulsing, not mooing like a cow. I just want whatever the Holy Spirit wants to give me. How can we determine the difference now? I’ve seen people fall out under the Spirit, and I’ve seen them “Drunk in the Spirit”, I’ve never seen the jerking and stuff. I’ve seen the uncontrollable laughter, I’ve experienced uncontrollable weeping, so I know that God can give you laughter like that. I just don’t know now, whats pure and whats junk.

    Has anyone heard anything about Karen Wheaton and Chosen, Damon Thompson or The Ramp church?

  46. Annunk

    Hey Drex,

    I don’t know about Damon Thompson or Ramp church, but Karen Wheaton hangs with Lou Engle.

    Lou Engle is a favored son of IHOP. i.e. Karen Wheaton probably is into the same stuff Lou is.

    Let me know if you need to hear about Lou..

  47. Annunk

    Just Googled Damon Thompson. IHOP loves – LOVES him. Totally into Contemplative. Totally.

    (and just a quick reminder, Contemplative prayer is no different that Transcendental Meditation..which has its roots in Hinduism and is occult – Contemplative prayer is occult. Very New Age.)

  48. drex

    I have to go with my discernment on Karen, and Damon. They are people of God, I just know that in my spirit. There’s always a way you can tell, by the fruit exactly. Damon was visiting a church here that I go to tonight. He was moved in the spirit about three separate things that the church has been praying for and heard from the Lord through intercession prayer.

    I haven’t met Lou yet, but I really lean towards the thought that mike and ihop don’t know this stuff is happening, and I pray that lou is there to restore order to God’s plan and will. I really do believe that limitless prayer and worship are something that He wants, it states in revelations that He has continuous praise and worship in heaven.

    Can you provide the links that pinpoint damon with ihop? I’ve googled him three separate times, and have not found anything about him.

  49. TimH

    Don’t know how it could be any plainer…

    Family Relationships Eph 6 NASB

    1(A)Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
    2(B)HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise),

    3SO THAT IT MAY BE WELL WITH YOU, AND THAT YOU MAY LIVE LONG ON THE EARTH.

  50. Annunk

    Drex,
    Just curious man, but why’d you ask about Damon and the others if you already had your mind made up? Be real man. You’re saying ‘I don’t know about Damon, Karen’ et al but you’re talking out both sides of your mouth. That’s uncool – totally.

    Man if you’re already into the New Age ya ya then just say so. I guarantee you that IHOP is filled to the brim with bunches of kids who really love Jesus. But then when they start the New Age crap, it all goes in the toilet. Drex, you can say you’re worshiping the Jesus we know to be God’s son all you want, but the minute you yank out the Contemplative worship (which is New Age) your statement just goes down the tube, man.

  51. sadparent

    TimH,

    I wish my son, who knows those scriptures really, really well, would take a minute to “contemplate” (sorry the pun) what’s going to happen in his life if he keeps on doing what he’s doing.

    God never does lie – does He? A man will reap that which he sows.

  52. drex

    ok to come completely clean. I’ve been actively back in church since july of 09. I’ve never felt close to God, and felt like I was actually saved until july. I just want to draw closer to Him, not further from Him. I went to a local Ihop branch here and for the first time saw the “convulsing in the spirit” I call it, I don’t want to say it’s not of God because if I’m wrong then I’m going to hell. At the same time if it is God I don’t want to miss out on it. I was a superficial christian my entire life, went to concerts like audio adrenaline, dc talk, the W’s, Clay Crosse, super tones. went to youth group events, and then about sophmore-junior year I stopped going. that was in 2003 I’ve not been around any christian people since then until july.

    I know the “bible stories” from when I was a kid in children’s church and what not, but I don’t really have a foundation established yet. I don’t have anyone that can guide me through the bible and help me in the “infancy state” of my walk with God. I go to a church that doesn’t have a disciple program right now because we’re trying to re-establish the church, so I’m just kinda winging it right now. I can’t say whether I have a true spirit of discernment or not, some things I don’t doubt, some things I do.

    I have some of misty edwards albums, I listened to them at work all day last week. I found that some of the songs I could listen to over and over and over again. I felt like I was worship God nonstop all day everyday that week. I had just broken up with my gf the monday of last week, so that “worship” turned into an escape, or like a drug. My mind was clear, my problems went away, I felt like I was grower close to God each time I worshiped like that. I also noticed that when I would turn the music off or someone got my attention I was annoyed or cranky. I remember thinking a few times that i felt like I was pushing into God through worship as a way to escape, like I worshiped to keep from dealing with my problems. All I wanted to do was worship, but I also felt like I was abusing worship.
    I didn’t want to use other worship music, just the misty edwards stuff.

    Sunday night last night I visited a church where Damon Thompson was the guest speaker, he is strong in the word of God. It’s hard to explain, but it was like service that I know. It didn’t feel like something strange and new, it was church. I know it was good, and it was God. We were in the word and I was fed.

    I don’t want to get caught and drug into crap, stuff thats not of God I don’t want. However I feel so strongly that if, IF this ihop stuff is crap I feel very strongly that I need to try and do something about it.

    I am sorry to have come across as double minded, or speaking out of both sides. I’m just confused, and honestly very disappointed because I just want to draw close to God it’s like no matter what I do it turns out to be something thats not of God. it’s like I can’t gain any ground towards God at all.

    God’s love, and the love for God has been hard for me. I grew up in a home where the “father figure” would twist scripture so that it would benefit him and we would be in the wrong. I would dread sunday because sunday after church there was always a huge fight. There was one point when he dug his nails into my arm in front of the pastor in an effort to impose his “authority” and his “position” as head of the house. Love is a very hard thing for me to understand because true love was never shown, the second most important love to God’s love is a parents love. It’s God’s love on earth, it’s supposed to be unconditional like His love is. I never got that, and it’s been like shackles and chains through out my life. I can’t relate in a relationship because of it, it’s the worst binding ever in my opinion.

    I want to be healed of these shackles, and the things that have bound me. It’s probably too much information, and if you don’t believe me there’s nothing else I can say. but thats it I want to be able to love him the right way, and worship him and do whatever I need to do for God to change me.

  53. jarrod

    You haven’t come across as double minded. you are double minded. Look you admit to not having a foundation yet you feel so strongly that this is of God. Listen you need to be founded on the word of God thats what gives discernment. It was clear to me from your earlier responses that you are not quite there. The Spirit of God is a person to be known not a buzz that one feels. The real Christian experience is so much greater and deeper than the Charismatic promises. I know this because I was one for years and well I am still waiting to see my generation have that John the baptist breakthrough they promised us. accept we are now in our 30s and they are promising it to the 20 somethings now. oh well.

  54. Annunk

    Drex,
    RE: I grew up in a home where the “father figure” would twist scripture so that it would benefit him and we would be in the wrong.”

    Mike Bickle and Allen Hood are doing the same identical thing. I’ll give you an example: God’s word says, ‘Be still and know that I am God.”
    What does that mean to you, Drex? I’ll tell you what it means in the Greek – it means, ponder God’s greatness, be settled. But what does IHOP teach? Mike and Allen teach that means to “do” meditation.

    We’re not talking about “meditate on God’s word” but rather, use God’s word to meditate. But how do you do it? That’s where they come in with repeating a word of phrase (from your bible, of course) over and over – for up to 20 minutes. THEN, you have to go into a mental “void” a place of ‘silence’. You cannot have any outside thoughts. Your mind is to be concentrating on absolutely NOTHING. No distractions of any kind in order to do this. Once there, you will ‘experience’ God.

    That’s like oh wow! Except the part about repeating a word or phrase over and over? That is totally unscriptural. It is, however, the exact recipe for transcendental meditation. Which is occult.

    IHOP therefore, is teaching an occult practice, yet they call it “prayer”. Contemplative prayer to be exact.

  55. Drew: When I first heard this teaching, taught by Mike himself, I was exactly where you are today. Not real strong in the Word, yet. Clear back in the early 80’s, Mike taught that the Holy Spirit, who lives in every believer, resides in the abdomen region, as a pure bright light. That having our “mind on the spirit” is actually focusing on this region and praying to it/him. Especially pray in tongues to this bright light. Even back then, my spirit was thinking “is this clearly spelled out in the scriptures?”

    Never spent much time doing this, and I am so glad I didn’t! It’s this meditative practice that unites all the religions of the world. Pretty sneaky, sneaking it into the church.

  56. Annunk

    Correct. And this spiritual “thing” that’s sneaking into churches is called New Age. But New Age isn’t in the bible – or is it?

    The bible refers to “it” as something that if it were possible, it would fool the very elect. I never thought I would see, up close and personal – the great falling away – but it’s happening. And born again believers, Christians, are soaking it in and calling it good. Wow.

  57. drex

    I’m sorry but i need someone to break it down for me, I’m sorry but now I’m just completely confused. when I first accepted God I cried, and I felt like my abs would contract on their own. Please be more specific.

  58. IWTT

    drex,

    What moved you to accept God, and why do you say God rather than tell us you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, was crucified, raised on the third day, and now resides at the right hand of the Father.

    Where were you when and what were you told that made you accept God?

  59. TimH

    SP,

    Sorry, I didn’t see your response until just now.

    God never does lie – does He? A man will reap that which he sows.

    Yep…

  60. drex

    lol I mean Jesus. sorry I had to get something taken care of at the hospital yesterday, so I’m on pain meds right now for it.

    I was not happy with my life anymore, and I called my old youth pastor and talked to him. He said that he had been praying for me, and knew I would call him. (he didn’t say he knew the day or anything just new that Jesus was calling me home.) He said that I had been trying to do things my way, and the Lord had allowed me to do it to show me I needed Him. Which I did, and still do. I started crying and knew that I didn’t want to keep going through life the way I had been. He said that Jesus was calling me like the prodigal son, telling me to come home to him. I came back to Jesus, I had turned away from him and I didn’t want that anymore. I knew there was a change in me that was made.

    So I do believe in Jesus, that he died for us, was raised, and is at the Father’s right hand. I think just for quickness I say God, or out of habit I say God, but mean Jesus.

    So theres really no reason behind me saying God instead of Jesus.

  61. Annunk

    Drex, I hope you get relief form your pain. (Just lifted a prayer for you)

    I overjoyed that you have made it final by asking Jesus to life through you. Not sure when that happened by your post, but I’m glad none-the-less.

    Sadparent’s son was fired up for Jesus, went to college, quit college and headed for Kansas City to become a part of IHOP. It’s sad for her because she said she raised him in the Lord – and yet now he’s gone into New Age via IHOP. He says he’s still fired up for the Lord but chooses to go against scripture.

    There really is no “excuse” for a Christian organization, college, prayer group or whatever to instruct one of its members to dis their parents. But that’s what IHOP did to Sadparent’s kid and also to several other families that have gotten in touch with SP.

    Drex, do yourself a big favor and stay away from IHOP. IHOP does “some” good teachings but there’s a lot of bad mixed in with the good. That’s how they managed to get Contemplative prayer in the door.

  62. Kyle Christensen

    My opinion is that you are viewing life from a worldly perspective (and a greek perspective as well) that says that “it’s all about how much you know”. the Hebrews didn’t think this way. for them, knowledge was “Action”. you were considered smart and intelligent by how you treated people and how you “walked it out”. For the greeks (which is the culture we have adopted since the greeks infiltrated their believes into all other cultures) it’s about what you know, how much head knowledge you have, that makes you intelligent. the reason IHOP is attacked by these kind of groups is because our objectives, mindset, and end goal is different than the culture that surrounds it. Were not interested in simply going to seminary, getting stuffed with head knowledge, and then going out and having a successful ministry (which is defined by how many people you have and how much money you make). Thats called the American dream. (IHOP will be accredited next year by the way!) We are here because we want to know Jesus, our Lord and savior, because that was His primary commandment in the Old and New testament (You shall Love the Lord Your God will all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. This is the first and greatest commandment (paraphrased)) The best ways to do that, as lined out in scripture, is to pray and worship Him, and to live a fasted lifestyle. Were learning how to “Walk it out”. The Holy Spirit is not an equation that you get down at some seminary. You cannot go to a four year school and walk out with a “Holy Spirit” Certificate under your belt. It’s something much more beautiful and much deeper than that. It’s called waisting your life at the feet of Jesus. The wisdom of God is foolishness to man. no matter how much we shove into our head, the only thing that matters is how much of it moves down into our heart and feet.

  63. Diane S.

    What about the second part of the Great Commandment? Loving God = Loving others in the same self-sacrificing service that you give to God; The two cannot be seperated! Our service to others is a direct reflection of the quality of our relationship to God, not how many hours we spend worshipping or in solitude. Remember the Sheep and the Goats….

  64. jarrod

    Kyle yo said

    it’s all about how much you know”. the Hebrews didn’t think this way. for them, knowledge was “Action”. you were considered smart and intelligent by how you treated people and how you “walked it out”.

    You have missed the point of the post , but thats ok. and your right the Hebrews didnt think this way , but they didn’t recognize their Messiah either so ya know. just sayin..

  65. Annunk

    Kyle,
    A successful ministry is one that brings the most people to know the Lord Jesus. You ought to check out http://www.streetscapeministried.org sometime. They work in Galveston, TX and are about as broke as a china dish but do they minister effectively? you better believe it. And I can name you p-lenty of others. And Kyle? did it occur to you that those people “simply going to seminar” in seminary might possibly have gone there to grow deeper in their calling with Jesus?

    “Waisting your life at the feet of Jesus”..rather an oxymoron there.. When I’m at Jesus’ feet, I’m sure not waisting anything.

    Kyle, if you don’t mind, please give me your scriptural references for Contemplative prayer. Mike Bickle thinks a lot of it. Help me out here, OK?

    And then, tell me exactly what happens when you, Kyle, practice Contemplative prayer. I’d sure like to know.

    Later

  66. jarrod

    kyle

    I would also like to thank you for your incredibly self righteous we are the only one who got it right attitude it always brightens my day. you assume we think Christianity is something a person learns from a book. you assume we are the frozen chosen simply because we point out that your leaders have a habit of embellishment and outright lying. What a joke. Thank you sir for making the authors of this blog look good . All you have done is prove our point again that many of you are elitist and woefully arrogant. thanks again for your comment. Awesome.

  67. Annunk

    p.s. to Kyle:
    I sincerely do hope that you will respond back..but if you don’t, I want you to know I just prayed for you ~

    You desperately need those blinders to fall off your eyes.

  68. Kyle Christensen

    Thank you for your comments! let me be the first to say that I do not have it all together, and that (as a student at IHOP) we are all weak and broken people looking forward to the return of our King 😀 the only one I consider in the elite category is Jesus.

    Diane S.
    “What about the second part of the Great Commandment? Loving God = Loving others in the same self-sacrificing service that you give to God; The two cannot be seperated! Our service to others is a direct reflection of the quality of our relationship to God, not how many hours we spend worshipping or in solitude. Remember the Sheep and the Goats….”

    Amen! I’m right there with u. One thing I do believe though is that the closer we get (in truth and in relationship) to Jesus, the more we become clearer reflections of Him and the more He rubbs off on us, thus greatly affecting the way we love people (because Jesus loves people an awful awful lot!) I believe we are to first Love God, because our love and understanding of God is the only way that we can be truly effective loves of people. this doesnt mean that we have to wait until we reach a certain depth of Love for God before we love people, we should always strive to love. 🙂

    jarrod
    “You have missed the point of the post , but thats ok. and your right the Hebrews didnt think this way , but they didn’t recognize their Messiah either so ya know. just sayin..

    I’m glad they didn’t recognize their Messiah, because If they had, then Jesus wouldn’t have died and we would not have the new covenant that we live under today. There were prophecies that had to come to pass through the Jews rejecting Him.

    Annunk
    “A successful ministry is one that brings the most people to know the Lord Jesus…. …broke as a china dish but do they minister effectively? you better believe it. And I can name you p-lenty of others. And Kyle? did it occur to you that those people “simply going to seminar” in seminary might possibly have gone there to grow deeper in their calling with Jesus?”

    – I agree. A successful ministry is one that bring people to “Know” Jesus, not just say a prayer one time and add them to a notch on your belt. And i would go one step further to say a successful ministry is one’s thats eye’s are focused on Jesus, and not on the ministry itself. And i apologize, I didn’t mean “simply going to seminary” as a negative stab on anyone going to seminary, I was more referring to IHOP’s focus’s and the Greek mindset. I bless anyone going to Seminary 🙂

    “Waisting your life at the feet of Jesus”..rather an oxymoron there.. When I’m at Jesus’ feet, I’m sure not waisting anything.”

    I agree! but from the worlds perspective (or Americas perspective) praying six hours a day, reading and digging into the word, and living a fasted lifestyle (while being active in your calling) is considered by many, (even in the church) to be a waist of time. especially the prayer part. ” why waist so much time locked in your closet or in the Prayer Room?? go get active! get into ministry!” It’s not that I don’t want to be active… I just want to be firmly connected to the God i’m being active for. Prayer and Worship are crucial elements (central, along with digging into the Word) to living a Christian life. And i hope you understand i’m not writing any of this in anger or with an elitist mindset, i’m simply enjoying the biblical truth of allowing fellow christians to sharpen each others steel 😀

    “Kyle, if you don’t mind, please give me your scriptural references for Contemplative prayer. Mike Bickle thinks a lot of it. Help me out here, OK?”

    hmm. Isn’t all prayer contemplative? I don’t see how this could be unbiblical, do you have any biblical references i could look up?

    “And then, tell me exactly what happens when you, Kyle, practice Contemplative prayer. I’d sure like to know.”

    If you are referring to “contemplative prayer” as praying while reading the bible, then I engage in this type of prayer every time I read the Word. I’ll be reading along, and then come across something that strikes me or gives me revelation… so i’ll think about it, ask the Holy Spirit to help me implement the revelation into my life, and simply talk to God about the scripture. a simple example would be “He is slow to anger and rich in love.” I would just dwell on it and pray for the Holy Spirit to help this to sink into my heart. and if the scripture was commanding me to do something, I would ask Him to help me implement that action into my life. God Bless!

  69. Kyle Christensen

    jarrod –
    “I would also like to thank you for your incredibly self righteous we are the only one who got it right attitude it always brightens my day.”

    – I’m sorry I came off this way, that was not my intention, please forgive me.

    “you assume we think Christianity is something a person learns from a book. you assume we are the frozen chosen simply because we point out that your leaders have a habit of embellishment and outright lying. What a joke.”

    – I don’t assume anything about you, it is you who are questioning IHOP and it’s practices, and I was simply trying to present a grid for you to see what IHOP truly stands for. As for our leaders having a habit of embellishing and outright lying, please share with me what you are referring to and i will happily correct the misunderstanding.

    Thank you sir for making the authors of this blog look good . All you have done is prove our point again that many of you are elitist and woefully arrogant. thanks again for your comment. Awesome.”

    – Again, I apologize for any appearance of elitism or arrogance. we as humans are all in the same boat, and IHOP shares that view. IHOP would be the first to admit they don’t have it all together and that we need the whole body of Christ in order to function correctly.

  70. jarrod

    Read the blog Kyle . not just one post. read the articles we have written check the history of the movement. I am not interested in whether or not you guys have it all together thats not the point. Your apology is accepted. We are not questioning IHOP we are exposing it. The false prophecies and teachers that surround it. read the blog. I am not trying to make up my mind. i know how i feel about the entire prophetic movement not just IHOP . I already have come to the conclusion that the followers are well meaning but misguided. The teachers are in grave danger and the prophets are false. I am trying to warn them that don’t know better yet . So they don’t sell out for less than the true gospel and authentic BIBLICAL Christianity.

  71. annunk

    Kyle –
    Man, you blew me off RE: my question about whether you did or didn’t practice Contemplative prayer.

    “If you are referring to “contemplative prayer” as praying while reading the bible, then I engage in this type of prayer every time I read the Word.”

    Reading while praying, now that ain’t contemplative, kid. So like what – Are you a brand new intern? or does Contemplative turn you off? I mean, all the interns follow Bickle’s teaching about it. He says everyone should do it daily or as often as possible.

    You don’t do it, man? What gives?

  72. Kyle Christensen

    jarrod
    “Read the blog Kyle . not just one post. read the articles we have written check the history of the movement.

    – If you asking me to go through every single blog posting, represent IHOP and unveil the “lies” on each one, and then expect me to be able to answer the flood of replies that each of my postings on each Blog will surely yield from people who are, as you put it, already convinced of what they believe (which usually means that it doesn’t matter what I say, even if it’s truth, in the end I will be accused of lying myself, or of having false sources, even though I myself am, in part, a product of IHOP schooling) Then I say ok! I will do this. Even though my efforts are more than likely in vein, I love you guys and I love IHOP, and i feel that even if one person is benefited through my efforts, it will be worth it. again, IHOP is not the only place you can find God or true teaching (doctrine) or anything ridiculous like that, but IHOP is the institution set in place by God through the partnership of man that is currently under attack, so I will take up the roll as defender on this site. Also, i’ll be the first to mention you can find an unlimited amount of material online that negatively parades IHOP to the world using %100 lies and fake data. if you are using these as sources I completely understand how you came to hold the view that you have regarding IHOP. I would hold the same views. however I actually have been a student at IHOP for seven months now and know from first-hand experience that these are fabricated lies made up by People (many of which are christians) who do not like what IHOP stands for, and even though IHOP has been attacked time and time again, it continues to Grow and be blessed by God for it’s Doctrinal Accuracy and dedication to scriptural truth, its focus on a holy and consecrated lifestyle that is fueled by the Holy Spirit, and it’s dedication To Jesus Christ our returning King. And I have checked the history of the movement. I have to go but I will post more later, God Bless!

  73. jarrod

    Challenge accepted. I will hold you to your word Kyle. As mother Teresa said “come and see.” our info is backed up by testimony and historical facts that have not been refuted, not a single time. So It is my pleasure to invite you to take up the cause for the ministry you love and may the Lord judge between us and you with mercy. I recommend you start with the vindication of Ernie Gruen. and then go on to Julies story. Both are trustworthy accounts of the past. Oh you have made my day I feel like dancing. Lets do this I welcome you with joy and great expectation. I do believe you will have a what do they call it oh yes a paradigm shift.

  74. Kyle Christensen

    lol! don’t get your hopes up to high 😀

    I do hope that you are not judging an entire school souly on the stories of a few individuals. If this is the case, you are only receiving input from a small minority of people who have left IHOP for various reasons, who’s opinions are obviously bias to some degree or another. This leaves out the complete other side (and the majority) of people who have benefited from this school. I’m sure you would not take this approach if you were judging the Church as a whole… as you would not judge Jesus only by His followers. Every single organization on the planet, christian and non christian, has people who don’t agree with it, give it a bad name, or have a bad experience with it for one of any number of reasons. I can say assuredly that for every negative story you have on file, I have 100 positive ones. I say that because it’s true. I walk into this with confidence that truth will prevail no matter what gets thrown at it or what comes against it… because it is truth! So i believe that truth will be revealed if both parties involved allow it to be recognized, whether that be you or me. Even though I am supremely confident in my stance biblically and experientially, I am willing to let truth by my primary leading factor, and I hope that you are willing to do the same (even though from your last comment it seems as if you have made up your mind completely, and are not even willing to open up to the possibility of error. either way, I bless you and hope we both grow stronger through this experience.)

    might I add humbly that it seems that you are the one leaning more towards the elitist mindset I was accused of earlier 🙂 Bless you.

    Annunk
    “Man, you blew me off RE: my question about whether you did or didn’t practice Contemplative prayer.”

    Contemplative prayer, as is IHOP’s definition to my knowledge, is a combination of meditation, biblical study, and prayer (all three of which are completely biblical, if you want I can list references). I don’t understand how this is considered avoiding your question. I engage in this activity daily and thoroughly enjoy it 🙂 Bless you.

  75. Kyle Christensen

    Here is my injection to this specific post:

    Allen Hood says that at IHOPU you can learn to prophecy thru a camera. No, not to a camera. But, thru one. I’ll leave you to figure that one out.

    – Allen is referring to people who ALREADY have a media anointing/calling (who are gifted in this area and want to use their gifting to honor God) Here they can learn to master their specific area of gifting (post-production, camera work, whatever) while taking biblical courses so that they can grow spiritually as well as in their calling in media. They are, in fact, the tools that God uses to release the will of God “though” the cameras and internet to places that would not have been able to receive it before. theres nothing strange or off about it 🙂

    “Perhaps it is all part and parcel of an anti-intellectualism which is especially virulent in the radical Charismatic camp (Hood is the ONLY ONE in the ‘faculty’ who has earned an M.Div.).

    – I’m a first year student taking a course called “Introduction to Biblical Doctrine” which goes into the importance of theological study. We are required to have our own “Strong’s” exhaustive concordance, along with an inter-linear bible that has the Strong’s numbers above every word, so that we can look up the words in the original Hebrew or Greek. after this class every day we go to our own bibles and read for hours on end, in the midst of praying. Explain to me how this is anti-intellectualism? also, Allen Hood is not the only one that has a Doctorates or masters degree.

    He says, “Students don’t get a degree but do get a media anointing.” A media anointing eh? Sounds like IHOP’s ‘university’ has figured out how to advertise for free.

    This is a mis-quote. He says “…whether its in the forrunner school of ministry, or whether its the forrunner music academy, or whether its the forrunner media school, its all from the foundation of that prayer room; where riggerous biblical study and prayer and fasting come together; which then leads to them prophesying on their instrument; whether the instrument is the bible and proclaiming their voice, or whether its singing, or whether its THAT CAMERA THAT RELEASES THE MESSAGE OF THE LORD, they are prophesying, they are messengers.”

    There is no reference to not getting a degree or receiving a media anointing.

    here is a link:
    http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000045235

    “A university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants degrees in a variety of subjects. A university provides both undergraduate and postgraduate education.” Now call me unspiritual…but apparently IHOP has faulted on the VERY FIRST definition of a university, which is ‘grants degrees’ (we won’t go into the necessity of postgraduate ed….just too easy). Perhaps just as IHOP is tasked with changing the face of Christianity in one generation so they are also now charged with changing the VERY definition of higher education.

    IHOP is completely legit and has gone through all the governmental loops. They are recognized by the state. And they never said that they were tasked with changing the face of Christianity in one generation. What they HAVE said is that GOD is going to change the face of Christianity in one generation in the end times (a reference for this is Luke 21:32 – “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away til all things take place.”)

    The reason this debate is taking place is because it was not only taken out of context, but completely re-phraised to say something that never was said by IHOP. God Bless!

  76. And, Kyle, if you don’t understand the significance of the Vindication of Ernie Gruen, please take some time and read his very well documented evidence of what was going on in the 80’s, entitled “the Abherent Teachings and Practice of Kansas City Fellowhip. It’s very important in understanding the foundation of all of this. Happy reading!

  77. And I join Jarrod in his happy dance!

  78. Kyle Christensen

    Might I ask if it is the prophetic movement in general that you have a problem with? that is the vibe i’m picking up from your site. if so, could you please explain biblically why this is so?

    thanks!

  79. Annunk

    May I ask you if you’re going by what Allen Hood teaches about Contemplative. You know, it’s OK! Or are you’re praying about it?
    Don’t answer that.

    I’ll bet money you have absolutely no intentions of praying about it, – reading or even browsing Ernie Gruen’s piece.

    Kyle, you comment on how wonderful IHOP is, talk about it becoming an accredited Univ by next year, (I’ll put money on that, too), talk about how everyone there absolutely knows God, prophecies for Him..(some thru a camera lens or whatever) and you don’t take time to seriously read one single thing on this blog and selah..ponder it.

    In order to DO Contemplative, you’ve got to repeat a word or phrase, sometimes for 20 min. Your mind must go into a mental “void” – a silence.. in order for it to be successful. Or am I wrong, Kyle? Can you do it with distractions? You know – stereo playing, TV on, kids screaming, girlfriend/mother-in-law griping at you?

    You tell me. Is this how it’s done?

  80. Kyle Christensen

    You make me smile 🙂

    Annunk-
    “May I ask you if you’re going by what Allen Hood teaches about Contemplative. You know, it’s OK! Or are you’re praying about it?
    Don’t answer that.”

    – I’m going by what IHOP (including Allen Hood) teaches about prayer (including contemplative prayer) I have no idea why this is such a stickler for you haha

    “I’ll bet money you have absolutely no intentions of praying about it, – reading or even browsing Ernie Gruen’s piece.”

    – feel free to read the comment i just posted on the Ernie Gruen piece 🙂

    “Kyle, you comment on how wonderful IHOP is, talk about it becoming an accredited Univ by next year, (I’ll put money on that, too), talk about how everyone there absolutely knows God, prophecies for Him..(some thru a camera lens or whatever) and you don’t take time to seriously read one single thing on this blog and selah..ponder it.”

    – hmm i didn’t say most of that at all, maybe you should go back and read what I said. I said were all weak and broken people just like you and every other person that Jesus graciously saved through His mercy.

    “In order to DO Contemplative, you’ve got to repeat a word or phrase, sometimes for 20 min. Your mind must go into a mental “void” – a silence.. in order for it to be successful. Or am I wrong, Kyle?

    – your wrong 😛 well, according to the IHOP definition (which is what your asking for). I’ve already told you what contemplative prayer is, i’m not going to bother with repeating myself, bless you though.

    “Can you do it with distractions? You know – stereo playing, TV on, kids screaming, girlfriend/mother-in-law griping at you?”

    – Sure!

    by the way, i just realized that you guys misunderstood me on one point:

    I said:
    “…Were not interested in simply going to seminary, getting stuffed with head knowledge, and then going out and having a successful ministry (which is defined by how many people you have and how much money you make). Thats called the American dream.”

    I was not referring to a successful ministry being one that has a lot of people and makes a lot of money, i was pointing to that being the Americanized version of success adapted into Christian culture (which is why i said, “Thats the american dream”) i do not believe either of those elements makes a ministry successful. just wanted to clarify 🙂

  81. Annunk

    Question for Grey Coats:

    Not at a location WITH my Bible currently..

    What’s that scripture(s) that says when it will be like right before His return?

    ..will be rebellious, thankless to their parents, unloving..what was that?

  82. Kyle Christensen

    the one that says “Father will rise up against Son, and son will rise up against Father”?

  83. Kyle Christensen

    Matthew 10:21
    Brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death

    Luke 12:53
    They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.

    hope this helps

  84. >IHOP is completely legit and has gone through all the governmental loops. They are recognized by the state.

    Kyle, the question is not if IHOP has a building permit or a tax number. The question is this – is it “completely legit” or only “mostly completely legit?” (Think about the absolute nature of the *completely* claim that you have made). You imply that it has gone through the “governmental loops.” Are they telling students that IHOPU is recognized by the state?

    In what manner are they recognized?

    Here is the full list of post-secondary schools recognized by the State of Missouri. It includes Colleges and Universities, Barbering schools, Bible Schools, even Bartendering Schools (regular bartendering, not holy ghost bartendering).

    http://highered.mo.gov/ProgramInventory/viewFullList.do

    IHOPU is not on the list.

    No one is saying that many Bible Schools, esp. church based, do not fly under the radar. But calling the IHOP bible school a “university” is a bogus as calling a preschool “Kidz Corner University.” At least with the preschool the joke is obvious.

  85. Kyle Christensen

    “No one is saying that many Bible Schools, esp. church based, do not fly under the radar. But calling the IHOP bible school a “university” is a bogus as calling a preschool “Kidz Corner University.” At least with the preschool the joke is obvious.”

    – i’m a current student. all the classes i’m taking are currently worth credits, and all the classes that IHOPU offers are up to the credential standard. IHOPU will be accredited next year, they’ve filled out all the paperwork and are working on opening themselves up to international students by next year as well. also, when they become credited next year, since they are already up to the standard this year, this year will count for credits.

    this is not even the reason i chose IHOP, but seems to be a huge reason for you to not like IHOP. every student knows what they’re paying for when they sign up for one of the schools here, and everyone i know and talk to are thoroughly enjoying the experience and growing deeper in their spiritual walk with God (including true doctrine, biblical study, etc)

    if you can’t wait until next year to apply to IHOPU and have to go to an accredited school, then go for it! no ones stopping you and no one is saying we are better than anyone else. God Bless!

  86. Kyle,

    I’m sorry that the facts cause you displeasure. You are invested in IHOPU and so my post offends you. It would be like me exposing someones favorite college football team with an 0/10 record as being deficient. It smarts. Doubtful that any argument will dissuade a fan…or a fanatic.

  87. Kyle Christensen

    Heres my post that picked apart this post for all those who seem to have missed it Nathaniel:


    Here is my injection to this specific post:

    Allen Hood says that at IHOPU you can learn to prophecy thru a camera. No, not to a camera. But, thru one. I’ll leave you to figure that one out.

    – Allen is referring to people who ALREADY have a media anointing/calling (who are gifted in this area and want to use their gifting to honor God) Here they can learn to master their specific area of gifting (post-production, camera work, whatever) while taking biblical courses so that they can grow spiritually as well as in their calling in media. They are, in fact, the tools that God uses to release the will of God “though” the cameras and internet to places that would not have been able to receive it before. theres nothing strange or off about it

    “Perhaps it is all part and parcel of an anti-intellectualism which is especially virulent in the radical Charismatic camp (Hood is the ONLY ONE in the ‘faculty’ who has earned an M.Div.).

    – I’m a first year student taking a course called “Introduction to Biblical Doctrine” which goes into the importance of theological study. We are required to have our own “Strong’s” exhaustive concordance, along with an inter-linear bible that has the Strong’s numbers above every word, so that we can look up the words in the original Hebrew or Greek. after this class every day we go to our own bibles and read for hours on end, in the midst of praying. Explain to me how this is anti-intellectualism? also, Allen Hood is not the only one that has a Doctorates or masters degree.

    He says, “Students don’t get a degree but do get a media anointing.” A media anointing eh? Sounds like IHOP’s ‘university’ has figured out how to advertise for free.

    This is a mis-quote. He says “…whether its in the forrunner school of ministry, or whether its the forrunner music academy, or whether its the forrunner media school, its all from the foundation of that prayer room; where riggerous biblical study and prayer and fasting come together; which then leads to them prophesying on their instrument; whether the instrument is the bible and proclaiming their voice, or whether its singing, or whether its THAT CAMERA THAT RELEASES THE MESSAGE OF THE LORD, they are prophesying, they are messengers.”

    There is no reference to not getting a degree or receiving a media anointing.

    here is a link:
    http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000045235

    “A university is an institution of higher education and research, which grants degrees in a variety of subjects. A university provides both undergraduate and postgraduate education.” Now call me unspiritual…but apparently IHOP has faulted on the VERY FIRST definition of a university, which is ‘grants degrees’ (we won’t go into the necessity of postgraduate ed….just too easy). Perhaps just as IHOP is tasked with changing the face of Christianity in one generation so they are also now charged with changing the VERY definition of higher education.

    IHOP is completely legit and has gone through all the governmental loops. They are recognized by the state. And they never said that they were tasked with changing the face of Christianity in one generation. What they HAVE said is that GOD is going to change the face of Christianity in one generation in the end times (a reference for this is Luke 21:32 – “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away til all things take place.”)

    The reason this debate is taking place is because it was not only taken out of context, but completely re-phraised to say something that never was said by IHOP. God Bless!


    Your facts are straight-up lies. a team having a 0-10 year is a fact. You are the one refusing to accept your error in this posting. no matter how much you point at me and laugh, that doesn’t change the truth, sorry mate.

    IHOP does not claim to be anything that it is not. everyone currently attending the school knows what they signed up for. and most of them are completely happy with their choice. God Bless

  88. sadparent

    Kyle,

    Just curious, but are you one of the interns who stays in the prayer room, feet up on the chair in front of them – knees supporting a laptop – and blogging away?
    Just asking. Cuz that was about all I saw when I visited KC IHOP. If Bickle wasn’t there, things were a tad on the casual side – i.e. no one doing anything but whatever. Not a whole-lot-a-prayin-goin-on.

    BLESSINGS! BLESSINGS! BLESSINGS!

    P.S. to Grey Coats – I’m giving God the glory for the ones I’ve helped get away from Contemplative. Feels real good.

  89. Kyle Christensen

    sadparent-
    “Just curious, but are you one of the interns who stays in the prayer room, feet up on the chair in front of them – knees supporting a laptop – and blogging away?”

    – sorry, not one of those. i’m actually a 2nd semester FMA student on the Music Production track. we can’t have our feet on chairs anyways 😛

    i’m sure there are people who take things very casual here. that is their own choice. however this is far from the standard here. you might see people doing biblical study, homework, etc. but this is all still engaging and good time spent. have you been here recently? in the time i’ve been here, around 7 months, it’s really been a fervent and active place of prayer.

    by the way, I read you posting about our grown-up son, and I just wanted to say that i’m sorry he is isolating himself from his family. That is not an IHOP teaching at all. we would NEVER, i repeat NEVER advice someone to do that, even if their parents were not christians. I have multiple first-hand instances dealing directly with IHOP staff with similar circumstances that the staff has advised in the exact opposite fashion as your son says he was advised. I am sorry he decided to do what he did, but that is not IHOP, that is his own choice. God bless

  90. Hey Kyle,

    Don’t get me wrong, I care don’t if you get a degree or not. I was simply reacting to your comment:

    “IHOP is completely legit and has gone through all the governmental loops. They are recognized by the state.”

    Because as we now both agree, your comment was not true. Being accredited “next year” and not being on the state’s list of recognized schools is not the same as being “recognized by the state.”

    Just setting the facts straight. Which I think was the intent of the original post.

  91. Annunk

    Kyle,

    I’ve been reading and re-reading every single thing you’ve written and it suddenly dawned on me. You, Kyle, are young – that’s a given – but you also believe that everyone who is on here, disagreeing with you is, well, stupid – according to the way you’ve been writing.

    I especially noted that one post: “…Were not interested in simply going to seminary, getting stuffed with head knowledge, and then going out and having a successful ministry (which is defined by how many people you have and how much money you make). Thats called the American dream.” (I feel like I’m hearing Bickle and Hood’s voice as I read that.)

    Do you have any idea how trite your comment is? Do you have any idea how loathsome you sound toward ANYone who is outside of IHOP. Anyone who “only” goes to church, reads their Bible and prays? You remind me of the high school kids I grew up with – they made it a point of rubbing it in anyone’s nose who wasn’t a part of their “club”.

    Let me tell you about Sadparent’s child – I’ve been following her blog for the last almost 3 years. Her kid loved the Lord Jesus, became an intern and got married to another IHOPer. Sadparent Googled (IHOP) and(cult), read up on it and brought it to his attention. Ya know what happened? He told SP that he had spoken with “older and wiser council” and due to that, had decided to cut off ALL communication with her for at least a year. (Though she’s still free to send money in the meanwhile.) He’s been keeping his end of the deal. She still hasn’t heard from him since sometime in 2007. That Contemplative really screwed him up. It sure wasn’t Jesus who led him to dis her for that length of time – or any length for that matter.

    And now for what you think I’m being such a stickler on: that Contemplative prayer that you’re saying is harmless? Well every time you do it, you are practicing occult. I honestly do not care that you disagree with me. Kid, you’re going to do what you’re going to do. You’re still at the age where you believe that anyone, except IHOP people over age 30-35 or so, is basically stupid. So you can blow this off – but I am personally warning you, Kyle. Your practicing Contemplative “prayer” is no different that playing with Tarot cards. Yeah, they’re two different things in what they are – but they’re both the same in that they both occult.

  92. Annunk

    Beyondgrace,

    Oh I’m not worried about IHOPU not being on the list… Kyle says IHOP will be an accredited University within a year. I’ve even marked it on my calendar..

    Post-secondary schools recognized by the state of Missouri… hmmm…Is there another list it might be on?

  93. Kyle Christensen

    “Because as we now both agree, your comment was not true. Being accredited “next year” and not being on the state’s list of recognized schools is not the same as being “recognized by the state.”

    – I was referring to IHOP being legal. they are a christian organization that is recognized by the state. as for the university end of things, i don’t know what to say really. I hope that you can acknowledge the rest of what is said in your post that is clearly false

    Your post that I would like you to tell me is true, after I have pointed out that it is not:

    “Allen Hood says that at IHOPU you can learn to prophecy thru a camera. No, not to a camera. But, thru one. I’ll leave you to figure that one out. Perhaps it is all part and parcel of an anti-intellectualism which is especially virulent in the radical Charismatic camp (Hood is the ONLY ONE in the ‘faculty’ who has earned an M.Div.). He says, “Students don’t get a degree but do get a media anointing.” A media anointing eh? Sounds like IHOP’s ‘university’ has figured out how to advertise for free.”

    ——

    Annunk-
    “I’ve been reading and re-reading every single thing you’ve written and it suddenly dawned on me. You, Kyle, are young – that’s a given – but you also believe that everyone who is on here, disagreeing with you is, well, stupid – according to the way you’ve been writing.”

    – i don’t believe any of you are stupid, i do believe a lot of what is presented on this site completely misrepresents IHOP by taking things not only out of context, but completely changing peoples words to present a false picture of IHOP.

    “I especially noted that one post: “…Were not interested in simply going to seminary, getting stuffed with head knowledge, and then going out and having a successful ministry (which is defined by how many people you have and how much money you make). Thats called the American dream.” (I feel like I’m hearing Bickle and Hood’s voice as I read that.)”

    – this was me in response to you’re horribly miss-represented post about what IHOP thinks of education (not talking about what word they use in the name of their school, i’m talking about the entire first half of your post) you are the one attacking IHOP when you don’t have any idea what they teach or how they operate today. you’re going off of things that happened in the 80’s and have, so far, not been able to present me with anything that you really have against the school today except for the title of the school itself. If you can get away with lying to people on your site (the first half of your post, which you still have failed to address me about) then I feel ok with putting a little rebuke and fire in my own posts.

    “Do you have any idea how trite your comment is? Do you have any idea how loathsome you sound toward ANYone who is outside of IHOP. Anyone who “only” goes to church, reads their Bible and prays? You remind me of the high school kids I grew up with – they made it a point of rubbing it in anyone’s nose who wasn’t a part of their “club”.”

    – I’ve explained why I said what I said a few times already, you keep bringing up the same points over and over. This was not a bash on anyone going to seminary. this was not an elitists opinion on why their school is better than anyone else’s. this is simply my attempt to help you understand the reasons why people go to this school even though it is, at the moment, not accredited. you are the one directly attacking IHOP. (not to mention me personally, my age (which you have no idea how old i am or not) and my immaturity.) I’ll be the first to admit i’m not perfect, but i’m running the race set before me so that I can achieve the prize, Jesus Christ. I don’t have any problem, or think i’m any better, than people who go to church and people who read their bible, and i said nothing that resembled that in any of my statements. I don’t think i’m better than people that arn’t saved! we as humans are all in the same boat, it’s only by God’s grace and will that He sent His son to die so that we could be saved.

    Let me tell you about Sadparent’s child – I’ve been following her blog for the last almost 3 years. Her kid loved the Lord Jesus, became an intern and got married to another IHOPer. Sadparent Googled (IHOP) and(cult), read up on it and brought it to his attention. Ya know what happened? He told SP that he had spoken with “older and wiser council” and due to that, had decided to cut off ALL communication with her for at least a year. (Though she’s still free to send money in the meanwhile.) He’s been keeping his end of the deal. She still hasn’t heard from him since sometime in 2007.

    – again, the “older and wiser councel” he refers to is his own choice of people that he listens to and may or may not be members of IHOP. if, by any chance, one of them was a staff member at IHOP, that was horrible advice and he should not be on staff. you could ask Mike himself and he would agree with me on that.

    “That Contemplative really screwed him up. It sure wasn’t Jesus who led him to dis her for that length of time – or any length for that matter.”

    – i don’t know how you just linked those two together, but please tell me (because I’ve already told you IHOP’s definition of contemplative prayer) what is it that you do not like about contemplative prayer? please tell me, and i will be sure to inform you if IHOP practices YOUR definition.

    “And now for what you think I’m being such a stickler on: that Contemplative prayer that you’re saying is harmless? Well every time you do it, you are practicing occult. I honestly do not care that you disagree with me.

    – I am all ears, and i’ve done nothing but answer your questions even though you accuse me of disagreeing with something that you wont even tell me! i think you don’t really know what it is about contemplative prayer (at least IHOP’s definition) that is so cult-like. this is why you keep it blurred and never really answer me, so that you can still hold onto it as a valid excuse to not like IHOP.

    “Kid, you’re going to do what you’re going to do. You’re still at the age where you believe that anyone, except IHOP people over age 30-35 or so, is basically stupid. So you can blow this off”

    – I don’t believe that at all, do I really have to say this for the 40th time? I believe ALL CHRISTIANS ARE IN THE SAME BOAT, that we need the entire body of Christ in order for their unique puzzle pieces (what they are good at and what they have revelation on) to be added to the overall body. again, you can keep attacking my age (22, just so you have a number you can truly attack) and my immaturity all you want, while avoiding my questions and repeating over and over things that I have over and over shown you that this is not true. I’m ok either way, because Jesus loves me and I love Him, therefore i’m already successful. i’m not looking for approval in your eyes, and at the same time, not ONCE, have I posted a comment about “how stupid you people are” or how “how ignorant you are” or anything like that that, but this seems to be your primary attack against me. God bless!

  94. Kyle,

    You said to me:

    “I hope that you can acknowledge the rest of what is said in your post that is clearly false.”

    Specifically what? Please provide quotes attributable to me- BeyondGrace aka Bill Fawcett. BTW, I never said anything about Allen Hood, prophecying through a camera or the (admittedlty laughable) “media anointing.”

    “- I was referring to IHOP being legal”

    No you were not, you were responding to questions about IHOPU’s legitimacy. Absolutely no one has argued that IHOP does not have a Federal ID number (74-2938029 for the record).

    http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2005/742/938/2005-742938029-0254368f-9.pdf

    -Bill

  95. Kyle,

    you said: “the reason IHOP is attacked by these kind of groups is because our objectives, mindset, and end goal is different than the culture that surrounds it.”

    No, Kyle, the reason IHOP gets attacked is because it’s teachings and practices are unbiblical. (ie: contemplative prayer)

    “ihop/ bickel on prayers

    On IHOP’s website they give instructions on how to pray contemplative prayers: (I think they took this page down, but I have it copied on my blog under contemplative prayer category)

    “Contemplative Prayer: Communing with the Holy Spirit who lives within you

    Derek Prince in his article “Protection from Deception” correctly addresses the deception behind contemplative prayer or “praying to the spirit within” when he says:
    “God the Holy Spirit is the Servant of the Father and the Son. This does not demean Him or make Him less than God. But it is a fact that we have to recognize about Him, which directs His activities and the things He does. In John 16:13-14 Jesus gives us a glimpse of the Holy Spirit’s ministry and activity: “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth: for He will not speak on His own authority [literally: from Himself] but whatever He hears He will speak: and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.” So we see: the Holy Spirit does not speak from Himself; He has no message of His own. Isn’t that remarkable? He only reports to us what He is hearing from the Father and the Son. Secondly, His aim is not to glorify Himself, nor to attract attention to Himself, but always He glorifies and focuses attention on Jesus. (and Jesus the Messiah has been raised and seated in heavenly places according to Eph. Chapter 1) That is the second important way to identify the Holy Spirit. ”

    You also said:
    “We are here because we want to know Jesus, our Lord and savior, because that was His primary commandment in the Old and New testament (You shall Love the Lord Your God will all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. This is the first and greatest commandment (paraphrased)) ”

    Going somewhere and living a monastic lifestyle is not according to the Biblical pattern. Jesus said to “go into all the world” and make disciples. He also said that those who love me OBEY my commands. We love Jesus by what we do when we obey him, it’s not about going to a prayer meeting and focusing within yourself to “go deeper” to be “in love” with Jesus that is love for him. There are many people who have sacrificed the things of this world to share the gospel with the lost and you are arrogant to think that only IHOPers are doing this. Believe me that if you think that every believer has a “greek mindset” you are mistaken. We are to be transformed by the attitude of our minds and have a Biblical worldview. There are mulititudes of believers who have that.

    Kyle, you also said regarding Sadparent’s son being told to cut off communication with his mother: “That is not an IHOP teaching at all. we would NEVER, i repeat NEVER advice someone to do that, even if their parents were not christians”…..

    It was told to her son by a leader very high up in IHOP. Maybe she will give you his name, as I don’t feel at liberty to say. This is a tactic of a controlling cult.

  96. Annunk,

    “Oh I’m not worried about IHOPU not being on the list… Kyle says IHOP will be an accredited University within a year. I’ve even marked it on my calendar..”

    It doesn’t work that way. First of all, they could probably be on the list NOW if they had bothered to register as a bible school. Many of the “schools” on that list do not issue degrees. I mean, what kind of degrees do you think “A Gathering Place – Wellness Ed. Center” issues? (Hint- it’s a certificate program).

    Second, it is almost impossible to move from an accredited college (undergraduate degrees) to an accredited university (undergrad+grad degrees) in one year. Just changing status from an unaccredited training program to a certificate-issuing Bible school would likely take at least a year.

    The obvious reason that IHOPU is not recognized by the State of Missouri is that the state would **never** recognize a school that claims to be a university but does not issue legitimate graduate (Masters and Doctorate) degrees that would be recognized by other schools and employers. This is the law of the land that we are subject to.

    The bottom line is that someone at IHOP made a MAJOR BLUNDER in trying to promote a school under false pretenses. The previous name, Forerunner School of Ministry, made perfect sense. I will predict that this move is going to bite them in the butt big time and you will see a reversal. Recently, I heard Wes Hall refer to it as their “Bible School” and not a university.

    -Bill

  97. Annunk

    Bill,
    You’re absolutely correct – I was being facetious 😉

    I find it very humorous when I see “graduates” going on to start their own “ministries” saying they’ve “graduated from Inter’l House of Prayer University” with a 4 year diploma..

    You’re right – they need to go back to calling it Bible school but that’s only partially true. It’s half Bible/half New Age. And all those kids wasting their time – it’ll take YEARS for the ones who “come out” to relearn the Bible – years.

  98. Sadparent

    TruthSpeaker’s right – it was Allen Hood.

  99. Kyle,
    Many interns do their internships, learn their “stuff”, pray endless hours per their requirements, finish their time in the prayer room, leave, go out into the real world . . . and crash and burn. They cannot function, according to their own testimonies, outside, in the real world where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. I have met many.

    I live in Kansas City. I not only have first hand knowledge of what was movin and shakin in the 80’s/90’s. I know MANY young people who have 1) fallen away from the Lord, 2) are terribly confused about what to believe anymore, 3) have bitterness towards IHOP, 4) don’t know how to walk free from sin, etc., all since they “left the prayer room.” Tell me something, and/or watch for something; Is the cure to everyone’s individual struggles for them to “spend more time in the prayer room?” That seems to be the common testimony, first hand btw, from these train wrecked young adults. Is that what the scriptures encourage us to do?

    Shouldn’t so much time in study, prayer, deliverance, worship, and on and on, equip these people to walk in the grace of God? Why doesn’t it? It’s because they preach a gospel other than the gospel Paul preached. Paul preached NOTHING but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. Mike’s teachings are full of “you gotta pray more, you gotta fast more, you gotta (fill in the blank) more!” It has a form of godliness, but it denies the power thereof. It isn’t the gospel, and that is the problem. You can talk about Jesus all day long. If it isn’t the Jesus preached by Paul, it’s the wrong Jesus.

    I realize that this is quite a bit off topic from the original post but I’m not sure where else to challenge you. IHOPU is supposed to be a University, that first and foremost preaches the gospel. They, at a minimum should be properly equipping the saints to function BY FAITH in the real world. Do they succeed in these two ways? I see the devestation in the wake of this movement. Years of devestation. Until I start seeing good fruit in the lives of people, outside of the confines of IHOP, I can’t see how they’re truly built on the Solid Rock. Not in the 80’s, 90’s, and now.

    Another point made by Sad Parent, and Annunk, and others regarding Contemplative Prayer. I don’t know how CP is taught at IHOP. But, I do know that the support they give for these practices is derived from the Catholic Mystics, not the scriptures. The only scripture quoted by Contemplatives from IHOP’s own web site, is the one that says “be still and know that I am God” (sorry, no reference – bible not at hand). So Kyle, and any one else who wants to chime in, are you comfortable going to Catholic teachings/practices to support a type of prayer, not practiced by Jesus or his disciples, not taught by Jesus or his disciples, yet resembles the New Age who get their methods from Buddhism and Hinduism?

    Keep in mind that these same catholic mystics, while practicing these type of prayers, and receiving various visions along the way, were also engaged, whole-heartedly, in the advancement of the church (read Kingdom) at whatever cost. This same “church” butchered and killed millions upon millions of bible believing christians, prior to the reformation simply because they would not bow their knee to Rome, and because they would not set aside the scriptures to embrace BAD TEACHINGS. Why would anyone go to these guys to learn from, and practice any kind of prayer taught by them?

  100. Annunk

    You’re right on the money, Julie. Absolutely 100% correct – and I truly believe IHOP has managed to work its way into what Brett Hume – CNN spoke about the other night.

    This country/this world has reached a point where the teens and 20’s on up have got it in their head that they should just be able to have whatever they want. Mom and Dad should support them long after they’ve left the nest. They shouldn’t have to “wait” to move up in a company, they should automatically get the office on the corner – with a view – next to an elevator etc. and spiritually, they should be able to “go in on Sunday” (or in IHOP’s case, every day) and just have God DO something for them. No true effort at all – just a “give me” attitude.

    I’ll do Contemplative – man, you are talking up close and personal with God when you do it. Like, He has you!

    The best thing a parent can do for his/her child is allow them to work – earn their way – grow up. IHOP however, on the spiritual level, wants everyone to be able to just jump on in, prophecy, do Contemplative, learn the IHOP literature and after “all” that, get a up close and personal position on God’s Forerunner staff. You da man!

  101. Gary D.

    2 Corinthians 11

    1I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. 2For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.
    3But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
    4For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
    5For I consider myself not in the least inferior to the most eminent apostles.
    6But even if I am unskilled in speech, yet I am not so in knowledge; in fact, in every way we have made this evident to you in all things.
    7Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you without charge?

    Doesn’t this cover the brunt of the problem here? At issue is not whether Jesus is “taught” so to speak, but rather (I think I can say this for many here who have experienced IHOP/modern prophetic movement teachings) is it the same Jesus that the Word of God teaches us about? It is Jesus, or another Jesus? Is it a “different spirit” if involvement in completive prayer is needed to bring you closer to God? And overall, is it the same gospel in its simplicity that saves souls? It can be said that Jesus is being lifted up all day long, but if this Jesus doesn’t line up with the Word of God (and you do have to be hardcore about rightly dividing the Word on this issue) then it isn’t God’s Son that’s being lifted up. Experience doesn’t count here. Feelings don’t count here. Discernment other then by the Word doesn’t count here. How nice they are doesn’t count. Devotion doesn’t count. Dreams and visions don’t count. Works don’t count. And so on and so on. The only thing that can count and matter is what does God say about it in His Word! The same is true for encounters with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will not add to God’s Word, but only act in accordance to it. So if things are happening outside the bounds of Scripture then it isn’t the Holy Spirit giving those experiences no matter how much we claim to be anointed by God and drawing from the Holy Spirit’s power in our lives. And if Scripture is twisted to justify false experiences, then it is no longer the gospel being proclaimed. I am a firm believer that error leads to more error. So if any part is wrong then no matter what you say you believe, when you begin to follow what is false, you are in error on the wrong side of the Truth no matter what you confess. It that were not possible then God would not have said what He did in 2 Corinthians 11 above. Neither do I believe in the reasoning “that some believe in the devils ability to deceive more then in God’s ability to bless.” Not when the means to avoid deception that has been gives to us is ignored and forgotten and we go on ff the edge of the cliff just the same. This is what happens when we put aside the warnings and guidelines of what is God in His Word. That is God’s assurance to us to not be deceived. Not blind faith in practice saying that whatever happens must be of God because we believe God won’t let us be deceived, so it must be of God when it happens (fill in the blank with whatever experience), especially when it is done in Jesus name (but back to which Jesus). THE ONLY THING WE HAVE AS AN ABSOLUTY SURE FOUNDATION TO DEPEND UPON AND LOOK BACK UPON TO TRUST IS HIS WORD! If that foundation is not correct then we are not standing upon the sure foundation. Everything has to be put in the Light of Scripture to see if it lines up or not and what doesn’t, even if it sounds and feels so right, has to be rejected. That’s not something easily done in our society today where truth is treated as relative and not absolute. This attitude has crept into the modern church world in subtle ways that isn’t recognized easily (but I’m judging and I’m not suppose to judge am I).

  102. Excellent point, annunk. I hadn’t made the connection between this generation’s demand for instant “success” to their demand for instant holiness, or whatever it is they want from God.

    And, Gary, love the scriptural exhortation to be believing the Jesus of the scriptures. You said all that I wanted. Kyle, I hope you’re still lurking out there.

  103. Gary D.

    There is also an aspect to today’s young Christians that didn’t exist when I was a young believer. It used to be you where taught the Word to be able to try things. Now youth are told that knowing the Word is just head knowledge that doesn’t do anything for you. What you really need is the power of God to make a difference. Never mind that it takes the Word:

    2 Corinthians 10:4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

    What casts down arguments, brings into captivity thoughts and all that: the Word. But now people are taught not to rely on head knowledge because it is religious and gets in the way of “more of God”. So you must ignore discernment from the Word with your head, yield to whatever is going on around you and then decide if it was God or not after the fact. So in essence people are being taught that experience trumps knowledge of God’s Word. This fits so with the generation of today too with a “just go get an anointing from some service” approach to knowing God. What a straw man argument straight form the pit of hell to get you to reject the Word so you will submit to what ever comes along. And after you’ve submitted and bound by it it’s so much harder to break free from the lies then to ever not go there in the first place. Believers are to server God with all their “heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” Your mind is part of your service to God and it is to be used by being renewed by the Word. Neither is the Word dead but it is alive and powerful. If it is dead then you must not be satisfied with God and His provision. You are not dead and religious to use the Word to test things, you aren’t an old wine skin, and you are religious all ways limiting God. Rather you are sticking to what is from God and not adding to it falsely.

  104. Kyle,

    An M.Div is a minimal requirement to teach theology in any accredited evangelical university (and most colleges). I am merely pointing out that Allen Hood is the only leader on IHOPU’s leadership list on their webpage who has one. Other training is fine. One of the leaders has a Ph.D. Great. But, it is not in divinity/theology. Perhaps he is not a lecturer but an administrator.

    Allen Hood says that IHOPU students learn to “Prophecy thru a camera” that is a direct quote.

    Further direct quotes which show that I am not resorting to spin doctor tactics:

    Jono Hall of IHOPU leadership says, “Media Messengers…have the skill to form, fashion, and produce media content that is anointed to speak the word of the Lord to this generation.”

    Misty Edwards of IHOPU-KC leadership says in reference to IHOPU students, “In the context of the place of prayer I believe the Lord is gonna anoint these end time vessels.”

    Are you saying that the media students are not anointed Kyle? I wonder if your leaders would agree with you about that?

    Mike Bickle said that he is tasked with changing the face of Christianity in one generation. He is your Chancellor and therefore speaks for the ‘university’. “This change (referring to the face of Christianity) will take place–not in a month or a year or a few years–but in one generation. That night in Cairo I had the sense that I was being invited to be a part of this.” Mike Bickle, Growing in the Prophetic, pg. 30.

    Finally,

    I will not answer you again. You have called me a liar and accused me of slander. I used no such pejoratives on my blog post or against you sir. Our conversation is over now. Furthermore, you will be banned from this blog if you continue to levy unfounded, heinous, and unbalanced accusations or resort to name calling again.

  105. >Allen Hood says that IHOPU students learn to “Prophecy thru a camera”

    I’ve known charismatic musicians that thought that one could prophecy through a drum. I’m still waiting for the interpetation; it sounded like a clanging cymbal to me.

    -Bill

  106. Diane S.

    Kyle,

    I am no expert on IHOP, nor do I have any expertise on the questions you have raised. I AM someone who spent a lot of time in a church (Vineyard) where IHOP was revered, and many leaders and members visited on a regular basis, as well as taught curriculum from it. One of my best friends at the time (And also the Women’s Ministry Director of my church) was the leader of a local House of Prayer, modeled after IHOP. That was all she could talk about, so I did learn quite a bit from her.

    I too, wanted to be a part of “Changing the Face of Christianity”, and the “End Time Warriors – The Special Ones” – whatever that entailed. What I ended up finding instead was major disillusionment. Prophecies that were never fullfilled (And of course, were shoved under the rug instead of being addressed), breakthroughs that were always just around the corner, but never came to pass, claims of healing that turned out to be false, leaders who instead of being led by the Spirit were controlling, manipulative, insecure, greedy, and downright dishonest. Everything that happened had to have a positive spin put on it to save face, and the truth was never told. Not just that, but they were completely clueless and blind to the fact that they had these issues that everyone else could see but them. Of course, only the “Inner Circle” saw these things…they were not evident to the rest.

    In my own personal time with God, I daily worked at practicing contemplation/silence. I thought this was the answer I had been searching for, that this was the key to spiritual growth, and communion with God. I got to the point where I got really good at it, and could “center” almost immediately, wherever I happened to be geographically. Seeking God was hard work, and started to resemble the charateristics of adolescent infatuation more than true love.

    My ephiphany was gradual…it took me almost 10 years to come to this point. I realized that much of what I was being taught was an outright sham, definitely NOT Biblical. When you get into the Word, you really discover just how simple it really is, which amazed me! My attempts to draw near to God were hoop-jumping, rather than resting in the finished work of Christ. I had traded one type of legalism for another.

    I remember very vividly having a heart to heart talk with God when I realized these things. I repented of everything I had been involved in. Through the blood of Jesus, I already HAD intimacy with Him!!! This is nothing I had to work to get, it was already in place! For the first time in YEARS, the peace of God flooded my heart! There was no more striving, working, pushing hard to be passionate and to attempt to get intimate with God. I truly rested in what Christ had already done for me. There was nothing more I needed to do.

    I am telling you this because I really believe that you love God, and are seeking truth. I do believe that with time, you will begin to see things that you cannot see now. I really DO care, and am praying for you!

  107. desean jones

    Gary D.
    I agree.

  108. sadparent

    This thread is active tonight and I have an urgent prayer request.

    I’m an occupational health nurse and a 26 year old man just came into my office in tears. Long story short, he is borderline suicidal – allowed me to pray for him and said he “needs to come back to where he was” when he was a Christian several years ago. His father is dead from suicide and this young man is an ex-convict who has lost his young son.

    PLEASE pray for Blaine that God would give him that peace that passes understanding. Please just take a second to lift a short prayer for him.

  109. SP,

    Praying. Had a conversation Tuesday afternoon with a colleague about how God can really save people when they are at this point of desperation – and how hard it is to reach people who are not.

    Lord Jesus, just as your Holy Spirit has brought conviction to this man, complete your work and bring him ino the full knowledge of you, a place of repentance and cleansing, that he may walk after you from this day on. Amen.

  110. Annunk

    Gary,
    You said: There is also an aspect to today’s young Christians that didn’t exist when I was a young believer. It used to be you where taught the Word to be able to TRY things. Now youth are told that knowing the Word is just head knowledge that doesn’t do anything for you. What you really need is the power of God to make a difference. Never mind that it takes the Word.]

    I became a believer in 1981 in a Word Faith church. It was good in one way – that I learned a TON of scripture. Heard it, read it, sang it. I learned it big time. But it was also bad in a way – instead of learning a passage and applying it to OUR own personal lives, we were taught to take a passage of scripture and “use” it – ‘speak it over this, or speak it over that’ – almost like an incantation – “because GOD CANNOT LIE. HIS word MUST do what it says!” I knew it wasn’t supposed to be used that way, but being a new Christian, I really wasn’t sure.

    I’d anoint doors, windows, my fridge, my toaster! anywhere I thought Satan might be getting into my home! never realizing it wasn’t my house he was interested in.. ..but the IHOP way is worse. Much worse.

    As a child, I was brought up in a Christian home and as an adult, I was able to recognize something wasn’t quite ‘right’ with Word Faith. These kids in IHOP aren’t recognizing anything. They’re just drinking it right in. Minds, hearts and lives are being ruined and they don’t even realize it.

  111. Confirmed.

    IHOP University has NOT specifically been registered or exempted with the State of Missouri. As I understand it, FSM is one of the “colleges” of IHOPU.

    February 22,2010 by e-mail

    Dear Mr. Fawcett:

    Your request for information has been forwarded to me for response. I am happy to provide you with the following information.

    The Department of Higher Education exempted the Forerunner School of Ministry, which is owned and operated by the International House of Prayer, in May of 2008. This organization was exempted as a school that is owned, controlled and operated by a bona fide religious denomination or organization and that grants no certificates or degrees except for those that are religiously designated. As such, and as an institution that is not accredited by a recognized accrediting body, the department would not expect credits or degrees from this institution to be accepted by higher education institutions or employers that require attendance at an accredited institution of higher education. The department does not consider this institution to be a part of the recognized higher education community in Missouri.

    I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to contact us if you have additional questions.

    —————————————————————–
    Leroy Wade
    Assistant Commissioner
    Financial Assistance, Outreach, and Proprietary Certification
    Missouri Department of Higher Education
    3515 Amazonas Drive
    Jefferson City, MO 65109
    E-mail: Leroy.Wade@dhe.mo.gov
    Web Site: http://www.dhe.mo.gov
    Telephone: 573-751-2361
    Fax: 573-751-6635

  112. Well, I hope this does not upset Kyle too much. But I much prefer to deal in truth, as opposed to opinion or feeling. Here we go.

    From: Fawcett, William
    Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010
    To: Wade, Leroy
    Subject: RE: Post-Secondary school inquiry

    Am I to assume that IHOP University is also exempted?

    From: Wade, Leroy
    Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010
    To: Fawcett, William
    Subject: RE: Post-Secondary school inquiry

    The International House of Prayer has no status with this agency (exempt or otherwise) independent of its ownership of Forerunner School of Ministry. Anything outside of that context would appear to constitute a violation of Missouri statutes.

    —————————————————————–
    Leroy Wade
    Assistant Commissioner
    Financial Assistance, Outreach, and Proprietary Certification
    Missouri Department of Higher Education
    3515 Amazonas Drive
    Jefferson City, MO 65109

  113. Good deal Bill! thanks for solving the confusion!

  114. Annunk

    I can hear the “yeah but”(s) already…

    What Kyle and the rest of the IHOPers are not understanding is that no one’s trying to “win” an argument about IHOP. That is, unless, ‘winning’ people out of IHOP occurs – then I guess they’d be right. I’ll fight that argument any day.

  115. I think that Kyle has moved to on to calmer waters ya’ll.

  116. Cher

    I have spent many, many days in the Prayer Room and most of the students/interns in the Prayer Room were engaged in prayer and/or Bible reading. There were some sitting at tables studying on their laptops. I have never seen anyone with their feet propped up, or blogging on their computer. I have been reading this blog and many others and am praying about any lies I taken as truth. I am searching for the Truth. I have several very dear friends that are on staff or students at IHOP. All of them are there as a direct or indirect result of my telling them about it years ago. So you see the weight I am carrying….

  117. Tim H

    So you see the weight I am carrying….

    Is this about you…

  118. Cher

    Yes, Tim. Right now it is about me until I discover the truth. Then it is about telling my friends. But as always, it is about Jesus. I regret making this post. I was asking for prayer not sarcasm.

  119. jarrod

    I will pray for you Cher.

  120. Cher,
    Don’t regret making this post. Tim’s comment may have been taken as sarcastic, but that may not have been his intent. It so easily becomes about “us” which is a huge problem, that we all experience. Our eyes on “how will this impact me” will further hinder seeing the truth.

    I have often times believed that a huge hindrance to Mike being able to see the error in what he’s doing and teaching is because so many people have been impacted. And his teachings have influenced many for YEARS. The error present at IHOP is not difficult to see, if you want to.

    Your seeing the truth will be most helpful to others you have influenced. If they respected you enough to follow you there, they may respect you enough to listen to your concerns about getting out.

    So, Cher, I am praying for you. It’s been many years since I’ve been where you are. May I recommend that you stop listening to any more teaching, from this pulpit, and just seek the Lord through His written word, alone. No man needs to explain to you what it actually says. The Holy Spirit can do this, just fine.

  121. Tim H

    Cher,

    I was not being sarcastic, I apologize that it came across that way. And after re-reading your post, see how easily it is to mis-interpret someones writing and/or teaching. Good example of the things we are talking about….

    I apologize and understand that sentence in “context” to the rest of the post…

    In humility I apologize and I will be praying for you…

  122. Julie,
    You said: “I have often times believed that a huge hindrance to Mike being able to see the error in what he’s doing and teaching is because so many people have been impacted.”

    This is just my opinion, but after all my research I personally believe that Mike knows EXACTLY what he is doing and has for many years. I no long believe he’s deceived. Many people have spoken to him over the years and he has refused correction.

  123. Truthspeaker,

    I am slowly coming to the same conclusion. Not to contradict what I said earlier – it is hard to accept that what you say is true.

  124. Julie,
    I didn’t always think this either, but the question begs to be asked: “Is Mike a deceived deceiver or is he just a deceiver?”

    I recently listened to Ernie Gruen’s message “Do we just smile and say nothing”? On that tape (which is from 20 years ago) he tells the story of how when Mike first came to KC he told everyone that he submitted to Ernie, but the first time Ernie corrected him (for teaching false doctrine) Mike turned on him and refused to repent or change his teachings. My research partner recently spoke to Mrs. Gruen who said that when all this went down with Mike, around the time the Gruen report came out, that it felt like the devil himself attacked them. I happen to know from a first hand source that the Vineyard church in Anaheim was led in a “prayer” by Jack Deere, to ask God to send a curse on Ernie Gruen. It is suspected that they did the same thing at IHOP, but we have no proof. Soooooo is this the kind of thing Christians do to other Christians? What happened to turn the other cheek, repentance or reconcilliation?

    I suggest to anyone who wants to know about the history of IHOP that they take the time to listen to the 12 hours of Mike Bickle’s talk called “Encountering Jesus”….. here’s the link to the free mp3s: http://www.archive.org/details/EncounteringJesus

    You will learn how IHOP was based on the prophecies of the shaman Bob Jones. I need to warn you that it’s revisionist history and Mike glosses over a lot of the truth and important details.

    Also, if anyone wants a copy of Ernie Gruen’s message “Do we just smile and do nothing” just email me at wolvesamongthesheep@yahoo.com and I will send you the mp3.
    Joanne

  125. Truthspeaker,
    Thank you for the links – I will listen. I am especially looking for the revisions that have been made in the histories. Back at KCF, the stories were repeated, almost annually, of how the church came to be. I wonder what parts of that history are missing today?

  126. Gary D.

    Ephesians 5:
    13 But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light.

    John 3:
    19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

    This is why I can’t agree with IHOP and what’s it is doing. If it is so right, then there would be no need to cover, hide, revise, or not make open its past, present or future. God does not operate like that, to hide and cover up. Sin causes that as evidenced with Adam and Eve in the garden when they sinned and realized they were naked and hid from God. When your works are done in God, there is no need to hide. So hiding history by revising the past is not right. Hiding the so called prophet who supposedly wrote the Blueprint Prophecy that IHOP is based upon is not of God either. Hiding information in it by revising it continually is wrong. That just seems very simple to me. Hiding information like that is more the work of cults and other organizations that practice deceit and not truth. Just how eye opening seeing this simple truth could be to so many people.

  127. Annunk

    I am in the process of listening to TruthSpeaker’s Ernie Gruen segment and I absolutely agree with TS.

    Mike Bickle, who I used to believe was himself deceived and therefore, ‘an innocent’ in all this, is actually very much aware of exactly what he is doing.

    Before understanding exactly what he was doing, I was praying for him, asking God to open his eyes to the deception in which he’s involved. Now, however, I am praying the Lord will expose him to the world and allow IHOP to be completely crushed.

  128. Cher

    Thanks so much Jarrod, Julie and Tim. I appreciate your kindness and prayers.

  129. Cher,
    If you have a desire to visit, you can contact me at cheaperdozen@gmail.com. Take care.

  130. Annunk

    I highly recommend everyone listen to the Ernie Gruen recording – up above on TruthSpeaker’s 5:03 post on 2/24.

    In addition to that: the reason that I cannot, and will not ever support IHOP is due to the family units which have been absolutely destroyed due to Mike Bickle and Allen Hood’s influence.

    The young people who attend are given the pseudo mantle of really ‘being’ forerunners – out and ahead of the entire rest of Christianity. Despite the fact that they are NO LONGER practicing Christianity at all, but rather practicing occult with each Contemplative prayer they pray.

  131. Tiffany

    Personally I believe that anyone who can speak against an organization who prays to God 24/7, must have some sort of pride issues. I went to IHOP for a 6 month season and I believe that you cannot judge a vision by one circumstance. One person or one family does not make the vision of IHOP a cult. Only God can judge the hearts of men and women. You judging and speaking ill against REAL people who love Jesus is wrong…. as you judge you so will be judged. Mercy triumphs over judgment.. if you have no mercy you will receive none…. I say leave the judgement of Mike Bickle and Allen Hood into the hands of God…. Slander and Gossip is not the way to justify anything. Nothing anyone says can make them right or wrong. You are simply trying to justify your own feelings by getting people to feel the same way you do.

  132. Tiffany, The reason we speak out against IHOP is because he teaches a form of catholic mysticism that is NOT found in scripture. I have listened to many of his teachings and on his Omega series tapes he says that a forerunner is one who must be a good Berean and search the scriptures to see if what is being taught is scripturally correct. Well, taking Mike’s own advice you will find that what he teaches is NOT biblical Christianity.

    You are correct that God will judge him. But we have every right to judge what they say and to know if it lines up with scripture. Don’t forget that Paul named names and judged false teachers also! That is not slander or gossip…. it is a righteous judgment.

  133. annunk

    Tiffany, why would anyone waste their time doing ‘slander & gossip’ about Mike Bickle and IHOP? This isn’t People Mag here..

    What that sister (above) said was right on – Paul named names and warned the body about false teachers. Those of us who speak out against the false teachings – about the occultic practices (like Contemplative prayer) that Mike Bickle teaches are not doing it out of hatred. Quite the opposite.

    It is my personal love for the rest of the body of Christ that I have a calling on my life to warn other people and I am not alone.

    “One person or one family does not make the vision of IHOP a cult.” You’re absolutely right, Tiffany. It has actually been multiple visions, multiple teachings/beliefs and multiple families which have been affected, which are trying to warn others that IHOP is absolutely a cult. That the jesus speaking to you when you practice Contemplative prayer is actually a familiar spirit – one of which Paul warned us.

  134. Tiffany,

    I am a moderator of this blog. First of all: Everyone “has some sort of pride issues.” That describes humanity.

    Kudos for noticing that.

    However, our judgment is not condemnatory. Critique is not condemnation.

    In I Corinthians 2:15 Paul says, “But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.” Judging is not a sin; judging is a characteristic of being a spiritual person! Satan has been lying to us, hoping that we will NOT judge, because he knows that the right kind of judgment PLEASES God and betters our lives and Christian service.

    Someone says, “But should we judge PEOPLE?” Yes, we certainly should. Paul actually REBUKES the Corinthians for NOT judging: “Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?” (I Cor. 6:1-5) If judging is wrong, then Paul needs to confess and repent for misleading these Christians! He clearly told them to JUDGE PEOPLE.

    Accusing us of slander and gossip is much easier than dissecting our points one by one and “judging” if we just may have some accurate points.

    Finally, you have judged us in the judgmental accusation you just levied. If you have a problem with the post or any of the replies address them particularly. Otherwise, please refrain from making blanket statements. I will delete any further comments from you which carry unspecific, pejorative remarks.

  135. David

    When a “movement” or a “way” keeps certain portions of it’s heritage out of the light, one would wonder why, especially when Christianity is bathed in the light of God’s Truth and in the light of Jesus. Why manipulate and hides portions of your blueprint if you know the Lord crafted it for you? Perhaps because there are strong indications that He did not.

  136. David

    “Here, I’m not going to pay my tuition with real money, but here, it’s a money anointing” – Now that would be a way to pay for your fees.

  137. David,

    You make them sound like Mormons!

  138. Annunk

    No, no, I disagree. Mormons are exceptionally kind and loving people. They try very hard to climb the “Ladder of Progression” so that they can one day be gods themselves.

    IHOP, on the other hand, has no ladder to climb. They simply step on top of and/or over those whom they’ve wounded.

    I prefer witnessing to Mormons. 😉

  139. das1217

    IHOP-U is expanding.

    “The Forerunner School of Supernatural Ministry is an affiliate of IHOP University at the IHOP-KC Missions Base. Credits earned through completion of the FSSM at IHOP-NW apply towards the diploma and certification programs at IHOP-KC’s Forerunner School of Ministry.*”

    Here’s the link.
    http://internationalhouseofprayernorthwest.org/lang/en/internship/fssm/

    All I can say is geeeesshhhh!

  140. annunk

    DAS1217,
    Go up and read Beyondgrace Feb 22 posts. Here’s part:

    From: Wade, Leroy
    Sent: Monday, February 22, 2010
    To: Fawcett, William
    Subject: RE: Post-Secondary school inquiry

    The International House of Prayer has no status with this agency (exempt or otherwise) independent of its ownership of Forerunner School of Ministry. Anything outside of that context would appear to constitute a violation of Missouri statutes.

    —————————————————————–
    Leroy Wade
    Assistant Commissione
    —————————————————-
    There’s more up above but there we have official verbage from the Asst Commisione of MO saying that IHOP, if they’re going by ye old University title, are appearing to break the law. And that’s just state of Missouri law..

  141. observant

    It would be prudent for IHOP to warn students of the possiblity of the “kindling” of epileptic seizures through advanced meditation techniques – i. e. “contemplative prayer” that is further exacerbated by sleep deprivation, even if they have no prior evidence of epilepsy.
    x
    Quote:

    “Unusual perceptions have always been the subject of intense interest desire and speculation. In early history it was customary to interpret and seek such occurrences within a religious context. Even the gross disorders of epilepsy and psychosis were thought to be cases of supernatural possession, blessed or otherwise. Strange experiences were valued, and the use of fasting, drugs, ceremony, and dancing to induce a strange experience was common in cultures ranging from the Amazon Indians to ascetic European monks”

    http://www.deikman.com/implications.html

    Quote:

    “The first hypothesis, that mystic experience is achieved through the use of the technique of contemplative meditation, was derived from noting the close resemblance between descriptions of mystic exercises from widely varying cultures and times for example, the instructions of Walter Hilton (9), a fourteenth-century Roman Catholic canon, are similar to those of Pantanjali (20), a Yogi from about the sixth century. Both described a procedure of concentration without thinking (contemplative meditation), for achieving a mystic state. Similar instructions are given by other authors of widely disparate backgrounds.”

    http://www.deikman.com/experimental.html

  142. observant

    (Sorry to have to split this post into parts. WordPress will not allow many links.)

    Quote:
    “The author, a medical writer with no history of drug or alcohol abuse, no
    family or personal history of epileptic symptoms, and no sectarian
    affiliation, practices self-hypnosis or meditation to relax, to generate
    new ideas for his writing by free association, to dissipate muscle tension
    headaches, and to divert attention during minor surgical or dental
    procedures. He learned to meditate by imaging mental images while in
    graduate school, then later, after attending a course on Buddhist
    meditation, learned how to meditate without mental imagery. During this
    class, the author began to see sensations of light generated by internal
    processes, called ‘phosphenes’.”

    “The phosphene sequence induced by meditation also appears spontaneously
    when the author is lying in bed and waiting to fall asleep, in which case
    no induction behaviors are needed; the only prerequisite is keeping the
    eyes fixed straight forward and keeping the attention focused on the center
    of the visual field.”

    http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/ejvs0803/ejvs0803a.txt

  143. observant

    To continue..

    Quote:

    “The presentation describes how phosphene images associated with states of calm concentration evolve into a different set of images associated with paroxysmal experience. These paroxysmal phosphenes match descriptions in yoga meditation texts of the light images that signify the final stages of kundalini rising and then its culmination in blissful consciousness of union with the cosmic light..

  144. observant

    Quote:

    “Proponents of meditation tout its ability to reduce seizures in people with epilepsy, while those more skeptical contend that regular practice of meditation could in fact induce epileptic seizures.”

    http://www.epilepsy.com/articles/ar_1150815334

  145. observant

    Studies on meditators have reported various adverse outcomes and one such study has indeed revealed significantly higher incidence of complex partial epileptic-like signs and experiences in a large number (n = 221) of meditators compared to non-meditators (controls n = 860), the researcher claiming “cognitive kindling” by meditation to be the underlying basis. These studies thus do highlight and underscore the strong influence of meditation in increasing susceptibility to epilepsy.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16434149?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=3&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

  146. observant

    The medical writer, the author of the article at this link:

    http://www.ejvs.laurasianacademy.com/ejvs0803/ejvs0803a.txt

    is comparing his personal experience with those described in the Rig Veda. This is a lengthy article, but toward the end, he compares the terminology and descriptions of the mystical experience of varying traditions, including those of Ignatius Loyola and John of the Cross.

    The signs of a Kundalini experience:

    This author states that many people do not know what is happening to them and that “Over and again we hear stories of frustrating, sometimes desperate visits to doctors, healers, counselors, etc. who neither understood nor were able to help with the myriad pains and problems catalyzed by raging Kundalini. ”

    Signs of Kundalini rising:

    Muscle twitches, cramps or spasms.

    Energy rushes or immense electricity circulating the body

    Itching, vibrating, prickling, tingling, stinging or crawling sensations

    Intense heat or cold

    Involuntary bodily movements (occur more often during meditation, rest or sleep): jerking, tremors, shaking; feeling an inner force pushing one into postures or moving one’s body in unusual ways. (May be misdiagnosed as epilepsy, restless legs syndrome (RLS), or PLMD.)

    Alterations in eating and sleeping patterns

    Episodes of extreme hyperactivity or, conversely, overwhelming fatigue (some CFS victims are experiencing Kundalini awakening)

    Intensified or diminished sexual desires

    Headaches, pressures within the skull

    Racing heartbeat, pains in the chest

    Digestive system problems

    Numbness or pain in the limbs (particularly the left foot and leg)

    Pains and blockages anywhere; often in the back and neck (Many cases of FMS are Kundalini-related.)

    Emotional outbursts; rapid mood shifts; seemingly unprovoked or excessive episodes of grief, fear, rage, depression

    Spontaneous vocalizations (including laughing and weeping) — are as unintentional and uncontrollable as hiccoughs

    Hearing an inner sound or sounds, classically described as a flute, drum, waterfall, birds singing, bees buzzing but which may also sound like roaring, whooshing, or thunderous noises or like ringing in the ears.

    Mental confusion; difficulty concentrating

    Altered states of consciousness: heightened awareness; spontaneous trance states; mystical experiences (if the individual’s prior belief system is too threatened by these, they can lead to bouts of psychosis or self-grandiosity)

    Heat, strange activity, and/or blissful sensations in the head, particularly in the crown area.

    Ecstasy, bliss and intervals of tremendous joy, love, peace and compassion

    Psychic experiences: extrasensory perception; out-of-body experiences; pastlife memories; astral travel; direct awareness of auras and chakras; contact with spirit guides through inner voices, dreams or visions; healing powers

    Increased creativity: new interests in self-expression and spiritual communication through music, art, poetry, etc.

    Intensified understanding and sensitivity: insight into one’s own essence; deeper understanding of spiritual truths; exquisite awareness of one’s environment (including “vibes” from others)

    Enlightenment experiences: direct Knowing of a more expansive reality; transcendent awareness

    http://www.elcollie.com/st/symptoms.html

    Strangely, he goes on to say, “Some people have told us they find the concept of “Kundalini” foreign and prefer to simply call this their “awakening,” ”

    Compare to Mike Bickle’s description of the prophetic spirit (from ONETHING CONFERENCE 2009
    WHAT THE SPIRIT IS SAYING TO THE CHURCH Page 5
    Releasing the Supernatural Ministry of the Holy Spirit):

    The prophetic spirit is manifested in us in dramatic ways as well as subtle ways.

    The dramatic ways include dreams, visions, angelic encounters, hearing the audible voice of God, etc.

    The subtle ways are the most common. They include receiving faint impressions such as:

    1) Mental pictures: reoccurring impressions or pictures in our minds that indicate how the Lord
    will touch others by imparting His grace or healing to them.

    2) Emotional stirrings: feeling various emotions like joy, sadness, or a burden for a person or
    a ministry as an indicator that the Lord will touch others related to that emotion or burden.

    3) Sympathetic pains: feeling pain in a specific part of our bodies as an indicator that the Lord
    desires to heal the disease or pain that others are feeling in that particular part of their body.

    4) Physical sensations: experiencing the Spirit’s presence (heat, energy, fire, wind, etc.) in a
    specific area of our bodies or through our five senses (e.g. smell or taste) as an indicator that
    the Lord desires to touch others in a way related to the physical sensation that we received.

  147. annunk

    I pondered all that and am still just amazed that any, any, anyone could swallow that mess and say, “Oh yeah. That’s definitely God.”

    No wonder the IHOPpers doing Contemplative start butting heads with their friends and family who disagree with them doing it. The interns are virtually playing with demon entities.

    Oh and Mike Bickle..notice how he’s describing what you’re going to “feel”? Bickle missed it. What the Spirit is ‘really’ trying to say to the church is ‘look up!’ Because the great falling away is happening! And IHOP is right in the middle of it courtesy of Mike Bickle.

  148. Jonathan Ramos

    Hey ya’ll, I know4 more people who have a masters in Divinity at IHOPU. FYI

  149. annunk

    That’s a copy good buddy.

    Yes, go to IHOP and you can be a bona fide expert in false religion i.e. IHOP’s Contemplative prayer, Joel’s Army, Bridal paradigm and the list goes on and on and on! Yee-HA!

    And WHO’s gonna hire you, put you in charge of leading others, give you a pay check, know that you know what you’re doing? No one! Except maybe another marvelous House of “Prayer”……

  150. Jonathan,

    If you can provide me with evidence of that fact then I will definitely change my post. This article is nearly a year old so perhaps some faculty changes for the better have happened.

  151. Melanie

    IHOPU actually had the chance to become accredited through a partnership with ORU. It would mean that IHOPU students would complete their education and then have to transfer to ORU and do two semesters of the regular Gen-ed classes.

    This deal fell thru because IHOPU would have had to get rid of all of it’s faculty because they do not have degrees in what they are teaching. Just like Paul in the Bible, the only knowledge they have in their chosen profession was acquired through the Holy Spirit. By today’s standards, Paul wouldn’t be given the right to teach which is of course absurd because of the way Paul changed the face of the church.

  152. Annunk

    Now I can say that I wholeheartedly approve of an ORU stipulation for being a branch off of their accredited university! For IHOP to change out the teaching staff, it would at least give a little credence to saying, “I graduated from IHOPU..”…if you could say, “My teachers there have real degrees too! They had to pass accredited state teaching exams and the whole nine yards.”

    Oh, and regarding the apostle Paul not being allowed to teach if here were walking the earth today? Probably a true statement – except that he would probably have already gotten a degree, a masters and a doctorate and would have been doing a whole, whole lot of Berean-type warnings to the church today telling people ‘Beware! Beware! Beware!’

    But I digress..

    Great thread, TS. VERY eye-opening.

  153. Annunk

    Uh oh.
    I thought I was on Truthspeaker’s blog by mistake, Greycoats. My bad.

    Allow me to make my own correction: GREAT THREAD, Greycoats 🙂

  154. Melanie,
    You said: “By today’s standards, Paul wouldn’t be given the right to teach which is of course absurd because of the way Paul changed the face of the church.”

    This is an absurd statement. First of all Paul was more qualified to teach than any of the other apostles and even Jesus himself (as far as education was concerned)!

    Saul was taught at the feet of the distinguished Jewish teacher Gamaliel (Acts 22: 3).

    The following is from wiki:
    ” Rabbi Gamaliel I, was a leading authority in the Sanhedrin in the mid first century.

    In the Christian tradition, Gamaliel is celebrated as a Pharisee doctor of Jewish Law, who was the teacher of Paul the Apostle[4];

    In the Talmud, seven leaders of Hillel’s school of thought, of which Gamaliel was the first, are given the title Rabban[6] (master), a rabbinic title given to the Head of the Sanhedrin; although it is not doubted that Gamaliel genuinely held a senior position, whether he actually held this highest position has been disputed.[2] Gamaliel holds a reputation in the Mishnah for being one of the greatest teachers in all the annals of Judaism”

    So, we see that Paul’s teacher was one of the greatest teachers in Juidiasm. Paul himself was a Pharisee (See Acts 23:6 and Phil 3: 4-6).

    I would say that Paul was WELL qualified to teach. Where you are confused Melanie, is that today we have certain qualifications for receiving a diploma from an acreditied UNIVERSITY. Paul was NOT giving out university degrees!! Under those standards one must HAVE a degree to teach others who wish to receive them! If you want to find out how valid a degree is from IHOP U try to use it to transfer to any other university in the United States and they will laugh at you.

  155. Annunk

    Melanie,
    Thanks for posting that info re: IHOP and ORU. How’d you find that out? Just curious. I found it very, VERY interesting. . .

  156. Melanie,

    Paul had the highest credentials for teaching Judaism allowed. And, from the Lukan account he was no slouch when it came to classic literature/philosophical traditions either.

  157. Annunk

    Hey guys,
    It’s sounding like ‘beat up on Melanie’ here.
    Semantics. Just re-read what she wrote. She was not plugging for ‘the HOP’ at all.

    Mel, where’d you hear that about IHOP and ORU? I am totally intrigued.

  158. Sean Livingston

    The Point of IHOPU is not to get a formal degree, but to raise up Kingdom minded disciples of Jesus who develop strong, intimate relationships with Him that provide the basis for furthering the Kingdom. That’s all they are concerned about; and if they must do it in a manner that does not allow for them to become accredited, that is perfectly fine. They are not seeking to be accredited at all.

    The legitimacy of the degree in the eyes accepted academia is really unimportant to them. If you are deciding to attend this university, you must be doing so with the understanding that you are not attending IHOPU for the same reasons as you would a regular college or university, unless God has specifically sent you to a regular school for the purpose of His Kingdom.

    IHOPU is not above getting accredited, as someone said much earlier in these postings. There is no point in their eyes to compromise the purpose for the school just for a meaningless accreditation which absolutely has no impact or necessary relevance for the success of God’s kingdom. Many a Christian Seminary and University suffer because they must meet the standards of accreditation within their school, policies, and curriculum.

    Having attended seminary–and I am not saying it is safe to assume this about every seminary in the States–it is rare to find a school that will publicly embrace training young adults to pursue an intimate relationship with God and to pursue a knowledge of the realm of the Kingdom which is not taught in, I would say, 90 percent of Christian accredited universities. Reason being, most of the population does not have a reference point to approve the authenticity of spiritual realities. IHOPU will bring students face to face with these realities that are not taught by human wisdom, but those things taught by the Spirit.

    As long as IHOPU continues to teach things that cannot be understood by the Natural man, as Paul describes in 1 Cor. 2:10-16, they will not get accredited. And I say Praise God for that; such things are far more important than accreditation.

  159. Sean,

    You mentioned “intimate relationship” with God or Jesus a few times. I’m FULLY aware that Allen Hood has made Brennan Manning’s book, The Relentless Tenderness of Jesus, required reading and that the book discusses a sexual-type bond/relationship between Jesus and believers… NO WAY is “that kind” of ‘tenderness scriptural. That’s perverted doctrine, Sean. Totally perverted. And that kind of teaching goes right along with the two “prophets” that Mike Bickle believes hung the proverbial moon — Bob Jones & Paul Cain. (But of course the newbies at IHOP don’t know about Bob and Paul’s off color history..and that’s because they weren’t around when both of them got kicked out of IHOP by Bickle for their sexual misdeeds… and on that note, Mike Bickle knew about both of them doing their dirties but ignored it until a “generous sponsor” made it known that all $$ funding would be withdrawn if the two “prophets” were allowed to stay…)

    That Bridal Paradigm? That’s a total perversion.

    If IHOP isn’t concerned about being an “accredited” university then explain to me WHY did IHOP ever add the “U”? Also, back several years, WHY did Mike Bickle attempt to become accredited under ORU?

    NOTE:
    (ORU turned the request down. Any why? Because the teachers at IHOP lacked degrees — which is what it takes for a “university” to become accredited. You can have all the courses lined up like ducks in a row, but if the teachers lack the skills, the accreditation is withheld.)

    And praise God for that. Lastly: “Natural” man is not to have capitalization unless in the title of a book or other document. (I get that from my accredited English exam A+ – OSU class of 80.)

  160. Annuk: OSU in 80? I was there in 88 – but I digress. Where did you learn that IHOP, or whatever they were prior to IHOP, were in danger of forfeiting generous donations should they retain these questionable men in the prophetic? Is this verifiable? Not that I doubt you – so many things have occurred behind the scenes through the years that this is entirely plausible. I had never known this relevant fact.

    Great points!

  161. I meant to say, I was at OSU in 78. Oops.

  162. Sean,

    Your wrote:

    As long as IHOPU continues to teach things that cannot be understood by the Natural man, as Paul describes in 1 Cor. 2:10-16, they will not get accredited. And I say Praise God for that; such things are far more important than accreditation.

    You do realize that all true born again believers have the Holy Spirit indwelling and are therefore not a “natural man” don’t you? With this in mind, then you are saying that only IHOP has the Holy Spirit and these other schools do not. While I may agree that some seminaries may not, I won’t say they ALL don’t.

    Please clarify what you mean, if I’ve misunderstood.

  163. Nathaniel Ruland

    Wow this thread is the gift that keeps on giving. Same argument different day…yes, yes, IHOPU is too “spiritual” to care about accreditation. Everyone else is too concerned with ahhhhhhhh….whatever…I just can’t do it anymore….I’m really burnt on dealing with you spunky young neo-Montanists. You’re the only ones truly sold out to God…right we all get it.

  164. Julie,
    I’m away from my office for a week due to a long, much overdue vacation. Allow me some time after returning to dig up the exact “who said what” info and I’ll gladly get back with you on your questions. Deal?

  165. annunk:

    I’m very interested in this as well!

  166. Julie,
    I have searched and searched and cannot find the documentation anywhere re: IHOP being in danger of forfeiting generous $$ donations if Mike Bickle kept Paul Cain and Bob Jones on.
    I can only tell you that on Monday I was speaking to a close friend saying, “I’ve been looking everywhere for some documentation I’ve got on IHOP regarding the financial reasons that were really the cause of Paul Cain and Bob Jones’ departures from there…”, …and without even finishing my sentence the person chimed in, “Oh I remember that. It said something about a “substantial donor” who was going to quit sending in money if Mike Bickle let BOB JONES stay on since BOB had basically been caught with his pants down if you’ll pardon the pun.”

    So I/we know we saw it. But I can’t find it. And it was Bob, not Paul that the $$ situation was in regards to. But I can’t find the documentation. So that makes it hearsay.

    That being said, I need to do the right thing and give the blog author the OK to retract my statement in lieu of the lack of said documents. I’m not a gossip and I don’t want to go down on the record of just spreading innuendo when I’ve nothing with which to back up my story.

    Blog author – you have my permission to do whatever you’d care to with my statement. Leave my retraction in, take the original statement out, whatever you deem necessary. I’ll keep looking though…

  167. Annunk:

    Thanks for looking and clarifying. It is possible the information used to be available. Some stuff gets “disappeared,” ya know.

  168. jjohnson

    so i would like to know how many of you in this thread actually call yourselves “Christians”? a christian is someone who following Christ. and by following Christ i mean trying to live your life as close to Christ-like as possible. i’m just curious about this because i dont see any fruit of the spirit in this thread. Christians are supposed to argue like children. we are supposed to come together to accomplish the great commission TOGETHER. Read 1 corinthians 1:10! while your at it you might want to read titus 3:9 as well. and take them to heart. i seriously doubt Jesus would be doing what you guys are doing. remember the WWJD bracelets a while back? that wasnt just a fad. that was meant to remind us of exactly what we are supposed to be doing. if your not living, or at least striving to live the way Christ did then your missing the whole point of a deep intimate relationship with Christ.

  169. jjohnson

    Christians aren’t* supposed to argue like children

  170. Jjohnson,
    Are these the same thoughts you’d have toward the apostle Paul when he was warning the brethren about false prophets? He wasn’t known for his touchy-feely approach, was he?.. Jjohnson, if it weren’t for Christ’s love welding up inside of me and others, we’d simply keep our mouths shut and look the other way. J, I don’t want you to get sucked into the deception. Are you hearing what I’m trying to say to you?

    Jjohnson, if you are practicing Contemplative prayer, be it at IHOP or at home in your room, you are practicing eastern mysticism. You are practicing a very real form of an occult practice and IT will CHANGE you.

  171. TimH

    Actually, Jesus himself wasn’t very “prissy” about telling the multitude of Pharisees and the like about what they were doing. Seems he was pretty vocal about it. So I guess we are WWJD when we speak out against those teachings that cannot be supported biblically, in context to what the author, the Holy Spirit, spoke…

    By the way, WWJD do when he returns? I think those who have been teaching falsly will be thrown into the eternal Lake of Fire! Not mine to judge, but He has already. “but Lord, Lord, we prophesied and healed in your name. I know you not” (my paraphrase)

    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

  172. I am so amazed that fellow believers think anyone who disagrees and then dares to share it with others is just being unloving! unchristian! causing divisions in the body! being a trouble maker! It just amazes me.

    Christians, we are the salt of the earth! As a believer, YOU are the salt of the earth. And excuse the poetry, but if the salt has lost its flavor, it ain’t got much in its favor! We’ve got to stand up to be God’s light in this world.

    What good is being a Christian if you’re just like the rest of the world? Oh sure, you don’t swear, get drunk, do drugs and rob banks but everything else? Today, a lot of the body is looking just….like…..them….. So you tell me: Where is being salt in that equation?

    Too many are so worried about “offending” anyone that they’ve stuck their light under a bushel and have become virtually invisible. I can’t speak for others but for me? one day I want to hear God say, “Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Well done.”

  173. Everybody, take out your bibles and turn to the book of Galatians . . . and read the whole thing. I think Paul is a pretty good authority regarding the teaching of a wrong gospel.

  174. hayli dover

    I went to ihopu and it was the best so ya stop bashing:)

  175. hayli,
    I’m not ‘bashing’ just simply pointing out a simple truth. It is somewhat cheesy to use the term ‘university’ if you are in fact not an accredited university. What’s wrong with IHOP-Bible School….oh wait….I know….not as catchy right? Or as cool looking on a t-shirt.

  176. sadparent

    Agreed. Call it a college, or bible school. Why not give that a whirl? It was attempting to become accredited at one point in time via ORU but ORU pulled the plug on it BECAUSE the TEACHERS lacked teaching degrees thus leading toward forwarding the “university’s” accreditation. SO LET’S just call it IHOP college. What’s wrong with that? Plenty of good old fashioned colleges out there. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, we want to call it a university. So fine, bend the rules and call it whatever they want. So what else is new in life???

  177. Ariel

    This is absurd. Why do you care what it’s called? It’s a band of devoted Christians trying to train up your children in the way they should go, unlike most of your “universities” these days. So, they charge you money? Teachers have to make a living too! (And most of it not even from that!) Who are you to judge or even be upset about it? Then don’t go. Out of all the outrageous things that are happening in the earth, this is what we as Christians decide to do? Sit on a website and attack an institution that is going hard after God with all they have? I hope you’re praying 24 hours a day 7 days a week. Like you have a leg to stand on. “Too Spiritual”. That is so sad.
    And yes. I did go to school there. FMA. For one semester. I was pushed deeper into my Christianity. It may not have been my cup of tea to stay there forever. I got what I needed to go on with where God was taking me. All humans have fallen short of the glory, so of course you’re going to run into Christians who do the wrong thing and say the wrong thing that have been to IHOP, go to school at IHOPU, etc. As you would with ANYWHERE. I’m grateful for a place like IHOP and IHOPU who is delving deeper into the word of God and sharing the mysteries that He has unlocked in their hearts with children, teenagers, adults who are searching for more than what they’re getting in “accredited” schools. A group of anointed, prophetic people doing what God has called them to do in prayer, fasting, and reading His word. It isn’t an easy job. It’s a privilege. But it’s not easy. God continues to pour out His blessing on them and WILL continue to because they have a faithful leader in Mike Bickle, whom I know personally, who will never stop running hard after God. “31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and all these things shall be added to you.”
    The biggest goal of the enemy is to divide the Bride. Pit Christians against each other so we fall from the inside out. Unbelievers will never see the Love of God if we attack even our own fellow believers. There are so many better things to put our attention on than slandering somewhere we’ve never been or don’t understand because we aren’t “as spiritual”. Do you think Jesus smiles at these posts? Because I don’t.

  178. Ariel,

    If you’re practicing contemplative prayer, I don’t care how great/scriptural the rest of IHOP teachings are. That “contemplative” practice is TM. TM is an occult practice. Do you think Jesus smiles at that? Because He doesn’t.

  179. FOR THE RECORD: I spoke with “Ariel” who authors the http://www.gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com site and asked her about the post written by Ariel (above). i.e. Did she write that?

    She asked me to let everyone know “Ariel’s”posts on here are NOT from her at all. She is unchanged in her views about IHOP.

  180. Ariel

    You are wrong.
    I don’t really know why you keep talking about “contemplative prayer.” Obviously you don’t even know what it is. If you hear someone from IHOP talking about contemplative prayer, they’re talking about thinking deeper on God and praying into who He is for more revelation of Him.
    What you seem to be stuck on are the MANIFESTATIONS of the Holy Spirit.

    One time when Saul tried to kill David, the presence over David and the prophets was so strong that Saul felt it kilometers away.
    1Sam 19:20-24
    20 So he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing they’re as their leader, the Spirit of God came upon Saul’s men and they also prophesied.
    21 Saul was told about it, and he sent more men, and they prophesied too. Saul sent men a third time, and they also prophesied.
    22 Finally, he himself left for Ramah and went to the great cistern at Secu. And he asked, “Where are Samuel and David?”
    “Over in Naioth at Ramah,” they said.
    23 So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even upon him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. 24He stripped off his robes and also prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay that way all that day and night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

    Revelation 1:17
    17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,[a] “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

    Ezekiel 1:28
    28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord.
    So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.

    I could go on and on with the Bible Verses that talk about people encountering the Lord’s presence and not being able to stand or being “drunk” in the spirit, but it would take too long. So, I’ll leave you with this website which does an even better job. http://peoplegetready.org/holy-spirit/manifestations-spirit-scripture/

    I don’t see your comments backed by anything but opinion, when the word of God says something completely different. If you read your Bible, you’ll find that that “scariness of people shaking” really isn’t that scary. I’d like to see any man try to stand when God is releasing His presence over him or allowing His healing power to come from heaven to heal someone of their afflictions.

    You don’t understand what you don’t know. But it is available to you and living without the Holy Spirit is a sad way to live.

  181. Well Ariel, why don’t you browse the dreaded IHOP book store there on “campus” and check out Mike Bickle’s posts on Contemplative prayer. They used to be online but they got pulled for some mysterious reason. You’ll have to ask since I don’t have his current list of books — why not ask MIKE BICKLE IN PERSON? He’d be so honored!

    Mike recommended allowing the mind to go into a “mental void” in order for it to be a successful encounter with God… You know, 20 or so minutes of repeating a scriptural phrase or verse to be used as a mantra. All the time allowing your mind to go into an area of “nothingness”. “A mental void” where God can freely communicate with you since you’re not actively thinking, (HIS words, not mine.)

    Then check out all his books recommending Catholic mystics. Hey, here’s a news flash: the bible describes mysticism as something God frowns on. That’s note worthy, nes pas?

    Got a question for you. What’s your general age? And how long have y been a believer in Christ? (I hope you weren’t offended by those questions.)

  182. P.S. don’t forget to use slowed, controlled breathing when you’re doing your contemplative. (that was a,so in Mike’s book)

  183. Ariel

    I don’t really see the problem with anything you just wrote. God says (Psalm 1:2) to meditate on His word day and night. According to the dictionary mediate means

    med·i·tate   [med-i-teyt] Show IPA verb, med·i·tat·ed, med·i·tat·ing.
    verb (used without object)
    1. to engage in thought or (LOOK OUT) contemplation; reflect.
    2. to engage in transcendental meditation, devout religious contemplation, or quiescent spiritual introspection.

    I don’t know about you, but I find I have thoughts going through my mind….well..every second. So, taking a while to rid myself of everything I’ve done in the day, calm my body and mind, focus my thoughts of the beauty and goodness of the Lord, connecting with the Holy Spirit inside of me, only makes sense.

    As for the books, what good preacher/teacher/student doesn’t study and have learned about other religions?? What’s wrong with Catholics? Are you maybe taking things out of context for some unknown agenda you have? Maybe Catholics are more advanced in a certain area than, say, Baptists or Agnostics. Maybe we have a whole lot to learn from each other rather than shutting down and being hateful toward one another.

    It’s like a bunch of children in the same pre-school. One kid is over here helping another child. One kid is over in the corner dancing and lifting their hands to music. One kid is following the rules so hard that he’s put himself in time out and is now silently (or not so silently) judging all the other kids. But they’re all in the same pre-school, under the same name.
    Don’t be the kid in the corner refusing to learn anything from anyone else. The Teacher is going to have more joy from the children giving all of their heart for the class.
    “Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons . . . For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.”
    —1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 12 (NASV)

    Why so focused on what other people are doing? You assume to know all? You know for a fact that the people at IHOP who are “practicing contemplative prayer” are a part of some evil mystic cult? Because last time I checked, God was the only one who knew the true heart of a man. (1 Samuel 16:7)

    And to answer your question, I am 20 years old. I’ve been a spirit-filled Bible believing Christian for my entire life raised in a spirit-filled, Bible believing, prayer and faith centered household for my entire life. I’ve been in many churches, in many different states, and seen and ministered to a whole lot of desperate people who aren’t getting what they need from the normal Sunday services.

    There are no words of a man that could change your heart. This I know. I don’t know why there is so much hate in your heart for Mike Bickle and the International House of Prayer, but I will truly be praying in love for you and the freedom from it because I know the grief that comes with it.

    Ariel

  184. Ok. “Catholics are more advanced in certain area than say Baptists or agnostics”?!

    FYI: An agnostic is someone who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God. So when you compare agnostics with Baptists you’re talking apples and oranges. Besides that, you’re telling me praying to Mary is AOK also? Not allowing to marry? Calling a man “Father”? (And the list goes on….)

    Back to the subject we were really discussing. Contemplative prayer, once again, according to Mike Bickel’s book on it, requires an emptying of the mind and controlled breathing. Without making this 14 pgs long, just give me the scriptures on 1. Controlled breathing and 2. Emptying the mind completely IN ORDER TO pray effectively.

    According to James 5:16b you don’t do either of those. Actually, that word, “fervent”, REQUIRES an active, actually a very active, mind for prayer. Emptying the mind in order to pray? That reminds me of the story in Matthew 12. When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, “I will return to my house from which I came.” And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and well there; and the last state of the man is worse than the first.

    And yes, I realize that’s discussing someone from whom demons have been driven out. However, when you empty your mind while taking part in an occult practice, you WILL be opening yourself up to the spirit world, and no, we’re not talking Holy Spirit either.

    TM IS an occult practice yet #2 in your definition of “meditate” lists it as though there was nothing inherently wrong with it at all. You believe that?!

    IHOP doctrine has all but destroyed my family and others. Your attitude of superiority over other believers in Christ is alone proof that something’s not right at IHOP. Did you ever check out http://www.gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com ? She’s a former IHOPper whose eyes were opened to the deception.

  185. I realized that this post has been made in ’09 but I see people were commenting even to 2012, so I’d like to add a little bit of info and clear things up a little bit.

    I’m currently a 4th year student in IHOP-University. First i’d like to begin with this. Even my parents were at first very opposed to me attending this school for the pure reason of “no recognized degree.” But my argument towards my parents was, “I don’t ‘need’ a degree. Peter was a fisherman, John was a fisherman.”

    Now, yes, it is true that IHOPU does not grant any sort of degree that is recognized by the state, but there are handful of seminaries that actually does recognize IHOPU certificate, i.e. Asbury Seminary.
    Also, there are many IHOPU graduates who are offered jobs in their respective ministry field even before graduating. I personally have a friend who is working as a worship leader in a local church.

    Also, now in 2014, Allen Hood is not the only staff who has a degree.

    Dr. Chuck Metteer (BS, University of Redlands; MDiv, PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary), he was a professor in Fuller now teaches in IHOPU.

    Doug Conder (BSEd, MEd, Abilene Christian University; PhD, University of Kansas).

    Andy Won (BS, Biola University; MA, PhD, Talbot School of Theology), has extensive experience of working in admissions and recruiting within Christian higher education, including serving as adjunct faculty at Bethesda Christian University, International School of Theology, and Southern California College, where he taught Christian education.

    And the list goes on. All these information is available on IHOPU website.

    I personally on multiple occasions, while street evangelizing, came to a theology debate with people from Jewish heritage(even though I’d rather not debate, Jewish people tend to lead the convo that way when I say ‘I love Jesus.”) And either came toe to toe or even have them walk away. Yes, IHOPU does not have any diploma or degree once graduated, but one thing I can say with first hand experience is that; the school teaches the Bible, as a whole, and helps its students to fall in love with the man Jesus. What more is needed?

    Also, to comment on the tuition, 4th year students one whole semester tuition is $2000 not including books. I’m pretty sure that is NOT expensive at all 🙂

    Till His return,
    Young Choi

  186. One more note, Youth With a Mission(YWAM) calls their school University of the Nations. And they definitely don’t look anything like a “university.” I was part of YWAM for a short period of time as well.

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