Calling all ex charismaniacs !!!

As I said in my last post Ihave been kinda lurking behind the scenes of this blog for a while not really wanting to engage just from sheer exhaustion and a large dose of discouragement at the enormous amount of content that one has to cover justto stay up on things. This “prophetic movement is so slick and moves so quickly it seems like everyday there is a new thing (pun intended) to hear a new promise of breakthrough to wait for, a new impartation to recieve. I just can’t keep up with the darn thing. So I was thinking maybe I don’t have to. Maybe I could ask for a little help. So hear is what I want… I want your stories, your testimonies, your experiences , but I don’t want them all raw and wriggling. What I mean by that is I want to hear your stories , but I don’t want to turn my Blog into a slander mill , I am asking that you give me just the facts and that they can be verified. No guessing at motives, no smarmy caulous remarks, Iwant you to express your hurt and disalusionment ,But in a healthy Christ centered way. This will help with the whole ” Hey you are just wounded and slandering Gods movement and touching His annointed” nonsense.  It is my desire to use these testimonies on this site to show folks who are strugglin with coming out of the woods that they are not alone and to confront these false men who would willingly or unwillingly decieve the brethren. So I hope to hear from you all…..  Please send stories to

xcharismaniacs@gmail.com

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143 Comments

Filed under charismatic, Heresy, ihop, prophetic, word of faith

143 responses to “Calling all ex charismaniacs !!!

  1. Hi, I’m Bill and I’m an ex-charismaniac.

    (Group) Hi, Bill!

  2. jarrod

    lol!!

    I am not actually trying to start a support group but whatever.

  3. TimH

    The Discernment Prayer

    God grant me the discernment to accept the things I need not change…

    To teach and correct the things I can…
    And the wisdom to know the truth….

    Hi Bill……
    (ahhh the memories… because of my dad)

  4. Houghton

    Over the past year, my church, a multi-house church structure, has been swept up in the “prophetic evangelism” movement. It has been a disheartening and nearly crippling experience for me personally, and I have found myself silent and completely confused. In particular, the teachings of Mike Bickle & IHOP and Bill Johnson & Bethel have been the focus. I would like to read information that fairly and substantively critiques Bill Johnson. He seems to have flown “under the radar” for the most part. Also, I would ask if anyone is able to connect the dots between something recent I read about “sonship vs. orphans” and whether this is an outgrowth of Manifest Sons of God theology.

  5. Houghton,

    Sonship or “Adoption” is a basic doctrine of Protestant Christianity. The Westminster Confession of Faith contains the first systematic understanding of this biblical concept. Find it here:

    http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

    Manifest Sons of God, ahem, heresy…overextends the biblical analogy of sonship.

  6. Houghton

    Nathaniel, I appreciate the comment. I’m aware of the doctrine of adoption. It was one of the first verses I treasured after I became a Christian. What I was hoping for was to determine whether the Prophetic Movement’s recent use of the “Sonship vs. Orphans” dichotomy was a mask for Manifest Sons of God theology. It has popped up in my church recently, and I suspect it is connected. Can anyone help?

  7. Houghton,

    I could help…but I would have to see the literature/curriculum which you refer to. The Sonship course begun by Jack Miller is a worthwhile tool for understanding adoption, passive righteousness, and the freedom of Christ. Unfortunately, his pioneering work has been hijacked to validate other agendas in many churches.

  8. Houghton

    Nathaniel,

    I think most of what they are using is coming from this author: http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Slavery-Sonship-Jack-Frost/dp/0768423856

    He also has a ministry, web site here: http://www.shilohplace.org/

    And this author, Jack Frost, seems to be part of the prophetic movement with ties to Bill Johnson. To me, this new (at least to me) “orphan” terminology seems to be a kinder, gentler version of the old “you’re a Pharisee” tactic. Anyone who disagrees with the prophetic movement can now be labeled as an “orphan” and they can feel sorry for them.

    It also seems to me that they have twisted “rights and privileges” to mean you’ll be a supernatural comic book “Manifest Son of God” superhero. Bill Johnson has a book “The Supernatural Ways of Royalty: Discovering Your Rights and Privileges of Being a Son or Daughter of God.”

    On the other hand, maybe I’ve just become so paranoid about prophetic movement teachings that I’m overreacting.

    So have I connected the dots appropriately here or not?

  9. jarrod

    jack frost is bad for business for sure. His work is usually bad sauce.

  10. norcal

    Houghton:

    The blog M’kayla’s Korner has a lot of information on Bill Johnson and Bethel Church, Redding, CA, including a recent post featuring an excerpt from Beni Johnson’s (Bill’s wife) blog, titled, “Wakey Wakey”…pretty whacked. I’m in Northern CA, and, unfortunately, many in my church and area are heavily influenced by Bill Johnson.

    Also, the DITC (Deception in the Church) newsletter archives features back issues of the Plumbline newsletters written by Dr. Orrel Steinkamp. In recent months/years, Dr. Steinkamp has written quite a bit about Bill Johnson and others that he ‘ministers’ with, or whom he’s on their board (e.g. Patricia King).

    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/plumblinearchive.html

    I’m looking for help finding more information on Graham Cooke…seems quite “teflon”, except for being on some of the “soaking” CDs sold on The Elijah List, or being a speaker at the same conferences as Chuck Pierce, Che Ahn, etc.

  11. norcal

    Forgot to add the link to M’kayla’s Korner:

    http://mkayla.wordpress.com/

  12. norcal

    Re: playing the “pharisee card”, Defending. Contending. linked to Chris Rosebrough of Extreme Theology read an article tearing apart the fallacies of the ones who call us “pharisees”.

    http://defendingcontending.com/2010/01/12/playing-the-pharisee-card/

    It’s interesting to learn that the ones who are actually more like the Pharisees…are the ones who are calling us “Pharisees.” The Pharisees were the ones rebuked for their false doctrine. Jesus called those who held to sound teaching “disciples”.

  13. Houghton

    I might be a bit more explicit here — does anyone have any solid information that substantively critiques Frost’s “Sonship vs. orphans” dichotomy?

    I ask because I think it’s pretty easy for discussions about it to get sidetracked with misunderstandings, such as the thread above, wherein someone mistook my question for an absence of knowledge about the doctrine of adoption. My question explicitly is: Are Frost’s “Slavery to Sonship” book and workshop and other materials a mask for Manifest Sons of God theology?

    Norcal, thanks for the blog tip. I’ll check it out. I’ve already read plenty about Bethel, however, and I’m very well aware of the wackiness of the entire prophetic movement.

    What I’m really asking about is this specific thing related to Jack Frost and his materials. It seems to be a new spin, the latest re-branding effort. I’ve noticed that whenever one of their brand names starts to sour through bad publicity and word of mouth, they move on to a new label.

    I’ll confess to a level of frustration in reading blogs and other sources — many seem focused on either sharing stories, or critiquing materials from the prophetic movement that are old. In other words, fighting yesterday’s battles, rather than attempting to .

    An example is the dearth of information on Bill Johnson. Most of it seems focused on critiquing his endorsement of Todd Bentley. How about a deeper examination and Word-centered critique of Johnson’s teachings, and his writings?

    This movement is spreading fast through nondenominational evangelical churches, particularly now as the Arnotts, the Johnson and Bickle at IHOP have “converged” in the last several weeks.

    And unless you want it to simply come to dominate American evangelicalism (and thus fulfill iMonk’s prophetic call about the coming collapse of evangelicalism) people had better get their acts together right now and start countering this nonsense with more than just frustrated blogging.

    We need a muscular, creative, substantive answer to this nonsense.

  14. jarrod

    the only way to deal with this in a substantive way is to get the word out. Its not like we can take it to the nondenominational pope. You are right this thing is growing faster than most folks realize. However it is the old stuff folks talk about that helps make sense of the new. Showing definitively where they come from and what there roots are is a big part of breaking there facade. Its just tedious work and has to be verified. they change there history all the time. as for Jack Frost his work seems to me to be a mix of Christian psycho babble and nonsense . Most of our content was lost in our move back to word press. if we had not lost so much of it you would see more hard doctrinal critiques. as for action dont wait for us to do what you think needs doing. Go tell your pastor tell your friends get educated anyway you can. Its what we did.

  15. Houghton,

    I am one of the blog moderators. I’ve learned enough in the past not to assume that people know what they’re talking about when referring to Christian doctrine. I think you’ve received enough information here to determine whether your church or leaders that you’ve witnessed are using Frost to mask “manifest sons of god”. With some credibility I can safely say that Frost is not geared in that direction. His error falls more along the lines of what Jarrod related: trichotomy, overspiritualized psychology, and antinominian leanings.

    When it comes to “a deeper examination and Word-centered critique of Johnson’s teachings, and his writings,” I would encourage you to undertake this task yourself. I have done that type of work before but am much more removed from the Charismatic fray at this time.

    I also am frustrated, but in a different way. What I’ve seen the prophetic movement do is to use propositional reasoning to defend themselves but to counter confrontational propositional reasoning with faulty argumentation, ad hominem, and false dichotomies such as you’ve noticed.

    So go to it. I would be interested to see what you discover about Bill Johnson’s teaching

  16. Annunk

    Hi, I’m Ann, and I, like Bill, are an ex-charismatic.

    (Hi Ann)

    Get the blog going, dear author. This is going to be good. And, no, there’s no ‘thus saith the Lord’ but, I can sure feel it. 🙂

  17. someone

    God is building the church to do his works… If you are not part of that, of course you only have one fallback position – to discredit it.

    Can someone just explain to me how you can be an ex-charismatic?

  18. >Can someone just explain to me how you can be an ex-charismatic?

    Simple, join a good pentecostal church and learn that doctrine matters. Elevate God’s word over experience.

  19. jarrod

    Sure I will explain . An x-charismaniac is someone who was once involved with the third wave prohetic movement and who may or may not still believe in the gifts of the spirit , yet never the less has rejected the teachings and words from the false elijah list type prophets . In general.

    Oh and thanks for passive aggressively calling us unbelievers. That’s always nice.

    May God give you blessings of great peace and joy in His presence this day.

  20. drex

    I still don’t get it, if you deny the gifts of the spirit being of the spirit isn’t that blaspheming the Holy Spirit?

    I think I’m just going to surgically attach my nose to the inside of my bible and not worry about anything other than what the Word tells me.

  21. jarrod

    Drex

    Buddy it’s called cessationism it’s not blasphemy they just believe the sign gifts ceased at the end of the apostolic age.

  22. Drex,

    I’m not a cessasionist. However, I would point out that many who hold what one might call a cessasionist viewpoint have far more Holy Ghost at work in them than many continuists.

    Someone,

    Would you like to discuss some of these issues with your brothers and sisters or was this just a drive-by curse? Is this how God builds his church? I’m ready to talk; are you ready to share the gospel?

  23. WB McC

    Like many other Word-Faith teachers and their Latter-Rain forbears, Bill Johnson regularly teaches that Jesus, at the time of His incarnation, gave up His divinity. And, by “divinity” neither Johnson nor I mean a white, nut-filled confection. Divinity is a somewhat outmoded term for what is now known more often as “deity.” Johnson’s error, which is generally considered a heresy on account of its extreme severity, is often called the “kenotic heresy.”

    Here are the three quotations from Bill Johnson’s books, each of which demonstrates his denial that the divine essence was present in the Incarnation:

    “But even Jesus Himself had to grow “. . . in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52). This verse amazes me. I can understand the fact that He needed to grow in favor with man, but why did He have to grow in favor with God? He was perfect in every way. The answer lies in the fact that Jesus did everything He did as a man, laying His divinity aside, in order to be a model for us” [Johnson, Bill. Strengthen Yourself in the Lord (Shippensburg, PA: Destiny Image, 2007), p. 26].

    “Through the shedding of [Jesus’] blood, it would be possible for everyone who believed on His name to do as He did and become as He was” [Johnson, Bill. When Heaven Invades Earth (Shippensburg, PA: Destiny Image, 2005), p. 138].

    “[Jesus] said of Himself in John 5:19, ‘the Son can do nothing of Himself.’ He had set aside His divinity” [Bill Johnson, The Supernatural Power of a Transformed Mind (Shippensburg, PA: Destiny Image, 2005), p. 50].

    Bear in mind that these quotations come from widely published books. Presumably, copy editors and theological reviewers were available to Johnson. That he has not seen fit to modify his expression of this doctrine over the course of several years seems to reliably indicate that he is satisfied that his words clearly communicate his meaning. Therefore, it is reasonable to take his words at face value–that is, as an instance of the kenotic heresy.

    For further information on the kenotic heresy, see: http://www.theopedia.com/Kenosis or http://www.carm.org/kenosis.

  24. WB mcC,

    The word ‘kenosis’ comes from Philippians 2:7 primarily when applied to Christology. The kenotic effect of incarnation is hardly heretical…when understood properly. Namely, that Christ demonstrated infinite condescension in clothing himself with the limitations of humanity. In this sense, ontology is not the point but humility. In the greater context of Phil 2 Paul is presenting a word picture to match the instructions which he has for the Philippian church. The Phil 2:5-11 Christ-hymn is the perfect rejoinder (and buttress) to Paul’s earlier exhortation to, “Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.” (Phil 2:3)

    Thus one could agree with Gresham Machen that the verb ‘kenow’ (to empty or deprive: In NIGTC Peter T. O’Brien notes that four of the five NT occurrences of the verb bear a metaphorical sense, Rom 4:14, 1 Cor 1:17, 2 Cor 9:3, 1 Cor 9:15, the balance of probability lies in favour of a figurative connotation in Phil 2:7 as well) has a more focused ethical implication when he says that, “the unselfishness of Christ, which is held up for imitation by the Philippian Christians, is found no doubt primarily in the incarnation.”

    Phil 2:7a “But he [Christ] emptied himself ,” not in regard to essence or substance, but, in regard to divine privilege. In this way one can see 2 Cor 8:9 as being an apt identifier, “though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich.”

  25. W B Mc

    Nate, I agree that the word “kenosis” is a biblical term and refers to orthodox theology. But the adjective form, “kenotic” (as in “kenotic view,” “kenotic theology,” “kenotic christology,” or “kenotic doctrine”) more often than not refers to the heresy to which I referred: that in which the kenosis is incorrectly understood as ontological.

    Since you cited O’Brien, perhaps you can read down to his point titled “(a) He Gave Up the Form of God,” where he demonstrates the usage:

    “Earlier exponents of this Kenotic view (e.g., C. Gore, P. T. Forsyth, and H. R. Mackintosh) claimed that ‘at the incarnation Christ divested himself of the “relative” attributes of deity, omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence, but retained the “essential attributes” of holiness, love and righteousness’.84 There is no basis for such speculations in the text of the hymn, and later scholars who espouse a Kenotic Christology have tended to use Phil. 2:7 as illustrative of their teaching rather than as a main argument” [O’Brien, P. T. (1991). The Epistle to the Philippians : A commentary on the Greek text (218). Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans.]

    Also, please see:
    1. Berkhof’s Systematic Theology, pp. 327-29.
    2. Culver’s Systematic Theology: Biblical and Historical, pp. 485, 491, 512, 515.
    3. Bruce, The Humiliation of Christ, p. xiii, 4, 133-90, 220, 271, 386.
    4. Grudem, Systematic Theology, p. 550f..
    5. Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith, p. 615-17.
    6. Zachariades in Brand’s Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary, p. 979.
    7. Fahlbusch, Encyclopedia of Christianity, vol. 3, p. 110.
    8. Wood, New Bible Dictionary, 3rd. ed., p. 643.
    9. Gunton, Christ and Creation, p. 82.
    10. Cross, The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, p. 928.

    etc.

    I hope this helps.

    Blessings,

  26. WB,

    “Nate, I agree that the word “kenosis” is a biblical term and refers to orthodox theology.”

    That’s all I was looking for.

    Kenosis should be understood ethically and not ontologically. “Later scholars” would do well to use Phil 2:7a as merely illustrative for advancing an erroneous view of kenosis. Even though many would still argue that it is one of the most primitive conceptions of Christology in the NT, even predating Pauline authorship of the epistle. But, with redaction concerns aside, I suppose the question would be…how does Bill Johnson understand the verse?

  27. WB McC

    Nate: “I suppose the question would be…how does Bill Johnson understand the verse?”

    Please see Johnson’s explanations of the kenosis, which I posted, above. If Johnson’s understanding of kenosis is not heretical, then the liberal kenoticists of the 19th century seem to me to be due an abject apology.

    But, really, as I’m certain you know, Nate: This isn’t rocket science. If Jesus did not come as God, what was the value of His sacrifice? Can one mere man die as an atonement for many? And, if He came as only a man, presumably He rejoined the Godhead after His resurrection. Can any man do that? Can we, as the Mormons claim and as Word-Faith teachers imply, become as He is?

    The notion of an ontological kenosis does enormous damage to just about every central Christian doctrine. That’s the reason for the Chalcedonian formula known as the hypostatic union, which teaches that Christ had two natures: one human, one divine. This formula seems to me to be plainly contradicted by Johnson’s teaching that Jesus “set aside” His divinity.

  28. WB,

    1. I’m not on Johnson’s side.
    2. I don’t know everything (just a little about Phil 2:5-11 since I wrote my Greek exegesis paper on the text…that’s what piqued my interest in your reply.)
    3. You are one of the more studied visitors to our blog. I hope that you will contribute more on this topic and any others which you have a mind to.

  29. WB McC

    Nat, sorry: I didn’t mean to imply either that you were on Johnson’s side of this issue or that I though you were. I just wanted to keep the record as clear for readers as I can. I suspect that your goal was the same. Possibly, I’ve managed to add confusion. I hope not.

    Good choice for your exegesis paper. I was assigned Eph. 5:18, which would definitely not have been my first choice. But that was over 20 years ago and I only dimly recall those days, let alone much of the Greek I learned.

    Thank God for Logos and other automated tools that provide such an extensive library of resources and help me compensate for my current ignorance of Greek mechanics/morphology, With their help, I can focus on weightier issues of syntax, knowledge of which I continue to retain, more or less.

    I hope that your own ministry will be such that you’re able to indefinitely stay as theologically and exegetically sharp as you are and even find opportunity for further growth and development.

    Blessings,

  30. jarrod

    Well I’m with you fellers. LOL!!!! that was FULLY AWESOME !!!!!

  31. Cheers WB,

    Yes, I think that we both approach kenosis from a similar direction. I use BibleWorks 8…however, I’ve heard good things about Logos….does it come with BDAG?

    Oh, a post on kenosis might be a good thing to do here (I’ll have to clearly explain what ‘ontological’ means though). If you have any further links to Johnson’s banter along these lines they would be much appreciated.

  32. desean jones

    Try following Johnson on Twitter

  33. ontological – that’s the study of birds, right ? 🙂

    Kenosis and the Kenotic heresy are two different (albeit related) things. The Kenotic heresy is best understood by first understanding the “hypostatic union” – the doctrine that states that Jesus is (was) fully God and fully man and did not give up any divine attributes while as a man on earth. Take that doctrine and stand it on its head- make Jesus just a man- and you open up a huge can of worms. The most common destination for this heresy is the word-faith “little gods” heresy. This is so awful that I understand that Benny Hinn repented of it – while earlier making statements such as “God did not have to send His Son, but He did because He uses men.”

    Johnson teaches the kenotic heresy, as evidenced by the quotations supplied by WB earlier. As I have just written in an article on BeyondGrace, he takes the approach that since “Christ” can mean “the anointed one,” and since we too can be anointed by the Holy Ghost, the deity of Christ was not at all unique. He calls “Christ” a title that points to an experience – being “smeared with the Holy Spirit.”

    Yup, you too can be smeared. Or “whacked” as they like to say at Bethel.

  34. WB McC

    Nat, Logos has multiple product levels and just issued a new version, Logos 4. I do have BDAG (and Louw-Nida and unabridged Kittel) in my copy. Somewhat lacking before I updated and upgraded due to the advent of Logos 4 were tools for NT textual criticism. But, I’m not that knowledgeable of textual criticism and Logos 4 has improved the scope of its suite of text-critical tools. OTOH, the new version is rather bloated and slow but I think they’ll tune its performance over time. At least, I hope so! James White uses, recommends, and sells (or sold, I may be out of date) Bible Works on his website, aomin.org. So, I’m sure that product is first rate. 🙂

    I really don’t have much else of compact, compelling consequence on Johnson. It took me considerable time to develop the argument I’ve offered. Johnson has great skill in taking his hearers and readers right to the edge of heresy without explicitly crossing the line. So, I can take potshots at almost every page he writes. But, within the rather limited perspective of historical heresies, my critiques are not that telling.

    Here’s the central problem, as I see it: Johnson does not proclaim the Gospel. Sure, he mentions it from time to time. But the Gospel is not central to his message. Instead, Johnson focuses incessantly on healing, miracles, and his concept of spiritual warfare. IMO, the absence of focus on the Gospel _is_telling. Johnson may not explicitly contradict the Word all that often but that is largely because his message is orthogonal to the Word. I suppose it’s no surprise that I’ve never heard him preach from the pastoral epistles, which contain many instructions contrary to Johnson’s practice. Moreover, Johnson certainly cannot be accused of sharing the “whole counsel of God” with his church.

    Explicit, historically cataloged heresies aside, Johnson bears significant responsibility for the Lakeland “revival” travesty of 2008. Moreover, he regularly makes approving references to the incoherent ramblings of multiply disgraced and discredited but now “restored” (alleged) prophet Bob Jones, saying he makes no major decision without benefit of Jones’s counsel. For those familiar with church history of the 1980s and 1990s, that fact alone should be sufficient evidence that Johnson is not in step with the Spirit.

    I find it distressingly ironic that while, over 15 years ago, the Vineyard’s John Wimber gave John Arnott and his Toronto church the right foot of fellowship, those who embrace the effluvium of that alleged revival, including Johnson, today seem to dominate the thinking of Vineyard church members and many Vineyard pastors. I think I could go so far as to suggest that, today, Bill Johnson is the ex officio leader of the Vineyard churches. :-0

    All that should be enough to make an ex-Charismatic out of many a Charismatic, I should hope. But, when one places experience over Scripture and reason at center stage of one’s epistemological scheme, one becomes all but immune to discourse of any sort other than a direct, personal revelation from God. And, such an experience, if it _did_ occur, would hardly seem useful in shifting one’s focus from experience to discourse. Does God need to speak in an audible voice, saying “Read my Word?” Or, has He already spoken to His sheep ever so clearly in ever so many ways. . . ?

  35. “All that should be enough to make an ex-Charismatic out of many a Charismatic, I should hope. ”

    Indeed.

  36. Well, for what it’s worth, I’m from Northern California and used to attend meetings at Bethel when I could make the drive. I was around this stuff first hand for years. My blog (that I haven’t written on in over a year from exhausting retards) might help a wee bit, I don’t know.

    Click all the “before you read” type of stuff up top though, then proceed. Otherwise you won’t understand what you’re reading.

  37. It’s “conversations” like this that bring me back to this blog, daily. You guys are awesome!

  38. cheaperdozen,

    Feel free to hop in on the fun any time.

  39. someone else

    Hey guys (excuse my grammar and spelling) . I am christian. And im curious as to why an ex-charismatic dosent believe God continues to do miracles through normal people in todays world.

    I infact like bill johnson , and agree with everything he teaches . I watch all the weekley sermons ( once or twice) ahahaha. Im pretty young still so i could honestly say that , bill johnson preaching has only affected me for the only the last for years and before that , the elijah list would be a totally new thing for me
    (i would have no idea what you’re talking about if you said the name bill johnson, Jason westerfield , patricia etc. etc.)

    Now i was raised christian and went to church every sunday . i memorized lots of scripture and could say ive ready the bible a couple times , not including how many sermons ive listened to. So i have a few questions , sorry to make this long.

    So im wondering, if the bible says god is love , what does that mean? and the book of solomon , why is it in the bible ? I personally have my own answers to these questions , but id like to hear an ex-charismatics views to these questions.

    I believe that Love is a two sided blade , and i believe that love between two people is felt on either end , an experience so to say ? Now would a relationship with this God figure open the door to an experience ? hmm .

    Peronsally ( before i ever heard of bill johonson etc. etc.) i have experienced god , with no prior experience before that. And the experince was amazing , some would say its weird , to me its normal , because since then , its continued to happen. Now the experince or the “God encounter” , I believed happened because at the time I was super hungery and curious about god. Iread my bible continously and spent most my time in the prayer room at church. Then one night it just happened , i encountered god. Now I dont believe that experience trumps all , but i do belive experience is important . Much like how you experience a friend , a loved one , or your sister. Faith pleases god and i believe that everything based around experienced would be bad , and i also think everything based around no experience would be bad. I believe both is needed to learn the lessons that makes us christ like

    Is an encounter with God un-biblical ?

    I didnt blog to infact start a fight or put you guys down or bash or anything ahahah. But i believe god lead me here, i like to talk about controversial things. I’d like most to see where you guys are coming from and visa-versa. And i find the more i talk about my faith the stronger it gets 😐 !

  40. someone else,

    If you’ve read the bible several times and memorized Scripture you should probably know that there is no ‘Book of Solomon’ to be found within the canon.

  41. jarrod

    well some one else.

    you said “im curious as to why an ex-charismatic dosent believe God continues to do miracles through normal people in todays world.”

    Who says we dont.

    You say ” infact like bill johnson , and agree with everything he teaches ”

    First I have to ask who are you ? And why does it matter if y ou agree with everything he says ? second I don’t agree with everything anyone says , but thats just me.

    Next you say “if the bible says god is love , what does that mean? and the book of solomon , why is it in the bible ?”

    My answer is simple God is love , indeed . the question is what does that mean right ? Well it means that God is pure unadulturated omnipotent love in ecstasis . Holy selfless other centered love that takes place within the Holy Trinity as each member of the Trinity pours Himself out for the other. Each member is emptied once and filled twice. Now that is love. It is centered in the other person Each member of the Trinity beholding the perfection of the other in an All consuming Holy worship. God is 3 persons with one essance ! God 3 persons God is the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit loving eachother . How is that for an answer. I know it’s probably not the one your used to hearing but oh well. As for the Song of Solomon it may be an alegorical statement or it may be a celebration of marriage and romantic love. I am ok with either.

    You say “I believe that Love is a two sided blade , and i believe that love between two people is felt on either end , an experience so to say ? Now would a relationship with this God figure open the door to an experience ? hmm .”

    I agree. so wheres your question ? You have a very ignorant view of what ex charismatics believe. I don’t mean that to be offensive just stating an observation. I have never read a single post on this blog or any of the others i read that says we don’t have experiences with God.

    You say “Now the experince or the “God encounter” , I believed happened because at the time I was super hungery and curious about god. Iread my bible continously and spent most my time in the prayer room at church. Then one night it just happened , i encountered god. Now I dont believe that experience trumps all , but i do belive experience is important . Much like how you experience a friend , a loved one , or your sister. Faith pleases god and i believe that everything based around experienced would be bad , and i also think everything based around no experience would be bad. I believe both is needed to learn the lessons that makes us christ like”

    Ok works for me. I got zero beef with that . so whats your question ? See I think you came here with a lot of presupositions and that maybe God led you here to shift you paradigm a bit. you got the wrong guys if you think we are some kinda frozen chosen just mad cause every body else is havin feelings while we get none.

    peace.

  42. someone else

    no that’s the answer i was looking for, ahahah very good answer infact . I just am not getting what seperates us , ya know ? Like why , and or, what do ex-charismatics believe that would make them different from people at bill’s church ? Im not sure.

    As for your answer about god being love. I actually couldnt have worded it better myself ! aahahaha i enjoyed reading it.

    IM gunna take another shot in the dark and guess that you guys dont fully agree with the prophetic movement ? i sorta got that from what i was trying to read. Why ? From personal experience I think God used it (prophecy) very geniusly in my life. I think that it is also very , eh , whats the word … hmm. To be prophecying over people is huge I think. And to get good at it i think it would require a safe place to do it ya know ? Grace . I personally have prayed for people and let god lead my words and it turned out that it touched deep issues in peoples lives that i knew nothing about. Prophecying according to my faith . I do see it as sketchy though cause some people are off ya know ? and it happens cause we are human , but at the samsetime it can complete change someone’s life. Its hard cause faith is like taking a step off the edge and not totally being sure of whats on the other side , but doing it anyways. I think that prophecy is very important to God’s bride in these days , because she has to know who she is and her role and where she sits in the univerese.

    And as for “who I am” dosent matter , i agree. But I think Bill is on to something , especially in the area of faith for healing . Until i heard him speak I never in my wildest dreams would imagine someone praying for the sick or injured in somewhere like, a mall. It really takes huge faith to go up to someone and ask them if you can “pray for their broken leg” because “God simply loves them, and would love to heal them.”. How could you discredit someone who encourages and is contedning for healings in the marketplace ? I think satan would hate anyone being so blunt with their faith .

    you may agree with alot i said this time and you may not. I guess i did come here and presume alot of things. dont take offence there was none intended, i simply shoot my thoughts out.

  43. WB McC

    Someone else: “I infact [sic] like bill johnson , and agree with everything he teaches . ”

    I suspect I misunderstand exactly what you mean by this statement. So, please bear with me as I elaborate what I understand you to be saying and please point out any way in which I distort your intended meaning.

    It seems to me that you’re saying, in effect, that you believe in a Pope: specifically, not Pope Benedict but Pope Bill Johnson. Put perhaps too briefly, a Pope is a human who is thought to have the spiritual capacity to speak without error on behalf of Jesus Christ. If you believe all that Johnson says, does it follow that you do so because you’re confident he has not, does not, and cannot be wrong? Your phrase “everything he teaches” seems to me to imply that. I hope that I’m wrong and that you’re exaggerating a bit for sake of emphasis.

    But perhaps you do quite literally believe all that Bill Johnson teaches. In that case, I ask: Is it Bill Johnson who nourishes your soul or the Word of God? Is it Bill Johnson who possesses the authority to speak for God or does the Word of God speak for God? Is it Bill Johnson who is inerrant in his personal remarks or the Bible that is inerrant in its original manuscripts?

    Coming to the point I made in quoting Bill Johnson earlier in this thread, do you believe that Jesus Christ came as God in the flesh? Bill Johnson plainly seems to teach the opposite. How do _you_ understand Johnson’s remarks on this point? Do you agree with him on this? If so, do you know that the book of John condemns as apostates all who deny that Jesus Christ came as God in the flesh (see, for instance, 1 John 1:14)?

    Fundamentally, in my view, the differences discussed here are not about miracles or prophecy, emotions or experience. The differences concern truth and authority in the church. Do the modern prophets and (self-styled) apostles hold authority beyond the Word, or not? Does what they speak really line up with the Word, or not? And, most importantly, were generations of Christians who distinguished truth from heresy in particular ways wrong in so doing, or not? Specifically, can one who believes that Jesus came as nothing more than a man be in any real sense–in a historical sense, if you will–a Christian? I say “no” in the most emphatic way possible: Jesus Christ came as God in the flesh and, in my view, any teacher who says differently is a damned heretic of the sort of whom the Apostle John said, I do not say that you should pray for such a one (see 1 John 5:16f.). The Church settled that question a bit over 1,500 years ago.

    Bill Johnson can say anything he likes. But, for him to present himself as a Christian while teaching against the essential deity of Christ is not only theologically wrong but morally debased. THAT’s a difference worth addressing, in my opinion (see the book of Jude, which consists of only a single chapter). In fact, it’s a difference that entails such a gross corruption of the Christian faith that to fail to vigorously address it head on would, in my opinion, be among the gravest of sins. So, if I sound a mite angry, hostile, or even warlike, you can be assured that you have correctly discerned my attitude.

    I hope that I have helped clarify the matter, at least somewhat.

    Blessings,

  44. Someone Else,

    The book of solomon STILL isn’t in the Bible.

  45. someone else

    thanks for responding to my questions , statements , blabbering. I honestly appreciate the time you take to answer them!!

    NOW , bill johnson , ahahah (oh boy) . I do agree that Jesus is god in flesh , because Jesus says ,” if you’ve seen me , then you’ve seen the father.”
    But i do want to stress that god came down as a man. Everything he did on earth, he did as a man. He even beat satan as a man , the perfect adam . I really like those three quotes WB McC , because i think they reinforce the fact that Jesus was human . A Human who modeled the perfect image of God the father , as a man.

    Now if Jesus modeled God the Father , but did everything as … God ? I would have no example , as a “human” , on how to model god perfectly like Jesus did. Because Jesus would be on a totally different playing field then me . I think those three quotes try to inforce just that, That what jesus did we can also do , and , even surpass. Because jesus did everything as a man, and not god, there is a fighting chance that i can reflect the perfect image of Father God

    Bill johnson is someone god has chosen to use . I wont worship him , and i dont live from the words of his mouth alone. But Bill Johnson is simply someone , who i think , Has many victories under his belt and that fruit is benificial to the body of the church. Now I also hope to have victories in my life , and God cant show me things , and cant teach me my own personal lessons if i dont read the bible for myself . I would be stunting my growth because i would not be getting my daily bread for myself. Does that make sense ? reply 😀 !!

  46. >Because Jesus would be on a totally different playing field then me .

    He was.

    Fully God and Fully Man.

    You are not.

    Fully God and Fully Man.

  47. >That what jesus did we can also do , and , even surpass.

    Okey, Dokey, let’s nail you to the cross and see if you can rise from the dead in 2 days.

    Game On!

  48. jarrod

    “on how to model god perfectly like Jesus did. Because Jesus would be on a totally different playing field then me . ”

    Bills right He was on a different field He was sinless. unfallen and the God man.

    No one should debate that Jesus came down as a man , but no one should debate that he remained very God of very God as he walked the earth. He is Fully God and fully man. all the time. I am not certain Bill is a man God has chosen. and don’t think he has a list of victories that are benificial to the body so i guess we don’t agree.

  49. Jarrod – clarification

    “I am not certain Bill JOHNSON is a man God has chosen. and don’t think he has a list of victories that are benificial to the body so i guess we don’t agree.”

    too many bills

  50. jarrod

    Dollar bills ?

  51. WB McC

    I concur with Bill: The power of Jesus to lay down His life and take it up again was distinctively characteristic of the unique God-man. Someone who thinks differently is welcome to offer a proof by demonstration. I’m willing to wait the full three days.

    You see, there’s the problem: the whole line of reasoning offered by Bill Johnson seems specifically calculated to undermine the uniqueness of Jesus. As Bill points out, Jesus was [and remains] like us in some ways but unlike us in others. He was [and is] unique. Why? Not because I like the drama of the story better one way than the other. It’s true because the Bible teaches it. Since the Bible clearly teaches this uniqueness [along, of course, with teaching His full humanity and full divinity], how can anyone who contradicts or diminishes it be said to be honoring, let alone worshiping, Jesus?

    And how do we get from “Jesus laid aside” to discussing issues of emphasis? If words mean anything, to have laid aside divinity and to have come as a mere man means divinity is not merely de-emphasized but gone. Then Jesus is not the God-man but just another man–a prophet, no more or less. And, there’s the heresy. Consider, even the Muslims accept Jesus as a man, a prophet. It’s the idea of God coming in flesh that scandalizes non-Christian religion.

    Friend, I suspect from your citing of belief that Jesus came in the flesh that you’re a sheep, a brother. And, your heart is very possibly so tender that you can’t believe that wolves exist, let alone that a man such as Bill Johnson, who expresses himself in such pleasing words, could be a wolf in sheep’s clothing, one who denies that Jesus came in the flesh. If I may presume to suggest, listen to him a little less. Listen to your Savior speaking through the Bible a little more. Think and continually ask the Spirit to illuminate your mind. If you do so, I have confidence that God will help you see into the heart of this great error that underlies the Word of Faith movement generally and the teaching of Bill Johnson in particular.

    Blessings,

  52. ruthsongs

    Bill Fawcett said “‘Because Jesus would be on a totally different playing field then me.’ He was. Fully God and Fully Man. You are not. Fully God and Fully Man.”

    EXACTLY! this is where WOF and the like get off track. They preach only one side of the truth… it is taught as if being a CO-heir with Jesus means EQUAL to Jesus. It is taught that being seated WITH Him in the heavenlies means we have the same authority as the Lord.

  53. S.E.,

    not trying to dogpile or anything, but I’m curious.

    “To be prophecying over people is huge I think. And to get good at it i think it would require a safe place to do it ya know ?”

    You know, I’ve never seen any mention of a “safe place” for junior prophets anywhere in the Bible. Yet a lot of people talk about this. And yes, I’ve been through the vineyard training which emphasizes this. And I reject it.

    Assuming you believe that prophecy is a legitmate spiritual gift for today ( I do) where in the bible is it suggested that we learn how to prophecy over people and not be concerned that we might be speaking on behalf of God when God himself has not spoken (Ezekial 13).

    John Bevere, in his book “Thus saith the Lord” makes the statement “There is no junior holy spirit.” In effect the old-school pentecostal belief is that prophecy is a gift, not a skill.

    Obviuosly, one who prophesies should know doctrine, should know protocol, but practicing prophecy in a “safe place” is nothing less than man’s idea and cannot be found in the Bible.

  54. GaryD

    Been lurking on the topic for a bit and as I was reading WB McC last comment it occurred to me that part of the error of the modern prophetic movement also lies in the purpose of Jesus on the Cross in the first place. 1) Did He come to die to save us from sin and the judgment that it would bring or 2) did He come, as many claim, to restore us back to the place of dominion that Adam lost to Satan? That distinction is important to understand in order to know what our proper place is in Jesus work on the Cross. That teaching is Dominion teaching and very akin to a lot of other erroneous doctrines being taught such as MSoG, etc. (By the way, I am going with number 1 above 🙂 vs. number 2.)

  55. TimH

    Bill,

    This is exactly why I had to repent and reject my own teaching ministry after finding out the truth. I taught on Prophetic worship and prophecying. I have had to re-align myself scripturally.

    Prophecy is not taught in a safe place, there is no school of prophets in the N.T. and it is a gift that is given only when imparted by the Holy Spirit to edify, encourage, and build up the “church” (which I take to mean not individuals) but rather the whole body, and that only as needed.

    Simplistic but it worls for me….

  56. TimH

    the circumcised of heart manifest a faith that cannot be extinguished, that hopes all things, believes all things, that never fades away. They perceive with spiritual eyes the unseen things of God and discern His providences in all things. And foundationally their faith is firmly grounded in the Scriptures wherein the sweet promises of God are revered as a precious jewel for which the saint will unhesitatingly exchange all that the world has to offer to obtain and keep. The circumcised of heart love the Scripture. They love its study, meditation, and application for in so doing they come nearer and nearer to the God of the Word. The children of promise instinctively rejoice in sharing the Scriptures that others might by the grace of God come to the knowledge of the truth. None of these things is true of the tares whose activity is centered on suppressing the Word of God both within the church and in the world through humanistic entertainment. The power of the Spirit is in His Word; preach the Word and God’s redemptive power will build His church.

  57. Hi, I’m LU. I’m an ex-charismaniac.
    I just discovered this post. I recently commented on “Is kundalini the new spirit of revival ? ”
    under anarrowway…the comment is both on Bill Johnson and Morningstar. I have a good deal to say regarding Bill Johnson, and am currently writing a book on the whole “occult new-age hyper-charismatic” movement. I am in no way a cessationist, I have seen the true work of the Holy Spirit in the gifts when the love of Jesus and the word of God were in the center of what was being done.

  58. TimH,

    There is no “school of the prophets” mentioned in the New testament. Is such a mention even made in the Old Testament? Where?

    I think generally people would point to 2 Kings 2:3, however I have not found a translation that says “school” but rather “sons of the prophers” or “group of prophets.”‘

    If within this group there is evidence that suggests formal training was going on, I would posit that such training focused on the Word of God. And certainly they should have been aware of the prohibitions against speaking on behalf of God when He has not spoken.

    Regardless, the bible does not suggest that the “sons of the prophets” of the “group of prophets” honed their prophetic skills by practicing in a safe place.

    And generally when a group of prophets prophecied, they spoke pleasing things that people wanted to hear (c.f. 1 Kings 22 also Isaiah 30:10) , which suggests that this group thingy might not be the best venue for prophetic education.

    Further evidence regarding the dangers of group prophecy is found in 1 Kings 18:22. In that case, it was not “a safe place.”

    Which reminds me of the solitude of the prophet suggested by Leonard Ravenhill in “Picture of a Prophet.”

    **He walks before men for days but has walked before God for years. **

    http://www.ravenhill.org/prophet.htm

    Cessationists can apply Ravenhills remarks to an effective preacher and still make it work. We need prophetic voices in the church today.

  59. TimH

    I didn’t use the O.T because I couldn’t remember where that verse was and I also think that 1 Sam 10 is mentioned about a group of prophets and somehow that became a school in someone interpretation. And that is how I was taught. I agree, I don’t see a school there either, BUT that was one of the verse used to support the idea. Wrong!!!

  60. W B McC

    Gary D: “[P]art of the error of the modern prophetic movement also lies in the purpose of Jesus on the Cross in the first place.”

    Yes, Christological error almost (?) inevitably affects the doctrine of the atonement as well. To one who chooses to de-emphasize or discount the uniqueness of Christ, I’d ask, “Do you think that your blood can be spilled as a remission of sin?” Or, “Do you think you can forgive sins; that is, not merely proclaim the forgiveness of sins in His name but actually forgive them?” Jesus did these things. Are we like Him in all ways or not? The Bible tells us that, in Him, all things consist or “hold together.” Did things cease consisting–did the universe cease to exist–during His humiliation? Do all things consist in us in the same sense or way that they consist in Him? Etc. Etc.

    One who responds “yes” seems quite literally to have a god-complex, and that blasphemously and without basis. One who responds “no” has conceded the point that the Son of God was [and is] unique, that we are like Him in many ways but He alone is God in the flesh. Where, please tell me, in the corpus of Bill Johnson’s teaching does he affirm, let alone rejoice in, the coming of God in the flesh? I have looked. I cannot find it. I conclude that it is not a question of emphasis. It is a question of omission. And that particular omission entails heresy.

  61. someone else

    Ahaha , I like you guys!
    But i think you have me wrong ! I think that Jesus came to die for our sins AND restore us to the porper authority and relationship Adam had prior to the fall. And in no way shape or form am i trying to steal anything from who jesus is. I think the fact that Jesus was born from a virgin , lived a flawless life and died for mankind’s sins is what seperates me from Jesus and that’s perfectly perfect ahahaha. Also the fact that He Was there when the earth was created and Is part of the trinity etc etc etc. ahaha. But Jesus said that we would do his works and greater did he not ?

    Now obviously i cant die for my own sins … im not gunna pretend that im on par with God’s perfect , pure , holiness and able to die as perfect pure sacrifce for man’s sins . God rescued me from sin , and i owe him.

    But none the less Im still gunna say Jesus was a man . It just makes sense , he was the perfect spotless lamb , and

  62. someone else

    Ahaha , I like you guys!
    But i think you have me wrong ! I think that Jesus came to die for our sins AND restore us to the porper authority and relationship Adam had prior to the fall. And in no way shape or form am i trying to steal anything from who jesus is. I think the fact that Jesus was born from a virgin , lived a flawless life and died for mankind’s sins is what seperates me from Jesus and that’s perfectly perfect ahahaha. Also the fact that He Was there when the earth was created and Is part of the trinity etc etc etc. ahaha. But Jesus said that we would do his works and greater did he not ?

    Now obviously i cant die for my own sins … im not gunna pretend that im on par with God’s perfect , pure , holiness and able to die as perfect pure sacrifce for man’s sins . God rescued me from sin , I was born under sin and not above it , like jesus was. Now i say Jesus was born above sin because I think all of man kind was cursed , and even babies are born under the curse of sin. i personally think the virgin birth had something to do with Jesus being above sin from birth .

    But none the less Im still gunna say Jesus was a man . It just makes sense , he was the perfect spotless lamb , and that wont steal from who he was and what he did in anyway . He came to earth strategically to cripple satan . humbly born into the most unlikely family , and creating a way for man to be redeemed. He beat satan , i believe , as a man , because we couldnt not save ourselves. All of us are/were guilty. He beat satan for us , restoring the choice which adam had in the garden. The choice i believe , to Choose god and to have the right to pick him . I Think love can only exist when there is a choice by one, to be with another.

    Now for prophecy. I truly believe that practicing something makes you better at it . I believe that i can learn to say what the father says and do what the father does . Learning what Jesus’s voice sounds like isnt something that just instantly happens , i think you have to get to know Him and his voice. Just like getting to know someone , you dont know their voice from anywhere right off the batt . But overtime daily spending time with the person it becomes obvious who’s voice is who’s right ? So why not practice ! Im sure god would be up for it !! I think Jesus would be all for it , i think he would be excited that i want to become accustomed to his voice. Just like anyone who’s in love.

    Now there are also the prophets who were takin into insane visitations and heard god physically speaking and thus they could prophecy . And there are other people who can sense his still small voice. I know that talking On god’s behalf is absolutley massive , but he talks in different ways . There are times when he suggests things i should pray for , and i simply pray for it , not knowing why or even what it means sometimes, but i use my words and i use my mouth to pray them accomplishing what god wanted. And then there are the times when God himself uses exact words , but i think that you have to be faithful in the little before you get big huge things like that. I could be wrong , but , being thrown off in th deep end isnt the best thing for everybody.

    I know i dont refer to exact scriptures when i talk , thats cause im too lazy to find all the scriptures i use. And i know that i talk about experience rather than prooving with exact scriptures. But ! what can you do 😀

  63. someone else,

    No offense intended, but if you can’t back up your beliefs with the scriptures, how do you know that they are scripturally accurate? I would suggest that you spend some time finding scriptures to back up your last, very lengthy post.

    Read 2 Peter, chapter 2. This is a very serious warning, to the church, regarding false teachers and prophets. If we don’t use the scriptures to fully support what we will hold to, we need to set the spurious teaching/teachers aside, and align ourselves with people who “exalt His Word above His name.”

    Once again, this has been an awesome exchange.

  64. “And i know that i talk about experience rather than prooving with exact scriptures. But ! what can you do”

    Compare what you say with scripture.
    Acts 17:11

    I’m not trying to put down your experiences, I’m saying that God INSISTS that we test things against the Word. This is the patten He established. Its what disciples of Jesus do. You should understand this, since you espouse the pattern-man theology. Jesus, in his cage-match with the devil in the wilderness, answered the devil with scripture. (c.f. Matthew 4). It’s what Jesus did.

    “He came to earth strategically…. He beat satan , i believe , as a man … He beat satan for us , restoring the choice which adam had in the garden.”

    Satan was beat BEFORE the incarnation.
    Revelation 13:8
    Psalm 22:28

    Many theologians posit that if it were not for Adam’s fall, Adam would have lived forever. The victory over death, of course, is still on hold and will have to wait until the return of the Lord.
    (c.f. Isaiah 25:8, 1 Cor 15:54)

    I guess the pertinent question is this: Was God caught off-guard – taken by surprise – when Adam and Eve sinned in the garden? Think hard about this, because your answer will be revealing.

    -Bill

  65. TimH

    Now for prophecy. I truly believe that practicing something makes you better at it . I believe that i can learn to say what the father says and do what the father does . Learning what Jesus’s voice sounds like isnt something that just instantly happens , i think you have to get to know Him and his voice.

    Someone else,

    How do you learn how the Father speaks? How do you know what you say is correct in a prophetic word? And do you think the prophets of old practiced? Can you substatiate this?

  66. WB McC

    Someone else: “And there are other people who can sense his still small voice. I know that talking On god’s behalf is absolutley [sic] massive , but he talks in different ways .”

    Yes, I think that most of us here believe that God continues to speak today. I do. And, I regularly hear Him speak to me. In fact, just this morning, God has given me a very important prophetic word for you.

    You can find the word in Lev. 10. It concerns two sons of Aaron: Nadab and Abihu. They wanted to do a good thing for God. So they offered a special fire to Him. But God hadn’t told them to offer fire to Him that way. He was angry and they died that day. They died because they chose to do things their own way. They seemed to have the best of intentions. But they died anyway.

    It’s really important to do things God’s way. It’s not what we like that counts. What counts is what God has said in His Word. God doesn’t always look at our heart and overlook our deeds. Our deeds do matter to Him. We must also be careful what we believe. If we don’t find a teaching in Scripture, we may go our own way as Nadab and Abihu did. We may displease God. We may even die. The stakes are high.

    And, please read carefully. No one here has denied that Jesus was [and is] a man. The point is . . . He was also God. Not merely that He had a distinct role to play. Not merely that He did a few things we cannot. But that He was by nature “very God of very God,” to use the ancient confessional phrase. We are not God. We cannot become God. Adam was not God. Adam did not become God. No created thing can be or become God because God created all things.

    Finally, if you think the mission of Jesus was all about our rights and choices. . . . What choice do they have who live and die without hearing the Gospel? Where in Scripture do you find this “right” to choose? And, if God is truly in charge, why does He refuse to extend this “right” to some people, who never even hear the Gospel?

    Friend, you’ve absorbed a great deal of teaching that is not in the Bible and a fair of amount of teaching that contradicts the Bible. I think you would really benefit by going back to first principles by testing everything you’re told against the Bible. If what a teacher says isn’t found in the Bible, you should ask yourself if you have any reason to continue listening. Your soul is more important than your body. Pure teaching is much more important than pure food, pure water, or pure air.

  67. TimH

    WB,

    Great example of how we learn to prophecy… I was told one day that you cannot prophecy with knowing what God says (know His voice) and that only by the “word” of God. The better you know the word the better and more accurate the prophetic word can be.

    In other words…. know the scriptures and what the auhor of the scriptures is really interpreting for us and to us.

  68. someone else

    I do like what all of you Post ! so awesome !

    Ill try to keep it short , sorry guys D: …

    Uhm , first i think God knew that adam and eve were going to sin . I also think that the fact the choice was given, was out of respect to man. He gave us the choice and didnt force us to listen to him. I also agree that we are created beings and not God , though i do very much so think that God has chosen to give us his authority and power over it. ( gen 1 :27-30 , Acts 1: 8 , John 14: 12) We are made in the image of god , and it is very important to take note to that . When god told us to be fruitfull and multiply and subdue the earth , what was technically happeneing is that Man was spreading the God given authority through out the earth. What god asked them to do.

    As with prophecy again In John 16: 13 Jesus talks about the holy spirit telling us about the future. I think its important to clarify also what the word prophetic means. Prophecy and giving a prophetic word means that God has told the holy spirit to tell you something about the future , not present not past , the future . Supernatural wisdom given about a persons life is different. Jesus says that when i abide in his love and in him I am allowed to ask for anything . Now I could ask God to guide me in what to say regarding people’s past , present , for healing and God makes it clear so many times , that Anything<– asked in Jesus's name , when i abide in his love is possible. God could tell me things that could not relate to the bible , could he not ? is it possible that God could then tell me things that could not be proven with scripture ? I mean this is just a question , and i wonder what your oppinions on that.

    In my church , I have recieved prophetic words extremely accurate , and the one major prophetic word has been half fulfilled . It talked about stuff i didnt understand , but when i now look back on it , it actually has taken place. Jesus taught his disciples alot of things , and including hearing god's voice telling them how to be ina posture to ask god for things and hear his voice. They even failed at things , but there was always grace and jesus would tell them what they did wrong and where to improve.

    I think its very important to know the mind of God , just like moses did , And i also think that Nadab and Abihu didnt know the mind of God and on top of that I think they were full of pride. Pride that created something in them that Ignored god's holiness . And the consequence to sin is death. They sinned unprotected by the blood of Jesus , in the face of god's holiness. I think the fact that they used their own fire instead of God's is also a symbol on How man often uses their own abilities instead of God's.

    To say that im scripturely off isnt the truth . To say that I listen to the holy spirit and seek him out on scripture is true . I dont read something , and out of my own brain and searching and studying try to salvage meaning out of it . Instead I wait for God to reveal a deep revelation to me , that sometimes dosent come till days later of me asking , and sometimes ive even have already moved on and then God will take me back to it , and then show me what he wants to show me about what i had read. And it impacts my life so much more because god's timing and wisdom is so awesome.

    Sorry this post was abit more firmly worded , I just wanted to a bit more clear than previous … I dont think it worked 🙂

  69. SE,

    Thanks for the reply. Indeed, God was not taken by surprise. A few comments otherwise:

    Its a real stretch to twist John 16:22 to make it pertain to prophecy and the future. Why do I say that? Because it says nothing about either **prophecy** or the **future**. (1) Most Christians would interpet that verse as applying to petitions in prayer and would relate it to Matthew 18:20 (wherever two or three are gathered together in my name). Word-of-faithers, of course, would make special application of that scripture to things like BMW’s – you know the real needs in life. 🙂

    There is a classic division between the Charismatic viewpoint of (the gift of) prophecy = foretelling and the Pentecostal viewpoint that prophecy=forthtelling. Most cessationists would also ascribe to the prophecy=forthtelling paridigm, although they would consider prophecy as “good preaching.” Good preaching IS prophetic!

    The prophecy=forthtelling viewpoint is taken directly from the pages of the New Testament. The key verse is 1 Corinthians 14:3, which states:

    But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort.(NIV)

    edification and exhortation and consolation (NASB)

    upbuilding and encouragement and consolation (ESV)

    Verses 4 & 5 bring focuse to verse 3, and state further that the pupose of prophecy is corporate – that is “thet the church may be built up.”

    And so here the primary instructions to the Christian church regarding prophecy say that it is a gift that pertains *primarily* to FORTHtelling not FOREtelling, and that it is for the CHURCH.

    Even in Acts 13, where Saul and Barnabus are called out, note that this was for the business of the church, not directive/predictive for the benefit of Saul and Barnabus’s summer vacation plans. Furthermore, in verse 3, we see thet THE CHURCH considered this word with prayer and fasting before laying hands on them and sending them off. This is a very different pattern from the typical directive prophecy seen in the Charismatic church today.

    My point – the New Testament model for prophecy is one of exhortation, and very seldom are future events a part of that mixture. Rightly so, since we are expected to judge prophetic words- to test them – and in the New Testament sense that means comapring it to the Bible. Most of the elements of contemporary directive/predictive prophecy contain NOTHING in the bible and therefore cannot be held against this plumbline.

    Wow, I’ve “got a sermon coming on.” I’d better stop right now, as this is getting lengthy. I might even blog on this one.

    -Bill

    (1) Furthermore, stating that John 16:22 pertains to prophecy and the future could be considered a “private interpetation” (c.f. 2 Peter 1:20) which is verboten.

  70. TimH

    13When(A) the Spirit of truth comes,(B) he will(C) guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but(D) whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

    Could this verse possibly be taken that not only will the Holy Spirit teach truth (and I revert back to the beginning of this section of scripture, He is talking to His Apostles, the 12) and rememberance of what He told THEM while they walked with Him and what they learned from the ancient scriptures, but maybe the things that are to come eluding to the “Revelation of Jesus Christ” that is yet to come that was given to John on Patmos?
    ————————–
    Prophecy in some bibles are translated to mean “infallible preaching” such as referneced in 1 Corinthians 12.
    ————————–
    Is there any examples of personal prophecy in the scriptures (N.T.) other than in the book, The Acts of the Apostles?
    —————————————
    I think its very important to know the mind of God… And how or what do we have today thiat gives us the foundation for knowing the mind of God? Is it proper to go outside what has already been given to us to seek “secret revelation” for the mind of God? Has God already given us His mind and there is no more “revelation” outside of scripture?

  71. Craig Lee

    Bill,

    I agree 100% that NT prophecy is primarily of the forthtelling variety as various scripture points out. Using the Book of Acts is an example, when new believers ‘spoke in tongues and prophesied’ it defies logic to assume they were foretelling for if this were the case wouldn’t their predictions have been written down? Likely, they were instead praising God [some passages use this phrase rather than the word ‘prophesy’]; and, if not proclaiming God’s Word; ie, Scripture.

    It’s clear to me that when I Corinthians 12-14 are put in context that Paul is telling the Corinthians to desire the ‘greater’ gift of teaching/instructing over the gift of tongues. He really underscores that point in 14:18-19:

    18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue. [ESV]

  72. Diane S.

    I agree with the “fortelling” nature of prophecy in the N.T. However in my past experience, the prophecy in modern charismatic circles IS futuristic…most “words” include the wording, “God is going to”, or “God says He will”. Future tense, even though the ones who pass these words along will say they are “forthtelling”.
    Honestly, a lot of what is going on in the church is no different than the Psychic readings of New Agers, with the same accuracy rate.

  73. Diane S.

    Oops, I meant to say “forthtelling”.

  74. Craig Lee

    Diane S., you wrote:

    Honestly, a lot of what is going on in the church is no different than the Psychic readings of New Agers, with the same accuracy rate.

    That’s because it IS the same thing. There are many unwitting adherents to New Age outside the church as well as within the church. And, there are many wolves in sheeps clothing who are wanting to lead the ‘church’ astray.

  75. WB McC

    Someone else: “And i also think that Nadab and Abihu . . . were full of pride.”

    Well, I suppose you could be right. But the question is, where do you find that in the text? I don’t find it there. The text seems to me to be silent as to their reason(s) for what they did.

    So, then, how do you justify your impression that they acted out of pride? Did God reveal that to you? If, so, can you be sure it was truly God?

    Or, was this just a thought that came as, or after, you read the text? Do you think such thoughts have behind them the same authority that God invests in His word?

    The sort of loose freedom with the text that you seem to me to be demonstrating is, to me, a frightening thing. Is the Bible itself merely a record of such impressions in the minds of a few dozen men? Or, is there something special, something authoritative about the Bible? If the Bible is authoritative, is it proper to intermingle our impressions with the text? This seems to me to open one, and one’s listeners, to all sorts of subjectivism and does not conform to Paul’s admonition to Timothy that he should “rightly divide” the Word of truth.

    Do you see what I’m getting at? Add to this loose handling of the text a belief in modern, prescriptive prophecy and we’re well on the way to the errors that led to nightmare that was the radical Reformation of the 1500s.

  76. someone else

    Well , I guess that’s where i agree to disagree . I personally believe that prophecy has alot to do with foretelling , and forth. But id never cripple it and says its more of one or the other . From personal experience of getting accurate words over my life , to myself prophecying over people in malls , I really cant agree . Specially since i see the affects of God’s words creating hope and life in people , and also experiencing them myself. You call it new age , but its really never been new , not to god anyways. Jesus changed the woman’s life at the well with that same gifting. Whether god brings up knowledge on someone’s past or future dosent really matter , what matters is that i can be a vessle that is available when god needs me , where ever and when ever. Now im not saying im perfect and I am always available to god. But i try , i think its best not to limit the spirit of God . And i think there are lots of chances we miss in our day to day lives to recreate another “woman at the well” type of experience.

    And if you think i am below recieving the spirit of truth , well then i guess you could never really get much more out of scripture if you cant assume anything. But I know the voice of God because i test it. I test it when i take steps to prophecy over people , i test it in day to day life and after awhile its not strange to recognize the voice of god. But i do think you have to test the spirits , and i dont think God minds us making sure its him through faith. I guess we have to ask ourselves if we’ve tested what “we think” is the voice of God.
    You can call it a “loose end” But as solid as the water was under Jesus’s feet , is as solid is the holy spirit to his promises. And I think the holy spirit guides .

  77. Diane S.

    Somene else:

    If it is God’s voice, there will be no margin of error. Period. If the voice telling you a word for someone which turns out to be accurate, then the same voice tells you in another instance something that turns out to be inacurrate, what is the voice?

  78. WB McC

    Someone else: “And I think the holy spirit guides.”

    I’m confident what we all agree on that point. The issue is, _how_ does the Spirit guide? I submit that the only infallible standard of truth is the Word of God as illuminated by the Spirit. You seem to hold that the Spirit infallibly illuminates our minds directly, without use of the Word. The problem with direct illumination is that, throughout Church history, many have believed themselves to be hearing the voice of God when they were not. Without the plumb line of the Word, we may experience god-thoughts that are not from God. The Word tells us to test all things and, not only that, it tells us quite specifically how to do so: by comparison with the Word itself. There is _no_ other source of authority in the Church. The Protestant Reformers called this principle “sola Scriptura.”

    Someone else: ” i guess you could never really get much more out of scripture if you cant assume anything. ”

    Exactly. There’s the difference between my viewpoint and yours. I am deliberately unwilling to believe or teach anything not explicitly stated in Scripture. God’s written Word is the only authoritative truth I have, the only truth I trust.

    So, back to square one: When Bill Johnson teaches that Jesus left behind His divinity, where did he find that doctrine? Is it found in the Word? Or, is it an “assumption” he made? Did the Spirit tell Bill Johnson that Jesus ceased to be God, by leaving behind His divinity? What _is_ the source of teachings such as that? And, exactly how reliable are such teachings?

    And, I’m still waiting for an answer to a question I think to be of utmost importance. Let me repeat it. Since you yourself agree that Jesus was [and is] God but also that everything Bill Johnson teaches is true. . . . Please tell me where I can find in Bill Johnson’s writings or sermons where he affirms the eternal divinty of Christ. Whether or not Jesus came as God is a pretty important issue for a Christian, isn’t it?

  79. IWTT

    From His (Jesus) own words;

    Luke 22:69-70 (New American Standard Bible)

    69″(A)But from now on (B)THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD.” 70And they all said, “Are You (C)the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “(D)Yes, I am.”

    John 10: 30; 37-38 (New American Standard Bible)

    30″(AO)I and the Father are one.”

    37″(AY)If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe (AZ)the works, so that you may know and understand that (BA)the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

    John 12:45 (New American Standard Bible)

    45″(A)He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.

    John 14:7-10 (New American Standard Bible)

    7″(A)If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you (B)know Him, and have (C)seen Him.” 8(D)Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? (E)He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10″Do you not believe that (F)I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? (G)The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

    John 16:15 (New American Standard Bible)

    15″(A)All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

    As testimony of the Apostles

    Matthew 16:16 (New American Standard Bible)

    16Simon Peter answered, “You are (A)the Christ, (B)the Son of (C)the living God.”

    John 1:1-2 (New American Standard Bible)

    1(A)In the beginning was (B)the Word, and the Word was (C)with God, and (D)the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God.

    Romans 1:4 (New American Standard Bible)

    4who was declared (A)the Son of God with power [a]by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,

    Romans 9:5 (New American Standard Bible)

    5whose are (A)the fathers, and (B)from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, (C)who is over all, (D)God (E)blessed forever. Amen.

    Colossians 2:9 (New American Standard Bible)

    9For in Him all the (A)fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

    1 Timothy 3:16 (New American Standard Bible)

    16By common confession, great is (A)the mystery of godliness:
    He who was (B)revealed in the flesh,
    Was (C)vindicated in the Spirit,
    (D)Seen by angels,
    (E)Proclaimed among the nations,
    (F)Believed on in the world,
    (G)Taken up in glory.

    Hebrews 1:3 (New American Standard Bible)

    3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact (A)representation of His nature, and (B)upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made (C)purification of sins, He (D)sat down at the right hand of the (E)Majesty on high,

    The Father Bears Witness

    Matthew 3:17 (New American Standard Bible)

    17and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “(A)This is [a]My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”

    Matthew 17:5 (New American Standard Bible)

    5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, (A)a voice out of the cloud said, “(B)This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” (Deut 18:15″(P)The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him.)

    John 8:18 (New American Standard Bible)

    18″I am He who testifies about Myself, and (A)the Father who sent Me testifies about Me.”

    1 John 5:9 (New American Standard Bible)

    9(A)If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that (B)He has testified concerning His Son.

    Let’s just settle this now… If BJ is teaching and preaching that Christ lost His divinity, he is wrong. Scripture bears out the truth and what is being taught from BCR (if this is what he teaches) is false.

  80. Wendy C.

    Someone wrote:
    ” But I know the voice of God because i test it. I test it when i take steps to prophecy over people , i test it in day to day life and after awhile its not strange to recognize the voice of god.”

    But HOW do you test it? By the word? By good feeling? Goosebumps? Experience? Who or what do you use to test it? I ask this as a practicing Charismatic myself. Or maybe I should say old school pentecostal. So many people think they are recognizing the voice of God today when they are actually off. I would agree with alot of what has been said by others, and would just like to state again that the word has to be the plumbline that we measure everything against. Please, please test everything from the scriptures – the full counsel of the scriptures.

  81. TimH

    I would venture to say that many would tell you that they do test to the word of God. There is always a verse of some kind that will be found to support the “word”. But that is the problem, I know, I did it myself, and have had others do it to me.

    You see here is the scenario, “I have a word from the Lord for you.” I have tested this word and in the Book of XXXX verse XXXX it says “xxxxxxxxxx, xxxxxx” The Lord spoke to me this verse and this is what the Lord says, xxxxx”

    Of course the verse has been taken completely out of it’s context and it more than likely doesn’t really fit the “word” at all because the true meaning of the verse has nothing to do with what the word is. And then we go on the idea of “my experiences in the past have been accurate and I have had accurate words over me, so they must be correct.

    I wonder what constitues a “false sign and wonder” to these people and in what situation do they occur? Or is there a thought that these “false signs and wonders” will occur at a different time, in the future?

  82. W B Mc

    TimH: “I would venture to say that many would tell you that they do test to the word of God.”

    Agree. But if, when testing, they compare against “assumptions” they’ve made rather than with the Word itself, the process seems to me to be quite flawed and inadequate. For instance, if we can assume that Nadab and Abihu were prideful, why can’t assume they were drunk, particularly since alcohol is mentioned in the ner context? Or, that the “strange fire” mentioned in the account refers to homosexual lust? Or, that Nadab and Abihu were covert extra-terrestrial agents intent on conquering Earth for the glory of their galactic empire? Where does it end???

    Thinking more generally, why would the Spirit deprecate a text by pointing outside the text for the true, full meaning of the text? Is the Bible, which claims to be sufficient, in any meaningful sense sufficient?

    For all these reasons, and more, the orthodox Protestant view has always been to stick to the text and not go beyond what is written. I submit that any belief system that does not observe this principle is not, at heart, Protestant.

  83. IWTT

    W BMc,

    I agree, I think I was saying basically the same thing…. just more simplified and from, LOL, experience hee hee hee….

  84. >When Bill Johnson teaches that Jesus left behind His divinity, where did he find that doctrine? Is it found in the Word? Or, is it an “assumption” he made?

    I dunno. I hear strange things happen in services that he is at. I’ll let one of his buddies tell the story.

    -begin quote-

    “Revelations 10, ooh I love this stuff. Okay, cause its so alive to me because these are so many experiences I had.” had’ Rev.10: I still saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven, as a might angel coming down from heaven clothed with a cloud rainbow was on his head his face was like the sun, his feet Charlie, look at this his feet were like pillars of fire. This angel that has feet like pillars of fire has come to me on several occasions….I don’t know if it was THIS angel…But I’m telling you there are angels in heaven that have feet that are like pillars of fire.

    This might not even be an angel, it might actually be Jesus, The angel of the Lord. So maybe it wasn’t an angel that came to me maybe it was actually Jesus. But let me tell you the experience.” “I’m telling you is the truth now- everything I’m telling you is the truth- I shouldn’t have to say I’m telling you the truth. Jesus did that, every once in a while, kind of reemphasizing what he was saying he wanted make sure recapture you attention really what I’m saying, this is important listen up.

    I was in Seattle Washington at a public meeting and as the speaker was speaking I was sitting in the front row;

    The atmosphere around me starts changing and become electric, like is there some kind of angelic being moving around here now… “so I’m sitting in the front row and all of a sudden the atmosphere around me starts changing and like become electric, and I‘m like- is there some kind of angelic being moving around me right now… have you ever had that sense that something was going, you couldn’t see in the invisible realm but you were sure aware of it, either demonically or angelically, okay so I’m sitting there trying to listen to the speaker and all of a sudden I’m aware of like an electrical presence, an electrical, it was like electricity and it was like 2-3 feet in front of me” right in front of my chair, it was like a whirlwind actually, it was swirling, it was swirling like a whirlwind. And it was very electric and so I’m sitting there and I heard the Lord say “put your hand out. And I‘m thinking, God were listening to the speaker and the lord’s speaking to me put your hand out. So I put my hand out and heres what happened RRRRRR it was like putting my hand into an electrical forcefield.” Everytime I stuck my hand out the atmosphere was like RRRRRRR…RRRRR and then I thought what is this and God says it’s a portal, an open heaven.

    And then you know what I saw? A pillar of fire “just like God brought Israel out with a pilla…I have 4 ft. maybe it was 3 ft. this pillar,… that went through the church roof. A round pillar of living fire, blue, red, sparks I mean it was pillar of fire, moving fire went right up through the church roof. I’m looking at BILL JOHNSON , he speaking I have a pillar of fire here God’s telling me it’s a portal and its like the bush that was consumed but did not burn I thought can this be happening to me . I’m having a Moses experience in Seattle. There’s this pillar of fire here and the lord says put your hand in it and your first thought is I’m going to burn my arm off. So, I put my hand in it RRRR and it was a real pillar of fire.“get in the Pillar of fire” so I get in to the pillar of fire – as soon as I get in to the pillar of fire my entire body starts going RAAAAAAR and I go up through the church roof in the pillar of fire, its transporting me- I’m in the pillar of fire, its like beam me up, up through this pillar, I’m through the church roof and all of a sudden I, I land, when I say land I mean crash on an operating table in heaven” this is a prophetic experience just in case you didn’t know. I mean, you were there charlie you probably remember the sounds; and the sights, okay. So, I’m gone, I’m in heaven on an operating table. The first thing I’m thinking, I don’t watch CSI very often I just started, its interesting, and I’m thinking I’m in an autopsy room or something that’s the first thought, I thought I’m on one of those tables. That’s my first thought y’know I’m in this room appear 4 angels that look like men don’t worry they weren’t like glorious living creatures like seraphim thy were just like guys in white coats but they were angels they had appearance of men two angels stood on one side of the operating table. And two angels stood on the other side of the operating table and honest truth they wrenched me down, I don’t know what it was they tied me down with but all of a sudden my hands and my ankles were fastened to this table but don’t tell me, this is a little graphic. I’m thinking they’re going to do a surgery on me and I’m awake that’s my first thought they are going to do a surgery on me – your going to be operated on by these angels and here’s what happens, I’m thinking they are going to pull out a scapel and go like (sound) and cut me open And all of a sudden I hear this sound like a mitre saw rrrrrrrr a mitre saw like one of those things before brain surgery, they rrrr . y’know they cut your skull , they pick this thing up and I I literally thought (sound) and they put this thing and they stuck it in me right here on my neck and it didn’t hurt but here’s what happened they went (sound of cutting him open) right down to my lowards and all of sudden my stomach went puchh and everything inside of me popped out onto the table, my heart, my liver like everything. And I’m lying there and you want to scream because you think it should hurt but it doesn’t hurt. and your lying there and your arrr arrr all your insides are, here’s the strangest thing. so then here’s what happens the angels start taking these white boxes, they were white boxes (small), I mean like a little Christmas present, but they were white boxes and they were stuff, have you ever seen anyone stuff a turkey… and they start stuffing these things inside of me They t stuffing these boxes all over and I heard the verse “I desire truth in the inward parts.”

    So I say what do you want me to do God what do you want me to do God, he says get in. I said now, God you want me to get in the pillar of fire, I’ve got a pillar of fire that is appeared at my meeting and you want me to climb in it. One, nobody else can see the pillar of fire. Two, if I’m going to climb in it anyone at the meeting looking at me is going to see me laying on the floor, they’re not going to see the pillar of fire and I’m going to look like a fool, Bill’s speaking.

    I’m wrestling with God he says

    I said God what’s happening –

    He said “I don’t have the thirty forty years to prepare a vessel I’m doing something quick there’s going to be people who get saved and I’m going to open them up and supernaturally place inside of them 10 years of knowledge, wisdom and even character because of the fruits of the spirit. And so These boxes represent character attributes…”and God, so I desire truth, I said whoa that’s pretty awesome and so I come back to meeting, not come back like I wake up I’m in the meeting again

    And the Lord says get off the floor get back to your hotel room – right now, I’m going to visit you in power for one hour. I thought whoa, what’s going on. So I said Charlie quick, the lord told me to get back to the hotel room he’s going visit me in power for one hour, you want to come? Grab your son. Randy, randy Clark was with me, I took a couple of his interns. My father was with me and one other person. and uh So lets go and we went back to the hotel and we went to charlies room in the hotel in Seattle. And uh I looked at my watch it was a quarter to twelve, or a quarter to eleven, a quarter to eleven. And we opened the hotel door and looked at the clock a quarter to eleven we didn’t even have to pray, the moment the door closed, the moment I said it was a quarter to eleven Instantly without anybody praying boom the holy visitation fell on the room and everybody in the room was caught up with me in the visionsI mean, all you could hear was aaargh, arrgh (torturing sounds) everybody was shaking y’know and people were having open visions Charlie was skiing on the mountain of the Lord. I was screaming out fire, its consuming me fire, y’know charlies son was in a vision, my father was in a vis,“all at the same time, it was rad.”

    God says “Todd this is something I’m doing on the church today as an acceleration, He says “I’m supernaturally imparting the character, the revelation and the knowledge that I need the church to have to so they can do the do the work I need them to do because the laborers are few.”.” Moses 40 years , 80 years … I don’t have. I’m doing something quick there’s going to be people who get saved and I’m going to open them up and supernaturally place inside of them 10 years of knowledge, wisdom and even character because of the fruits of the spirit. And so These boxes represent character attributes…”and God, so I desire truth, I said whoa that’s pretty awesome and so I come back to meeting, not come back like I wake up I’m in the meeting again

    And the Lord says get off the floor get back to your hotel room – right now, I’m going to visit you in power for one hour. I thought whoa, what’s going on. So I said Charlie quick, the lord told me to get back to the hotel room he’s going visit me in power for one hour, you want to come? Grab your son. Randy, randy Clark was with me, I took a couple of his interns. My father was with me and one other person. and uh So lets go and we went back to the hotel and we went to charlies room in the hotel in Seattle. And uh I looked at my watch it was a quarter to twelve, or a quarter to eleven, a quarter to eleven. And we opened the hotel door and looked at the clock a quarter to eleven we didn’t even have to pray, the moment the door closed, the moment I said it was a quarter to eleven Instantly without anybody praying “boom the holy visitation fell on the room and everybody in the room was caught up with me in the visions I mean, all you could hear was aaargh, arrgh (torturing sounds) everybody was shaking y’know and people were having open visions Charlie was skiing on the mountain of the Lord. I was screaming out fire, its consuming me fire, y’know charlies son was in a vision, my father was in a vis,“all at the same time, it was rad.”

    “So anyways an hour after the power of God encounter to make a long story short what happen was the angel came into the room that had the feet like pillars of fire again… Into the hotel room and in the natural the whole hotel room filled with smoke, everybody in the room smelt it. 12 hours later those two hotel rooms burnt to the ground, above charlies room. Above charlies room the angel to come down to those to hotel rooms on his way down to visit us those two hotel rooms caught fire for real and burnt down. I said God I’m going to get a reputation. “In fact the next year people did not want to stay above my room or under my room nobody wanted to be near my room last year in Seattle I thought what is this and the Holy Spirit showed me the angel in Revelation 10.”

    -end quote-

    Test That!

  85. WB McC

    Bill: “Test That!”

    Hmm, was the Gospel in there somewhere? I must have missed it. . . .

    Sarcasm aside, how does that report (for lack of a better word) portray Christ in a distinctively Christian way–that is, in a way that a report by a Mormon, for instance, could not???

  86. Too many, Lord, abuse Thy grace,
    In this licentious day;
    And while they boast they see Thy face,
    They turn their own away.

    Thy Book displays a gracious light
    That can the blind restore;
    But these are dazzled by the sight,
    And blinded still the more.

  87. someone else

    well , i test god’s voice in my head by being crazy actually . ahaha . If i think god gave me a word , i will tell the person it involves . Not all the time because , sometimes im to scared or , i ignore it , or something of that design from my fallin nature . But take for instnace i prayed for one guy and god gave me a chess analogy . The guy played chess comeptively and the words i gave him about taking chances in an academic area was exactly what he was worried about doing . Or the time my friend prayed for a lady , and god gave him an analogy about a bear rug , the bear had no guts in it , no courage . The ladies last name was bear and she was afraid to tell her son how she felt about personal problems . Or the time i prayed for my friend and all God showed me was a shooting star , so i said i saw just that , and I said that “i think god wants you to start asking for dreams” . she said she saw a shooting star that morning and that she thought God told her the exact same thing with the exact same words.
    That one was weird because god didnt even tell me those words in my head , but somehow he guided my mouth without me knowing . You can test god’s voice with scripture , but you can also jump outa the boat to test it too. We prophecy according to our faith , and everytime it takes faith .

    Now in my head i hear from satan or demons , i hear from myself and my sin nature , and then i can hear from god. To distinguish these voices that run through my mind during the day can seem daunting , but its like getting to know twins really . At first it seems impossible cause they look identical , but once you start getting to know them its east to tell them apart . dont take that analogy wrong and think that i talk to deamons , but there are times when something in your says ” your hair looks so gross” or ” man that’s pretty much impossible” but based on scripture , Nothing is impossible with god and I am the lily of the vallies , i am the rose a sharon. Its pretty easy to guess which voice is satan’s but its sometimes harder to guess which one is your own thought, or god’s . In which case i call them ,the voice twins. Becaus you talk to yourself and it just gets muddled up ahahaha. Faith is weird , but faith requires works.

    And There are a few quite a few sermons where at the end , when bill j gives an altar call he will talk about how jesus died for sins and rose again etc.
    I think maybe in the “his presence” sermon and cant think of any other titles , but he deffinetely does … Have , or do you llisten to much of bill johnson’s stuff ? I dont think you can take shots at someone if you dont really listen or study them in depth.

  88. jarrod

    first i gotta ask whats with the ah ah ah stuff. second what you just wrote up there is the road to Become a false prophet who speaks whatever is in his imagination. And fyi the devil does not usually say self depreciating things he usually goes with flattery and pride and misrepresentations of Christ. He doesn’t care what you think about you as long as you don’t think about Jesus. sometimes when you think you hair looks bad it is simply because it does. Altar calls are not the gospel and should not be mistaken for it.

  89. TimH

    So I put my hand out and heres what happened RRRRRR it was like putting my hand into an electrical forcefield.” Everytime I stuck my hand out the atmosphere was like RRRRRRR…RRRRR and then I thought what is this and God says it’s a portal, an open heaven.

    I think this guy has watched to much Star Trek shows/movies. I think he put his and in a force field alright. On the way out the “open portal” into outer space.

    I sometimes wonder if God is on His throne and says, “Give me a break!” “Where and when did I ever say that?”

  90. SE,

    It is not part of the normal christian life to hear from satan or demons. You don’t have to put up with that. That typically is a sign of sin that has not been dealt with. You need deliverance, buddy.

    I’m not being flippant. You can get deliverance from this if you want to.

    Another quick comment- you relate some prophetic success stories. Actually I think they would be classified as words of knowledge, but why quibble? I would present to you one fact- that a word is accurate does not mean its from God.

    The current prophetic/apostolic movement claims a 33% sucess rate. Which is 17% less than a coin toss. Go figure. (God’s judgement?)

    I have been to the “School of the prophets” type sessions where one learns to prophesy in the manner you suggested, so I know all about it. I was in this stuff for 25 years. It really is divination. Not much different than a carnival sideshow. You even are taught how to “read” people – watching for reactions and following a flow chart-type scheme. (1)

    It has even become common in the apostolic/propehtic to refer to this stuff as a “reading.” No one is trying to hide it.

    When I raised objections to it, I was told that such skills were originally of God, that the devil stole them, and they were taking them back.

    I’ll give you a clear prophetic word. Such activities are straight from the pit of hell, they never were of God and never will be. God does not need divination to convert people; He sent his Word and His Word will accompliash that which is was sent to do.

    footnote (1)
    here is an example of flow-chart, watching for reactions “cold readings.” Unfortunately, this guy isn’t very good at it.

    http://tinyurl.com/ygmtvac

  91. >I sometimes wonder if God is on His throne and says, “Give me a break!” “Where and when did I ever say that?”

    Tim H,

    actually he says Why do “the poeple imagine such a vain thing.”

    and He goes on to laugh. and have “sore displeasure.”

    Its really sad.

  92. Someone Else,

    I have two questions for you. How you answer these two questions will, fundamentally, tell precisely what it is you believe.

    1. How are men saved?

    2. Once saved, how do men grow in their faith?

    Please give scripture to support your answers.

  93. someone else

    Men are saved by the hand of God , By the the blood that he spilled when he died on the cross , and the ressurection that took place after . I do believe that being saved is simply the begining of life , the open door to a life as a new being or new creation . I believe that men grow by having that mind set.

    Now faith is the substance of things hope for and the evidence of things unseen. Jesus gave us guidelines how to pray , which i believe should be on our hearts and lips daily ahahaha . To declare the lord’s holyness , to be thankful for him , and to see god’s will on earth as it is in heaven.
    Now Jesus and Nicodemus have a talk about heavenly things , that begins and ends all in the same sentance . So what would it look like to see heaven on earth … Well the bible talks about heaven lots , and to comprehend then , heaven on earth , it seems impossible. Now you couldd say that “heaven is coming to earth in revelations” but i dont think god’s plan is for the church to bunker inside the four walls until he comes back.
    The prayer goes on to ask for our daily bread which i believe can be found in the word of god , but i think it can also be found in doing (godly) works too. We are to ask for forgivness as we have forgiven , to not be dragged into temptation but to be delivered from evil , to give glory to god and to his eternal power , authority and name forever.

    I think that all this , lived out in our day to day lives is a great way to show and test our faith . I believe that seeing heaven come to earth , should be taken with a grain of salt , because we have no idea or to what extent ,God is gunna go to , before the end of the age. there is no sickness in heaven we are perfect like he is , in heaven . There are alot of things in heaven that we dont have here . satan cannot be in heaven , etc. etc.
    I think god is the authour of our faith , he will take us chapter by chapter . Devolping us , throwing in new twists and idea’s and revelations that we didnt previously have. Until the end when we meet with him and refflect his beauty and perfection.

    And my verse i use in my deffense about my testimonies is John 3: 10 . its not inaccurate and your accusing me with no evidence . I didnt need to go to a prophecy class before i prophecyed , or had a word of knowledge . It came naturally , and God gave me visions of people and things happening , that i acctually saw come to pass or was confirmed later on . I was mad that i didnt listen to what God told me , but that just created a boldness in me to put works to my faith when God gave me something after that happened.

    I am not possesed by demons … And i also do think that demons would say “you look ugly” … If you dont know the ammount of girls with eating disorders or deppresion simply because of loooks , i think you should fresh’n up your studies on it . And also research beauty while your at it. Altar calls can be the gospel , they can also be for different topics . Its not always for non-christian people … Its weird to think, jarrod, that you think you have satan figured out. hmmm . hope i answered your questions alright cheaperdozen . And Bill F. i think there is a portion of scripture where Jesus talks to a demon in the desert … i dont think jesus was possed though , i might be off though . There is also that portion of scripture where Peter is rebuked with the words “get behind me satan” but his mind was the battle ground that let those words out of his mouth , he wasnt possesed. Also eve talked to satan when she was confronted on “what did god really say ?” . I think he still uses that line to us, the church , in day to day life. Anything to question our faith.

  94. Someone Else:

    I have been trying to keep up while reading these posts and while I can track pretty well with my brother and sisters who stick to the scriptures to support their arguments, I am experiencing such confusion trying to keep up with the reasonings associated with validating prophetic words.

    Let me first say that I agree with the first paragraph in your last post and that you answered my two questions. However, it seems, going beyond the simplicity of just believing what you wrote, and staying in that place of simple faith, that seems to be where people get in to trouble.

    And this confusion always seems to arise and be present when having so much “prophetic license.” It breeds confusion just trying to sort it out. It cannot be judged to line up with the Word of God in such a way that is clear enough, or solid enough, to even be considered “of God.”

    “The testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.” Essentially, most of the “word’s of knowledge” seem more akin to reading someone’s tea-leaves, even though you may even be telling them the secrets of their hearts. These words have nothing to do with the testimony of Jesus. Any prophecy, of any kind, that doesn’t focus on what we have obtained, who we are now, by faith in what Jesus has already done on the cross and subsequent resurection, (the testimony of Jesus) is a deliberate diversion. All the flattery, all the conditional promises, all the knowledge of what we may have eaten that morning for breakfast have no meaning; not in the eternal sense. Does it lift up and exalt the name of Jesus? Back in my day, when I embraced this stuff, it didn’t. The enemy wants nothing more than to get us off the message of the cross – and this whole “movement” runs far afield of this message. So far afield, that the power of that message has lost its power in their congregations.

    You said: “I think god is the authour of our faith , he will take us chapter by chapter . Devolping us , throwing in new twists and idea’s and revelations that we didnt previously have.” How do you know these new twists, idea’s and revelations are from God? Like the revelation Todd Bentley had of the boxes being placed inside the bodies of people – how do you, Someone Else, judge that one?

    You see, people posting here have been there and come out because this stuff has such a flimsy, false foundation that cannot be proven correct – therefore must be counted false. Period. We have no other option. Either we can be true to God, and His word, or be FULL of confusion, HAVING to follow what these men teach because their new revelations, and their meanings, can only be supported by THEM. The scriptures don’t read this way – they don’t support this stuff.

    Not only does this “movement” have a shaky foundation, many of the men on the top of the food chain are dishonest, historical revisionists, sexually perverted, and manipulative. They cannot be trusted, and need to be abandoned.

    Someone Else, I’m glad you are availing yourself of these arguments; sound arguments in my opinion. You should really do some research into the roots of these teachings and the shananigins that have taken place heretofore. If you still believe God is in the midst of this confusion, at least you will have the whole truth to help guide your decision to remain.

  95. Someone else,

    What do you envision to gain by continuing this thread of discussion? You are obviously mired in the practice of radical Charismaticism. Do you still not understand what an ex-Charismatic is or are you enjoying the attention of being a contrarian?

  96. Satan and Demons don’t talk to me. Guess I’m missing out on all the fun, eh?

    Oy Vey!

  97. Ok, but seriously.

    SE said:

    >I am not possesed by demons … And i also do think that demons would say “you look ugly” … If you dont know the ammount of girls with eating disorders or deppresion simply because of loooks , i think you should fresh’n up your studies on it .

    Reply:

    If you have eating disorders you need deliverance from them. Note I never said you were possessed by demons. AFAIK, a Christian cannot be demon possessed. However, a Christian can open himself/herself up to being tormented by demons (having demons speak to you) by other actions – for which one should seek deliverance (simply repent and tell them to leave, no excorcist required).

    I stand by my statement:

    “It is not part of the **normal** christian life to hear from satan or demons. You don’t have to put up with that. That typically is a sign of sin that has not been dealt with. You need deliverance…”

    Even in deliverance ministries where demons are cast out, it is better to just cast them out and not carry on conversations with them. No need to interview the buggers, just tell them to go. But one has to want it, because they *always* know when they are welcome to stay.

    Anyhow, did not mean to get on a tangent. I thought you might be encouraged to know that you don’t have to entertain demons. If, on the otherhand, you see it as a badge of honor, have at it. But it grieves me to see this happens.

    SE said:

    > i think there is a portion of scripture where Jesus talks to a demon in the desert

    Of course. I mentioned the scripture on 2/5, remember? However, to be precise, it was not a demon, but the devil himself. Still that was not a part of the **normal** Christian life.

    1. Jesus was LED by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
    2. And after he had FASTED FOURTY DAYS AND FOURTY NIGHTS, He then became hungry.

    So, if you are Jesus(God incarnate) led by the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil and after fasting fourty days and fourty nights you get hungry—you might expect a little chat with the devil. Otherwise, don’t look at that as normal. Its not even normal to go on a full fast for 40 days.

    Standing on the highest point of the temple (vs 5) is not normal either. Don’t try this at home.

    Pattern-man doctrine tries to subsitute us into everything Jesus did. It’s easy to take this doctrine to extremes. This is where the doctrine falls apart – we are not God incarnate.

    G’night all. Going off to read.

    -Bill

  98. Wendy C.

    Dear Someone,
    I don’t know why you came to this site originally, but I know one of your first questions was how can anyone could be ” Excharismatic” When you first hear that label , and your ARE charismatic it is a bit of a shock.When you spend so many years thinking you are at the forefront of what God is doing on the earth today,it is disconcerting to find out that there are ALOT of excharismatics. I know it was for me. I remember being amazed that a whole group of people had drunk ( no pun intended) from prophetic/charismatic wells, but over time found the drink either bitter or poisonous.
    I hope you have picked up from the postings here the diversity of the people who post here.Some folks were involved over long periods of time, some never participated. Some were first hand observers, practicioners, and often in leadership in the Apostolic/Prophetic movement and then left it. There are also people here who never participated directly, but have come to similar conclusions as to the movements validity.
    Think about that. We are not a bunch of offended people who walked off in a huff. Think about what everyone has said here. There are some great responses. Pray about it. Ask the Lord to reveal the truth to you. Become a lover of the truth. Worship the Lord in Spirit and in Truth.
    Peace,
    Wendy Corchado

  99. someone else

    I’m not here for attention ahahah . And my original question was , why or what are ex-charismatics , and why are we different. It seems its mostly just the prophetic movement. And the fascination with healings and experiences people are having ? And that big long post was that todd bent. ?

    My views on todd bentely ( who i liked ) are that he was a bit over the top , yes ahaha , but that’s just his personality. I think he may have not had the strong foundations he needed to be put on spot like he was , and he did sin yes , but as for his stories , no matter how over the top it is there are still some pretty strange stories that happened to people in the bible . And biblically what he described in his “prophetic vision” wasnt off was it ? besides the fact you dont like the experience part of it. God speaks and says he desires truth on the inward parts , and that he is going to supernaturally do “spiritual surgery” to give some people character and wisdom quick. which is not above something that god would do is it ? but my personal opinion is , “i like him”. I think god does strange things sometimes , but , because i dont understand why , dosent give me room to limit or judge the situation.

    In revelations it says “blessed is he who reads the words of this book etc. etc.” its verse 4 , or 5. What i really want to steal from this verse is that , God oddly only asks us to read revelations , not understand it.
    When we try to understand god and fail to do so , it rubs our mind the wrong way !!
    Now jesus’s sermon, where he talks about us eating his flesh and drinking his blood? at that point in time No one understood it, and the multitude following jesus left ! even after they saw him multiply the food , heal the sick. He offended them to the point of leaving , they didnt understand the message .

    Now where did that sermon come from ?

    well from the father , because jesus only did what he saw the father do // and oor speak.

    But the point im trying to reach is this.
    As soon as the crowds left , jesus turns to the disciples and asks ” are you going to leave too?”
    (i dont have my bible on me cant quote exact”) and peter says “were else can we go , you alone have the words of life!”
    Now even though peter had no clue what jesus was preaching about, he did not leave because his spirit man inside knew that jesus’s words had Real Life . Many people read revelation and think they are suppose to understand. but it dosent say to understand. when you expose yourself truth , you have to remember that your spirt is alive and your spirit gets alot more than your brain does. and if you dont feed yourself on raw holy spirit food , and only feed yourself on what you understand !!!! then you’ve stunted your growth spiritually and you’ve created a god who looks like yourself , because he is one you can comprehend.

    luke chapter one: nothing will be impossible with god.
    or ,
    no freshly spoken word of god will ever come to you that dose not contain its own ability to perform itself.

    in humility receive the word of god , which is able to save your soul (save heal deliver).
    Make sure your heart(in humility) always carries the atmosphere to receive what god is saying.
    I could go on and explain the parable of the sower guy, but im sure you know your scripture more than i do.

    basically what im trying to say (if you cant understand my jumbled words) is that our hearts are very important in discerning life. we need to receive gods words , but can only do so when we are open to him. having a tender heart (and or being humble)

    we work to maintain the right heart. we have a humble heart when we perfer others first. my attempts to be humble often fail be cause they are to self focused to ever get there. Its a servants heart that’s a tender heart.

    this will probably be my last post since im probably bothering you guys , as was perviously hinted at in pervious posts. But for my final statement I think that the cross is just the begining of the Life God has come to offer us , the foundation so to say . BUT there is a whole building on top of it ! which is also important , not more important , but Also important. when i am welcomed into a house i do not stay in the door way , but i venture in ! whether i sit down for coffee , go in the back yard for an afternoon lunch , or go downstairs and watch tv , but i never stay in the door way. Yes the cross is essential , it is super important , and an amazing demonstration of love that i cant put words to . And i now i owe him , I owe everyone who dosent know him an experience with the living god . he died for me so that I could walk into all he has for me , and i want it all . If there is healing available , words of knowledge , if he died for me so i am in right standing with god I have to use everything available to ME , to pay him back. my life for his.

  100. someone else

    sorry if offended anyone . !

  101. ruthsongs

    Someone Else, maybe it was already said, but my answer to your question re. “ex-charismatic” is :

    Ex-charismatic does NOT mean Ex-Holy Spirit. As for me it would be more accurate to say ex-charismania or better yet, as Rob McAlpine said, Ex-hype. …. done with the excesses. Done with the over the top personal prophecies where every other person is bound for international ministry stardom. Done with every little thing being “prophetic.” Done with the gospel of it’s-all-about-me. Done with the gospel of it’s-all-about-my-destiny. Done with running to and fro looking for experiences. Done with reading the big name books and taking their interpretation of scriptures without asking any questions. Done with believing everybody’s (including my own) angel/visitation/portal/dream stories and/or assuming they are true, scriptural or even important.

    Back to the cross, back to careful study of the scriptures, back to dying to myself and living to serve the Lord. Back to humility. Back to resting in the finished work of the cross, while simultaneously examining myself to be sure I am in the true faith. Back to being a lover of truth above being right, above being popular, above being seen as “anointed,” above being on the “cutting edge.”

    Someone posted a suggestion earlier about listening to the big name preachers a little less and studying the Bible a little more. Good advice. I’d add a suggestion to find a course on HOW to study the Bible. Foundational mistakes in Bible interpretation are made over and over in the charismania circles. A few simple rules of thumb could help avoid some major misunderstandings in this regard. Maybe the folks on this forum could point out some resources for you?

  102. jarrod

    Wow someone

    your defense statements look exactly like all the thousands of other ones I have read on this blog and others over the years. you even used the eat my flesh verse just like everyone else does (albeit always it is used out of context) I mean do they pull you guys aside during worship and teach you all the right loaded language ?

    Look if you have carried on with this thread for this long and still don’t get that we are not anti experience nor anti Christian just anti thirdwave then you are missing the point. You like Johnson and ol Todd thats fine you can have them I think their teaching is from the pit . I am willing to stand before God on that statement.

    Just to be fair though about the eating flesh thing Jesus said. It was common for the jews to eat the meat of the sacrifice. The priest as well. and the life is in the blood right ? He has just fed 5000 of them right ? so He is referring to His sacrifice being the true sustenance of life. It’s sacrificial imagery. Sure it offended them but I am not sure it was because of what you have been told. He said I am the bread of Heaven and the Living water (look back to exodus) He was making divine claims in the paragraph . He made a hard saying but it wasn’t truly that they were thinking they had to literally eat him. it was the imagry He was calling to mind they had no room for a sacrificed messiah. nor a divine human thats why it was hard to bear. He did not necessarily offend their minds to reveal their hearts as so many are so fond of saying but revealed Himself and thus they were offended by His claims.

    side note : You don’t get to pay Him back not ever. you don’t get that right. you will ever be indebt to amazing grace. We all want everything He has for us , but these guys are selling you for so much less than what He really has. But hey pity us if you want to I am perfectly at home in my own skin as it were and know what I have experienced in the Lord and what I objectively know about Him. I will have both the objective truth and the subjective experience , but I will not take one at the expense of the other. That is simply too small.

  103. TimH

    I mentioned this before, can’t remember if it was here, but there seems to be no debating a person who has had the “experiences” all in the name of Christ Jesus. The “experiences” are real to them and actually to those of us who have had them. Bob Dewaay would say when people respond, “But it works.” That is not the debate. Of course “something” works, but is the foundation, the true Gospel or another gospel and what are the standards that have been established for what is the true gospel since the beginning of the church as laid out by our Lord?

    I am afraid that the “experiences’ are REAL but trying to get people to check them out with good scriptural use is very hard to do. And I blame the pastors and leaders for not teaching proper biblical study methods and hermaneutic methods.

    I remember talking about this very thing, “experiences”, and the verse in Matthew where Jesus states that the Father gives good gifts to those who ask was what was used to back up alot of what goes on. As if, because you ask, how can you get anything other than the good gift from God. Verse use out of context of course, but as we all see continually, that is what we see from people, the poor or wrong use of scripture in the attempt to reconcile what “experience” one has had.

  104. W B Mc

    TimH: “[T]here seems to be no debating a person who has had the ‘experiences’ all in the name of Christ Jesus.”

    I think we’re on the same page here, Tim. But, I’d make the point a bit differently. I’d say there is no debating a person who prefers experience to Scripture as a means of deciding truth.

    “Religious affections,” as Jonathan Edwards called them, are central to the Christian life. We should not only assent to the truth of the Gospel but we should experience it, in a variety of ways. But when one begins to test truth claims by the experiences they invoke, such as how they “feel,” one is apt to be led into the error of attributing to God doctrines and experiences that do not, in fact, come from God.

  105. And, should be not be concerned about experiences that happen in a “gospel” vaccuum? If you don’t have the right message, the signs are not from God.

  106. norcal

    @ TimH:

    I agree with your points above, but would like to point out that Bob DeWaay is quite “anti-pragmatic” (anti-‘but it works’) in his teachings and writings. His chief foundation is sola scriptura.

    http://cicministry.org/

    Perhaps you were thinking of someone else?

  107. norc,

    I think what Tim was saying was

    Bob Dewaay would say when people respond, “But it works” – that is not debate.

    Tim can smack me if I’m wrong.

  108. someone else

    No no , I think this thread or post thing was awesome for me to think about . I get where you guys are coming from and we share alot of the same basic idea’s. I dont like hype either , its fake and i find its easily crushed in day to day life . I dont take experience over scripture because thats just putting a target on your back , and you can easily let that become the end all and be all of your christian life. “if i could just get my encounter!!” . But its not like that at all , and more learning to trust god and learn to love him for who he is . And the whole faith thing , i think , is essential for us learning god’s love . im 22 years old and grew up ina christian family . I took god seriously at 15 , and from then till now ive seen the hype that goes on at christian confferences and all that jazz , but have learned that soon after the hype is gone and we are left empty as ever with life. The only way to overcome it has been to pursue him on my own personal time everyday. reading , praying , sitting silently sometimes etc. . I have had my share of experiences , and if i gave up my foundation (reading the bible , spending time with god etc.) just to puruse experience , id be off . And the experiences where super cool , I wont try to second guess what happened and i think that god dropped them in my life to show me personally that they happen and aare real.
    But ya know , i think sound prophecy can be found in the church , without the hype and all that , ive personally never been at church where it was off . ive been in the same church 22 years , so its what i grew up in . I’ve never seen to many words that were off , except for some of the people who were newer to it , and we all expect as much , so its nota shocker . But there are those people who are consistantly right , and its normal , to me i guess. Our church plays the old hyms to the newer music that’s out. We have the same ammount of elderly as youth , and pastor dave wells has been actually super legit for all 22 years hes been pastoring. Prophecies can seem all big and amazing , But its not allways like that . Its usually practical too.
    For instance I had a word that god wanted me on stage . Not off to the side but up front and in the middle .
    Now the word had alot of other stuff in it that was super good . But at that time in my life I did not play an instrument , didnt not think of music , and was not ina band. I ended up joining a band playing bass (on the side of the stage) , then eventually doing vocals , up front and in the middle . When i look back on the prohpecy i got , it still amazes me everytime , and its a testimony and direction i have , that god wants me in this band . we are playing cornerstone festival this year !! woot . ahahaha . Anyways i hope you see where i come from , I understand where you guys are coming from . But i’ve simply seen otherwise . Im not gunna post again !! so dont make me want to ahaha .

  109. Gary D.

    I may NEVER have any “experiences” so to speak, yet believe the Word of God and go to heaven just the same. On the other hand, I can have all kinds of experiences and they all be real, yet never believe the Word of God and go to hell. In the end which trumps the other? Easy answer in black and white, but just mix the two together a little bit and to many people the answer isn’t as clear. Yet the answer is still just as clear: ONLY THE WORD OF GOD SAVES, EXPERIENCE DOESN’T. So we absolutely have to be hardcore about whether or not experience lines up with the Word of God and if it doesn’t, it must be rejected no matter how real the experience many seem! Therefore, any thing we accept to validate our experience that ISN’T truly rightly divided in the Word, can lead to the second category of experiences leading to trumping the Truth whether it is intended to or not. It will unfortunately happen. In the absence of ABSOLUTE TRUTH there is nothing but lies and deception. A mixture still counts as a lies and will still deceive you from the Truth. So I would rather never have any experience at all if it means leading me away from the Truth, because I still can go to heaven without experiences, but I can’t without the Truth!! Not a difficult choice really.

  110. TimH

    Norcal,

    Thanks for the response… No I wasn’t thinking of someone else. I made a very very very basic statement regarding his teachings.

    I like him and I have enjoyed his past study (radio) on Hebrews. I think I have 42 CD now of the lessons.

  111. Wendy C.

    Ruth Songs,
    Awesome post. Could have written that myself.

  112. norcal

    TimH:

    Gotcha. Clearly, I was slow on the uptake.

  113. ruthsongs

    @Wendy I could relate to your post as well. The surprise to find there are people who love the Lord and are led by the Spirit outside of charismania!

    @SE if you come back, since others have mentioned TwinCityFellowship/Bob Dewaay. I’d like to point you to the 10 class series on Hermeneutics on the TCF site. Very helpful and immediately useful Bible study tools.

  114. Chuck

    Houghton,

    I realize your comments were quite a while ago, I just happened on them. I agree that Bill Johnson tends to fly below the radar of serious critique. I wrote a paper critiquing Bill Johnson for my church’s elders (some of whom approve of him and some who do not). It is fairly substantive and also addresses the manifest sons of God issue, though I don’t know anything about the Jack Frost and orphans issue you refer to. If there is some way I can forward the paper to you (it is about 15 pgs, a Word document) and if you want to see it, I’d be glad to send you a copy.

  115. Norcal

    Chuck,

    I would welcome a copy of your paper. At least 4 families, including my own, in different counties/states have a need for this information. One is in the process of scheduling an appointment with their pastor as their chuch has seemingly been hijacked in recent months and come into a partership with a Bethel sister church.

    Pls send to andmarkpartners@gmail.com

    Thanks

  116. Chuck,

    As you can see by my website, I have an interest in MSoG and all things charismatic. And yes, Bill Johnson seems to be made of teflon. I would enjoy looking at your paper as well.

    fawcetwd@gmail.com

  117. Incredibly great read. Truely..

  118. Dave

    I’m coming to this kind of late, but let me expound on the ‘orphan’ issue that I have been taught. And forgive my typos, correcting all of them would make posting impossible. One is said to have an ‘orphan spirit’ if you don’t accept what’s coming from leadership or disagree with how something is handled. Taught? Yes, by experience at the hand of one of my closest friends. When I confronted him in private about how he was treating me, and directing the music ministry, that is the response I got, that I was operating out of the ‘orphan spirit’ that has an unhealed past, issues with God, and therefore, with authority.
    Notice the shift, away from his behavior and onto my motives for disagreeing with him. And I just couldn’t be wrong, I had a spiritual ‘issue’ that was revealed because what he was doing rubbed me the wrong way.
    It’s like, whenever the searchlight swings your way, slap it back in the direction it’s pointing and blame the other person. Am I without issues? Of course not, no one is, that’s why we ‘work out our salvation with fear and trembling,’ as the KJV puts it.
    For Someone Else, let me throw this out: If Paul’s ‘man he knew’ who was caught up to the third heaven and Paradise heard things which weren’t to be spoken down here, who are we to run around and destroy the faith of others with the things we ‘see’ and ‘hear?’ How is that ‘preferring one another in love?’ I submit to you for consideration that those who do this are actually violating God’s Word in Romans 13 and that makes the whole thing suspect.
    Of course when you say ‘I like him’ referring to Bentley, well- that just makes all the lies, false testimonies, false prophecies, fake miracles, adultery, alcoholism, divorce, abandonment of his family and remarriage to the woman he was cheating on his wife with okay, doesn’t it? I submit to you that by this conduct, Bentley has shown that he does not measure up to the Scriptural standard for a leader and does not need to have a position of leadership until he shows forth true repentance, and anyone who fosters him along without true repentance occurring is also violating Scripture and teaching others to do the same, which is a very evil thing in God’s sight.
    Just so you know, I was on a MorningStar prophetic team at our local MS church plant. I’ve heard Rick Joyner twist Scripture right in the pulpit and no one say a word. How could they? I’ve played songs with Leonard Jones that have questionable lyrical content and had to change them at my own behest, as well as the counsel of others, in order to perform them with a clean conscience.
    Also, your ‘Spirit/brain’ dichotomy is unScriptural, as evidenced by I Cor. 12-14. What is ‘raw holy spirit food’ anyway? I find nothing of the kind anywhere in the word. I think that you are just a little hyped up about the conversation and the fact that we take you seriously, which causes you to make statements like these. you have to remember that you are talking with people who do see the gifts of the Spirit in operation today and have for many years, but have discerned (which is out point of disagreement, which is why we’re having this conversation) that what is being taught as ‘of the Spirit’ in some cases today is based on lies, deception, patterns of manipulation, misuse of Scripture and group psychology rather than the pure, peaceable Word of God.
    Bottom line, if the Cross of Jesus and salvation through his shed blood is not being preached, then something is off.
    Now I will say that during my time at MS, the people who I knew personally, their goal was not to just have ‘encounters’ but to tell people about Jesus, ‘encounters’ (using as a catch-all term here) were really doorways to catch people’s attention by demonstrating the love and power of God and giving an opportunity to share the gospel. Do people use that for their own ends? Yes, Scripture even bears this out. Paul rejoices that Christ is preached even when done for selfish motives. However, Paul also strongly condemns those who wander from the faith and preach ‘another gospel’ even it was ‘revealed by an angel.’ Which frankly is what you see obviously happening and being promoted via the leadership of this movement nowadays.

  119. Tim H

    I submit to you for consideration that those who do this are actually violating God’s Word in Romans 13 and that makes the whole thing suspect.

    Agree

    I submit to you that by this conduct, Bentley has shown that he does not measure up to the Scriptural standard for a leader and does not need to have a position of leadership until he shows forth true repentance, and anyone who fosters him along without true repentance occurring is also violating Scripture and teaching others to do the same, which is a very evil thing in God’s sight.

    Agree

    However, Paul also strongly condemns those who wander from the faith and preach ‘another gospel’ even it was ‘revealed by an angel.’ Which frankly is what you see obviously happening and being promoted via the leadership of this movement nowadays.

    Agree

    If we are born again are we not new creatures in Christ… has not the old pass away and all things become new????

    Then how can one be an “orphan child” I am no longer of this world but adopted, grafted in…

  120. Dave

    Maybe that wasn’t clear. I didn’t really explore that concept as accurately as I should have. The ‘orphan spirit’ is a… hm, how do I say it… a pseudo… no.. I’m trying for the right word or phrase… ‘jargon’ comes close… how about ‘Christianese?’ Okay- it’s pseudo-Christian jargon for ‘attitude of abandonment.’ That is to say, a person who views life, God and relationships from an attitude or mindset of being unloved and abandoned, having to strive or work for acceptance, believing love is conditional. (Truly, ‘spirit of…’ comments people make would be more accurate to say ‘attitude of…’ because ‘spirit of…’ comes pretty close to, if it’s not outright accusing someone of being demonized.)

    There are people like this. I posit that if they’re in a church and behave like this, it’s because they’ve never really heard the gospel and all the blood of Christ has done in bringing us to the Father. I will say that at my old church, this is how I viewed a lot of the ‘affirming/prophetic’ things that would be said, as an expounding on the grace that has been made available to us in the shed blood of Jesus on the Cross. But I am already a Christian and have encountered Jesus Christ, so I grasp this to some extent, I just need to be reminded of it and have the truth of Calvary permeate every thought and action. And if this is what it means by ‘overcoming an orphan spirit’ then I can question the phraseology as being insufficient and somewhat misleading, but go along with the underlying concept as I’ve framed it.

    However, using the phrase to mean ‘submission to and agreement with human authority’ doesn’t seem accurate. ‘You don’t agree with me and/or find my comments and behavior abusive or un-Scriptural, therefore you have an orphan spirit.’ Sorry, no.

    Is it true that people can misread or misunderstand things because of their past wounds? Absolutely! I confess that I have to ask someone if they are angry, sad or tired because I can’t really look at a person’s face and tell one from the other; I grew up in an abusive home and often read those expressions as anger. Down here we see through a glass darkly (I do love that phrase) which is why the most important thing that we can do is commit to love each other beyond all things, as it will cover a multitude of sins and is greater than any hope or faith.

  121. Dave

    Didn’t finish something. Following up on the thought and comment that I have already encountered the truth of Christ, I honestly think the this is where Bentley, Johnson, Joyner and many others who work with, teach with and follow after these guys and their ministries started out. (If you read their testimonies of their early years, they either really got saved, or they are consummate liars.) But, the focus has shifted from the King to his things, and in so doing the truth has gotten unbalanced, capsized and is sunk in the ocean of personal satisfaction.

  122. Dave,

    I’m currently scrutinizing Johnson’s Christology/theology and writing on it after the ‘born again Jesus’ YouTube video came out a while back. Johnson’s roots are Latter Rain and Word of Faith — not a good start.

    This whole ‘orphan spirit’ thing is part of an offshoot of the controlling which began in the shepherding movement which started in the 70s.

  123. Dave,

    I am a moderator of the greycoats. Thanks for your story. We haven’t been very active lately as you can see but still welcome new experiences to be shared with the group. I’ve had plenty spiritual judo sessions with neo-Montanists (what I often use to refer to the blend of syncretism found in the extreme prophetic circles) and been thrown about a good bit in the past myself. Yes, the ‘orphan spirit’ excuse is another ploy used to disarm critique…all part of the prophetic shell game. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

  124. Dave

    Spiritual judo sessions, LOL. I, of course being on a ‘higher level,’ do spiritual capoiera.

    Seriously, I could use some advice. On another topic on Facebook, a nationally known worship leader made comments about next revivals being led by music. I made a comment about the MorningStar Hokey-Pokey maybe being an example. Another person asked about it in the same vein. The only response came from another poster who said :
    “Perhaps the people were dipping themselves into Holy Spirit’s love? Presence? Or perhaps they were just having good old fashioned fun! We are supposed to come to Jesus like a child, so why not have fun in His presence? …”

    My reply, which I think was inadequate, was :
    “If you could explain to me how God’s love is like sauce for McNuggets, that would be a good start. ‘Coming as a child’ refers to having a mindset of humility and receptiveness, not childish playfulness. No one has gotten ‘playfulness’ out… of that passage of Scripture all down he centuries so I doubt some truth we all missed has suddenly been uncovered. When we become mature, we put away childish things. It’s not that we don’t have joy any longer (where is having ‘fun in the Spirit’ in Scripture anyway?) but we need to spend time with God the way He wants, not the way we want, as if any and every thing that we think is ‘fun’ is automatically acceptable. We who are alive in Christ are always in His presence, there really isn’t any ‘coming’ or ‘going’ anymore.”

    Any thoughts?

  125. More on the “orphan spirit:”

    Johnson, in his book When Heaven Invades Earth writes:

    In this post-denominational era we are seeing an unprecedented movement of believers gathering around spiritual fathers…

    …now this gravitational pull toward fathers is happening even within denominations. Such a gathering of believers allows for differences in nonessential doctrines without causing division. Many consider this movement to be a restoration of the apostolic order of God.

    Once again the push for unity at the expense of sound doctrine; however, notice the obvious push for “fathers.”

    And, Bob Jones on 08/08/08 stated:

    …Then, in this he was saying ‘this then will be a generation that will do nothing apart from the Father.’ So, I think the main thing you’re getting ready for is a generation for the fathers to come back in. And, I think the first one that’s gonna come back is Papa. For Jesus came back over …2000 years ago, The Holy Spirit came over 100 years ago, this last revelation is who your Daddy is. And, I think this is what’s getting ready – is Papa’s getting ready to reveal his family.

    So, then, one who doesn’t listen to these “fathers” are called “spiritual orphans.” Obviously, the best way to reconcile this “orphan” status is to ‘sit under’ one of these “fathers.”

  126. Dave,

    I thought you did great with your comments!

    Regarding the “next great revivals being led by music:” Music definitely has hypnotic power especially if it’s repetitive as in the manner of Lakeland for example.

    In Bob Jones’ New Sword of the Spirit message from early 2008

    he “prophesied” this:

    …This Sword of the Spirit is going to take back the crafts [charis?], the gifts, the music as we begin to take these things back that we gave away — we’re now going to take back. And, out of that you’ll begin to hear the new music that’ll bring — put forth – faith, crafts [charis? Sure sounds like ‘crafts’] that will reveal Christ and inspired pictures that will literally be prophecies… [bracketed comments mine]

    I believe there’s more from Jones regarding music; but, I can’t find it at the moment.

  127. Oh, that reminds me, did i mention Leif Hetland, the ‘Apostle to the Muslims?’ Anyone know anything about him? he was teaching on this very subject the last time I saw him at an ‘Alignment for Assignment’ conference. i missed the first day of it due to illness, then the second day I was informed he’d spoken on that topic. I asked our sound guy “Did he bring up the Scripture about ‘call no man your father on this earth, for one is your Father who is in heaven?'” He gave me a look, and said no. The rest of the talk was pretty much about getting ‘aligned’ under ‘spiritual fathers’ so we could be ‘under authority’ to be prepared to receive our ‘assignment.’ Because of course that was how God set it up and that’s why the Body of Christ is in such turmoil today, because we’re out of alignment.
    Leif also pushed the sound guy, me and my piano student when he was praying for us. Pushed us over. I still can’t get past this, I’m sorry. It still stuns me to this day. I have heard of this happening but no one had ever done it to me before. From there on, I had to view things quite differently.

  128. Diane S.

    Craig,

    I’m pretty certain it is referring to crafts, as in different types of artistic expression. A few years back there was a lot of hype over this. The church we left at the end of our time there began having “artistic” stations in the auditorium; one station was for painting or drawing, one for writing poetry, one for dance, etc., while at the same time the worship band was playing. This was during the regular Sunday services.

  129. Diane S.,

    Thanks for your comment on this. It makes sense as Jones was certainly speaking directly of pictures (works of art) as prophecy. My problem is that he could have just simply said “pictures” as he did “music” which leads me to ask why he brought in the word “crafts” at all. Is music a “craft?” I suppose we can say that an individual ‘crafts’ — as in makes — music. However, he also uses the word “gifts” with reference to both music and “pictures” and seems to be equating “crafts” to “gifts.”

    The word “craft” is also associated with witchcraft as it’s known as “the craft” by initiates. And, why did Jones say this “new sword of the spirit” would be for offense? Do we really have to fight to “take back” music, “pictures,” and “gifts?”

    I understand Jones is not the most articulate of speakers; but, this all raises all sorts of questions.

  130. Diane S.

    My guess would be that “craft” is an all-inclusive term, meaning any type of artistic expression goes…can’t quench the Spirit by being narrow, you know. 🙂 Using that word is more “politically correct” with today’s artisans.

    As a crafty person myself, I would say that my abilities ARE a natural, God-given gift, but definitely not a spiritual gift to be done within corporate gatherings.

  131. We used to do that on Sunday nights. I never really saw anything wrong with it, but never equated it with a spiritual gift. I personally know several talented painters and photographers who do endeavor to bring a message of truth through their art.
    I would say he’s using the word ‘craft’ as Diane said, including all sorts of artistic expression, as in ‘arts and crafts.’ Very much doubt he’s talking about ‘the Craft’ as in the witchcraft sense.

  132. Why can’t a painting just be a painting, a song a song, a dance a dance, why does it all have to have ‘prophetic’ tagged onto it? Makes me want to scream my prophetic yell of horror.

  133. desean jones

    I remember one time when I was immersed in the ‘river’ a lady I was talking to described an event in her life as ‘so prophetic. I asked her what that meant. She was honest enough to say that she didn’t know. I wonder how much of it is just religious talk. It’s a sign of being with the in crowd if you can talk the talk. desean

  134. Nathaniel Ruland

    Prophetic yell of horror??? You must have a ‘breaker’ anointing brother. McNugget sauce….ha…that is classic. Tweaking Charismatics by questioning their codewords is never received with anything more than confused reaction (often something much less, more like a look of pity, and a knowingly pious nod)….most of these people are so seriously dialed into their maniacal definitions that they have no sense of levity or even perspective concerning the over-spiritualized language they spout.

  135. TimH

    I sometimes wonder if this whole music, crafts, gifts, dancing, etc. isn’t just a continuance of some of the original “prophetic worship” that came out of the (where I learned it from) Worship seminar stuff that first came out of teh Pasedena Prophetic Worship Seminar…. get this picture..

    Worship consisted of:
    Worship team (instrmentalist)
    Worship singers (vocalist / choir / worship leader)
    Worship Dancers
    Worship Tamborine team
    Worship Artist

    All of these people had a creative artistic ability that either they were trained or just had the ability and when all of this was being used in a “worship” moment or “service” it would become “prophetic” because somewhere, sometime, it would begin to “flow” with a prophecy (usually foretelling) and then while it moved forward in this atmosphere all of these “gifted” people would “prophecy” in their craft.

  136. @Desean– Immersion theology… you’re around it long enough to spout it! LOL! Maybe we could call it ‘re-fountaining’… that sounds pretty touchy-feely.

    @N(P)R- Are one of you guys in NC? Asheville or some such?

    @ Tim: I think they are trying to pull itout of the passage in I Samuel 10:5-6 where Saul meets the prophets and gets changed. That IMHO is the whole theological basis for this. That’s the Scripture I’ve heard in reference to it.

  137. TimH

    Dave,

    Yes they use the one where the singers or something like that are coming down the mountan and they and Saul begin to prohecy… That is one of the basic scriptures used and then it goes from there.

    Use of scriptures that happen to use the word “sound” such as thunder being the voice of God, etc. and how do you or can you do that with certain instruments to bring in a “prophetic sound” during worship. Lot’s to it and I am afraid that I had been sucked into that. Whole different attitude now about it… Thank the Lord..

  138. Still, goes back to labeling EVERYTHING as ‘prophetic.’ And when everything is prophetic, then nothing really is.

    Was thinking about the prophetic vis-a-vis MorningStar and Steve Thompson, and how i got convinced to believing and practicing their prophetic thing.
    1) ST teaches that it’s okay to desire to prophesy, per I Cor 14:1.
    2) Prophecy isn’t necessarily about foretelling the future, but speaking to others for exhortation, edification and comfort.
    3) Since this is something God wants to have happen, it can be asked for at any time.
    4) You won’t always get something for someone else, so it’s very okay to be silent.

    I never bought any of ST’s books (like You May All Prophesy) so forgive me if I’m making a condensed caricature of what was taught, but this, over the years, is what I’ve retained from those nights he’d come to our church plant and teach. He never gave off any arrogant attitude, always approachable.
    But we would do things like ‘Okay, everyone ask for a word for someone else in the room. Okay (after time had elapsed and we’d written down whatever) now ask God who that person is. I got something from a friend of mine, and I’ve kept it all these years, as it really hit home with me about who I am and how I approach things. She doesn’t know me well enough to know how what she said has impacted me, and still continues to do so. So it’s odd, on the one hand that it ‘works’ in the sense that it challenges me to obey God’s Word, but then is it really of the flesh or the devil?
    This is the dilemma for me in trying to figure these things out.

  139. Nathaniel Ruland

    Dave,

    Yes, the creators of this blog live in Asheville, NC.

  140. Nat,

    I just re-read some of the comments here and noted yours re: Philippians 2:5-11 as a paper for Greek exegesis. I know you’ve not been very active here of late, but I wondered if you had the time to view this and provide any commentary:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/kenosis-christology-and-bill-johnson-part-i/

    and, part II which goes into some speculation regarding Johnson’s kenotic teaching:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/kenosis-christology-and-bill-johnson-part-ii/

  141. Taylor G

    Houghton,
    Hi, I was JUST reading ‘Spritual Sonship’– I know your post is very old, but I would love to chat with you about his writing, and related info. Let me know if I can email you or if you would like to email me, you can find me on facebook at facebook.com/tayloragraham

    Thanks.

  142. Taylor G

    Just reading through these, there are a couple things I need to comment on. First, if you have an eating disorder, if you are depressed, whatever plagues you, you must know that there is hope in Jesus’ name, but do not feel that you need someone to ‘deliver you,’ or that you need to have some “powerful personal experiential revelation of Father God’s love to set you free” (Jack Frost).
    God is totally acting in your sanctification and healing–whatever way it comes about. However, don’t put all your trust in those simple words: ” you need deliverance.”

    I do not wish to hinder the Holy Spirit from changing my own or anyone else’s life in a split second through radical deliverance. The Lord can do anything, but I think expecting or chasing that exact instance is a very unhealthy practice. Those sort of expectations are not healthy. I think an ex-charismatic or ex-pentecostal will agree. I’m not saying I understand how the Lord works, but just don’t go around expecting that to happen.

    Instead, look to the counsel of wise men. Not preaching or unsolicited advice, go have a conversation with someone whom you trust and leads a healthy life. Confide in someone older and wiser. Use this and the scriptures (plural) as your counsel. Discuss, journal, challenge your thoughts. Ask people, “hey, I was praying and this is what I thought God might be trying to tell me. What do you think about this? Is it valid? Might it mean something else? Am I just totally off?” To me, these are some of the most important questions of the life of any Christian.

    Sanctification is such a difficult thing to grasp.
    Three things:
    1) ‘The Lord helps those who help themselves.’ (not scriptural but a wisdom which can be inferred through scripture, i.e.: biblical)
    2) “Work Out Your Own Salvation with Fear and Trembling” -Phi.2:12
    3) This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD.” -Jer 17:5 (NIV)
    4) He who trusts in himself is a fool… -Prov 28:26 (NIV)

    These things can exist at the same time. If we do not help ourselves where are we? We are nowhere. I’m not saying that common phrases such as “the Lord helps those who help themselves,” are to be regarded as highly as the scriptures, but before saying that it is totally false because of these two verses, ask yourself if it is possible for the two to be possible at the same time.

    You should always look at the broad spectrum of wisdom shared in the Bible, and ask Jesus to help you clarify and trust the personal message he has for you in it. I do not personally think it’s always healthy to base your entire life off of one verse or another. It can be quite dangerous in fact.
    Take all that you know. Balance the scriptures. Learn from ANTIQUITY, not from trend. I was recently reading a Jack Frost book, and it reminded me withing the first two pages why I do not read non-scholarly, inspirational, contemporary Christian writers. GO read Aquinas, Luther, Barth, Lewis, etc.
    Anyway, I felt I should just get out my ‘critical’ advice for any of you searchers and seekers

  143. David

    You guys still in Asheville?

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