Julie’s story

My husband and I were a part of Kansas City Fellowship from it’s inception, until 1990.  Here’s our story.

We were part of the original church that Mike Bickle started in the early 80’s called Kansas City Fellowship. In fact, when Mike first arrived in Kansas City, he spoke at a women’s bible study that I was attending at the time.  It was the first time I had heard contemplative prayer taught.  I was so intrigued by his teaching, I made it a point to attend his soon to be new church.

From the church’s early beginnings, we were wowed by the fact that this church seemed to be commissioned by God.  We were encouraged to read about the modern revivals, such as Azuza Street, and modern revivalists, such as Mary Woodworth Edder, and Charles  Finney.  We were also encouraged to read about the life of David Brainerd, especially his devotion to prayer.  Also on the list of required reading were all of Kenneth Hagin’s books.  All of this was to prepare us for the coming revival in knowing what to expect.

A point I wish to make, in regards to KCF’s beginnings, is the original prophet who spoke to Mike back in St. Louis.  This man prophesied that Mike needed to move to Kansas City to begin this new move of God. His name was Augustine Acolla. He was later dismissed as somewhat false when a certain prophecy never came to pass.  He was also later discovered to have a hidden homosexual lifestyle what was exposed before he passed away, but he needs to be included in the Kansas City Prophets head count, as he was highly esteemed and credited from the beginning as a true prophet.

Mike’s main focus, in the early days, was to pray for God to pour out His holy spirit as he did in the days of Acts. During the first year when Bob Jones came on the scene, this focus remained the same with the added oooing and awwwwing associated with having our own resident prophet. We were so flattered regarding our calling to be THE group that would usher in the revival to beat all revivals. He told us that we had been invited to pray this thing in. He had all kinds of remarkable tales of God having promised him, through the years, that a generation would arise in his (Bob’s) future that would someday receive him. And we were that people.

During the first year of the fellowship, a solumn assembly was called, the first of several, where we were called to fast and pray for twenty-one days, at the end of which, the Lord was going to fill us with his holy spirit as he did on the day of pentecost. So, fast and pray we did. This commission purportedly came about when both Mike, and  Bob Jones, received a personal visitation from the angel, Gabriel, who gave both of them the same scripture, which was Daniel Chapter 9. The angel told both of them of the need for this solemn assembly to take place.  We began the fast which was to conclude at the end of May.  We spent many days and nights binding and loosing territorial spirits in order to open up the heavenlies so God could pour his spirit down.

At the end of the fast, absolutely nothing happened.  That’s when the focus began to somewhat change.  It was discovered, by the leadership, that we didn’t have the proper wineskin in place to recieve the new wine promised by the angel Gabriel.  So, continuing our routine to pray every night and day for the Lord to send his spirit, we began to receive teaching entitled “commitment classes” which lasted for about two years.  Absolutely anyone who wanted to participate in any kind of ministry at the church, be it on the worship team, or volunteering with the children, had to undergo these classes.  The gist of the teaching was church government and how the city needed an apostolic leader over all the churches in order for the believers to contain this level of annointing.  I kid you not. These were the most boring classes to attend, but attend them we did, because everyone, and I mean everyone didn’t want to miss this “move of God”, and everyone wanted a leadership type position.

It was during this time that the prophets were on the move, prophesying to churches to submit to Mike, or else they’d be left out. It was also at this time that my hustand and I began to become seriously confused.  Our lives began to grow too busy to attend the nightly prayer meetings any longer.  We were a young growing family with toddlers to raise.  The prophesies were confusing and very “cosmic” in nature.  The ones that were clear enough to follow, weren’t coming to pass.

Also, those of us attending the nightly prayers meetings were seeing the original “vision” change.  We were on board for the “pray night and day until” vision, but the rules kept changing, and Mike was becoming  a sensation. It seemed that MANY ministries throughout the Unitied States, and even England, were embracing his “city church” vision, and were equally wowed by the prophets.  When the Vinyard began showing interest, they appeared more influenced by Mike and the prophets, than the other way around.

One other important fact that never gets mentioned, and has since been removed from the history.  Mike had a paraplegic brother named Pat whom we were close to.  Pat always attended the evening prayer meetings which we also attended.  Keep in mind, the early prayer movement was very sparce, a far cry from what it looks like today. Just a dozen or so faithful regularly attended.  As a result, we got to know one another pretty well. Well, amongst all the prophecies and promises of the spirit being poured out on us, there was ALWAYS the promise that Pat would be healed.  So often was that promise repeated that we spoke of it as a “given.”  All of the prophets mentioned it numerous times.  In fact, it was going to be THE EVENT that started the whole ball rolling.

Sadly, Pat passed away a few years ago.  More sadly, however, is how this often stated prophecy, at least how pivotal it was, was erased from the history.  Now, when new IHOPers listen to the 18 plus hours of how IHOP came to be, they won’t know about Pat and that profound promise that we hoped for in his healing.

It was at this time that my husband and I set aside all the nonsense we had been taught, and turned to the scriptures, alone, for guidance. The Lord graciously revealed the Gospel to us and our confusion ceased.  We knew, clearly enough, that this message of the Cross was not being preached, nor was it ever preached. My husband tried to talk to Mike about it a number of times, but was not received well.  When Ernie Gruen preached his memorable sermon “Do we keep smiling and say nothing,” we left. His sermon helped us see the error of the whole prophetic thing.

Back then, I assumed that this whole thing would just fizzle out.  How wrong I was.  We now have grown children who rub elbows with other grown children influenced by IHOP.  While our children have been taught the error of this movement, I find it necessary to reteach the “why’s” of whats wrong with all of this, especially since so many churches here in Kansas City have people in their congregations who also attend IHOP.  And now with the “student awakening” under way, it’s all the buzz in local christian circles.

I need to clarify a few points regarding Pat Bickle.  He was actually a quadraplegic, not a paraplegic.  Also, it was through Pat’s wife that we learned of the histories regarding Pat, and the prophecies of his healing, being removed from the newer additions of Mike’s books and history tapes. I haven’t listened, personally to these new histories, nor have I read any of Mike’s new additions to his books.  This point might need further clarification.

I hope this testimony is somehow helpful to persons who are doubting this movement.

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85 Comments

Filed under charismatic, ihop

85 responses to “Julie’s story

  1. Matt

    Very interesting and I dare say “objective” read. Thank you very much for sharing!

    A few things stuck out when I read the article. I just about fell off my chair when you mentioned Augustine Acolla. The pastor at the Church we used to attend (that was way into this stuff) used to serve at another Church where Augustine visited a lot in the mid-late 1980s and also at this Church in the early 90s. The pastor spoke very highly of him in our prophecy training course and from what I gathered, Mr. Acolla practically introduced them to the modern prophetic movement. I never heard anything about his closet homosexuality, though.

    Years ago, I read our late 80s(?) printing of Passion for Jesus and remember Mike talking quite extensively about his brother.

    On a completely unrelated note, Derek Loux one of IHOP’s core leaders recently passed away in a car crash in Nebraska: http://ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000059490

  2. Bruce Harkins

    Wanted to commend you, Julie, for your depiction of what your were apart of when your family was young and growing. My wife and I had a similar experience in the 70’s in a place called Redondo Beach.

    Your mentioning Pat is a memorial to him. His memory should not be expunged from who he was. Without the time to defend my words, Pat and the ones I knew in my world should have been loved for who they were not for what they could be.

  3. Bless you for sharing this!

    -Bill

  4. Pingback: Julie’s Story: More in Mike Bickle and IHOP | The Church of Jesus Christ

  5. Annunk (for SP)

    Dear Author of this website,

    We’d like permission to post this on another website, please.

    This was absolutely fantastic. Excellent post here. Excellent.

  6. Annunk (for SP)

    And may I say that I have a printed copy, tied together, on my coffee table at home of Ernie Gruen’s expose on IHOP.

    Every Christian should read it to fully understand the subtle deception that’s making its way into churches across America.

    Jesus did warn us that there would be a GREAT falling away, that if it were possible, it would fool even the very elect..

  7. Annunk,

    Feel free to post any of our material. But, do cite your source and link to our blog within the article/title. That’s just common courtesy.

  8. Something I wish I would have said when I wrote this is, these men endear themselves to you. Mike makes you feel as if you are the greatest “prayer warrior” ever. Bob Jones is this grandfatherly, country bumpkin, who was misunderstood from the beginning. Only the truly “plugged in” would recognize his gifting. All of it appeals to the flesh and our fleshes desire for notoriety. That’s what makes it so subtle, and so dangerous. Just wanted to add that.

  9. thank you for such an eye opening testimony. God bless you.

  10. What a fascinating article! I too am a casualty of that teaching, and like you, was called back to the “Old Paths.” I knew Auggie very well, from my time at Sweetwater Church in Glendale, AZ. It was pretty obvious to most of us that he was a homosexual. I attended some of his meetings in Kansas, and felt a spirit of oppression, but still considered him a friend. Nothing he ever foretold came to pass.
    I live in Wichita, which still has a few New Apostolic Reformation churches. Barbara Wentroble, Dutch Sheets, and Chuck Pierce (The three stooges) come through regularly. Thank God for the Message Of The Cross, which I now preach!

  11. Praise the Lord that he pulled you out of this apostasy. I pray that through your work many others will be rescued and offered that life giving living water!

  12. James

    I would like to thank the author of this article. It spoke to me in the simplest of ways. The confusion of this movement has become more confused by those who heckle about the movement like the political movement of the day in natural politics. Bashing instead of insightful information puts those individuals in a confused movement as well and “DOES NOT MINISTER” to the reader what so ever. Venting your anger without love is obnoxious and toxic!!

  13. Julie, thanks for posting this…. I was not aware that Mike was teaching contemplative prayer at the very foundations of the KCF…… I wonder how long he was doing it before that!!

  14. annunk

    Someone refresh my memory, please.

    I understand how Pat Bickle got swept under the table when he died. I’m certain that was even sadder for his wife expecting him to get well, get up and go and then – nodda.

    What I don’t remember is how Bob Jones and Paul Cain were explained away. Because I believe Mike Bickle is still buds with both of them? or is it just Bob?

  15. Pat began losing his place on the “roster” of prophecies to watch for by the time KCF became a Vineyard. John Wimber sat Bob Jones down, and he remained down, until Mike, et. al., left the Vineyard. I began to hear of him being slowly phased back in in the late 90’s. Paul Cain remains “sat down,” at IHOP anyway, still.

    I believe that the way Bob Jone’s and Paul Cain’s indiscretions have been “handled” paved the way for Todd’s Bentley’s handling. Conversely, the way Todd Bentley’s handling will also pave the way for Paul Cain’s “restoration” to IHOP. Lakeland gave Paul Cain a platform – it’s just a matter of time before he has the same recognition at Morningstar and IHOP.

  16. Julie,
    You said: “I believe that the way Bob Jone’s and Paul Cain’s indiscretions have been “handled” paved the way for Todd’s Bentley’s handling. Conversely, the way Todd Bentley’s handling will also pave the way for Paul Cain’s “restoration” to IHOP. Lakeland gave Paul Cain a platform – it’s just a matter of time before he has the same recognition at Morningstar and IHOP.”

    You make some good points!

    A research partner of mine recently called Ernie Gruen’s widow and she said that after Ernie stood up against the KCP and Mike Bickle it was as if satan himself attacked them. There are powerful spiritual forces opperating here. I am currently working on a timeline of the Latter Rain and where it came from, and including in it the false teachings that infiltrated it along the way. Jesus said if the roots be bad, so will the tree, and ergo the fruit! (my paraphrase)….. so we see lots of rotten fruit today!

    I would also like to say Julie, that my husband and I went through a similar situation in the late ’80’s where we were attacked by our pastor (who was in sin), slandered over the pulpit and rejected by everyone in our church family who were told we were wolves. I wound up with PTSD after that and had a breakdown. I totally get what you went through. Your husband was very brave to confront what was going on there!
    GBY,
    Joanne

  17. Thanks, Joanne. I am so thankful for ALL we went through. Believing in the finished work of the cross is so powerful, and it’s all we had to stand on.

    We spent many years looking at IHOP and just thinking, at the worst, it was goofy. It was difficult for us to see much danger in praying night and day. It has taken some research on our part, to fully grasp that we may be looking square on at the end times delusion spoken of, complete with false prophets and false teachers, and false signs and wonders. In my mind, I still don’t want to fully label it for what it probably is. I do appreciate those who are putting forth the effort in exposing this. May God give all of us words to speak.

  18. E

    Robert Brown
    I live in Wichita, which still has a few New Apostolic Reformation churches. Barbara Wentroble, Dutch Sheets, and Chuck Pierce (The three stooges) come through regularly. Thank God for the Message Of The Cross, which I now preach!

    We lived in both KC for many years, including attending Bickle’s church in its early days, and then lived in Denton, TX, where Chuck’s home church (Glory of Zion Outreach Center) is located. They do a big prophetic shindig at the UNT Coliseum every year or so, to give the Word for the New Year, or something like that.

  19. Speaking of Augustine Alcala

    I found interesting that in the 12pt. Prophetic History, Bickle jokes about how Alcala did not like hands laid on his head because he did not want his hair to be messed up.

    All musing aside, I’ve noted that Mike Bickle made this sober statement about Alcala:

    “The prophet, a bona-fide prophet that I will embrace with all my reputation…there’s a brother who lives in Pheonix, Arizona, who is a prophet that I will endorse. He’s the only one that I would speak and rest my entire reputation upon him. Because when you endorse a prophet, if the guy’s bad, you suffer the reproach, if he’s good, you get the blessing. You had better judge a prophet before you embrace him. It’s a sober thing.

    -Mike Bickle, 4-17-1983 “Blow the Trumpet in Zion”

    If what you have stated is true, does that mean – by his own words- Mike Bickle’s reputation is totally shot (his “entire reputation”) ?

  20. E

    I think that many of Mike Bickle’s pronouncements and statements over the years can be regarded as hyperbole. Unfortunately, they’re not presented that way, and I’m not sure Mr. Bickle sees them that way at the time he utters them.

    But one can hear “The greatest move of God this world has ever seen!” only so many times before one realizes that taking these things with a grain or dumptruck-size load of salt is in order.

    And after years of being told that “This is the generation!” while observing over time that nothing really changes year after year after year except the language or the bait used to keep the fish dangling on the hook or chasing after it, while leader after leader falls into immorality or error or is shuffled off the stage to make room for a new one, one can become a bit suspicious or cynical.

    And probably justifiably so.

  21. So, do we just take Jesus’ words, “you will know them by their fruits,” and just set those words aside? Those words have empowered me, more than anything else, to ditch these guys. More than the false prophecies. More than the scizophrenic theologies. More than the “shakin and bakin” on the floor. These “prophets” have fallen into immorality over and over again. I would be disobedient to the Lord to continue to place myself under their leadership.

  22. E

    Listen to the “Blow the Trumpet in Zion” message/tape that Mike Bickle gave in April 1983:

    http://www.archive.org/details/BlowTheTrumpetInZion-mikeBickle-April141983

    and you’ll hear the beginning of much of what has occurred ever since then and/or the nature of this thing.

  23. Yes, Bill, Auggie was very protective of his hair. When I worked with him in the late 70’s, he had a perm and carried a pick and bottle of water with him wherever he went. We both felt called to be Evangelists at that time and became friends. He really loved the Lord at this time, but many of us were young and wanted to be somebody and make our mark. Thus many young people like us, decided we were prophets, so we would get more attention and speaking engagements. I was a new Christian-he wasn’t.
    I have to tell you he was a very nice and lovable guy. I was used quite a bit in the prophetic gifts, so I was very surprised when he launched out on his own in a prophetic ministry. He didn’t have anyone to look after him or to be accountable to. He had a strong following in Charismania and lost his way. Popularity and Money snag many a Preacher. He got heavy into the Word-Faith/Money Gospel, and got involved with the wrong ministerial crowd. Sad story. The man hade amazing potential.

  24. E

    Well, I am a Jew…. 🙂

  25. Having just recently listened to “Blow the Trumpet in Zion,” the message that called for the solemn assembly mentioned in this story, I see that I was wrong in stating that both Mike and Bob Jones received a visitation from the angel, Gabriel. I want to acknowledge that this visitation was only given to Bob Jones. Mike’s verification for calling the solemn assembly was not via Gabriel.

  26. jarrod

    Thanx Julie.

  27. According to Pytches (“Some said it Thundered”), Bob Jones got the Daniel 9 revelation from Gabriel. Mike Bickle got it from the “internal audible voice” of the Lord.

    I’m not certain how an internal audible voice differs from an external audible voice; perhaps it is not audible but only seems so?

    Nonetheless, the story of Bob Jones confimation of Mike Bickle’s impression – as recounted in “Thundered” is quite amazing. How much stock should be placed in amazing comfirmations is open for discussion.

  28. Thank you so much for humbly sharing your testimony. It was refreshing to hear, and the tone of from which you spoke of. You were not attacking anyone, or accusing anyone, but simply sharing your concerns with some very solid facts and experiences.
    I, too, had once been rather impressed with Mike Bickle’s ministry and those who who associate with him. I first asked Christ to come and live in my heart and be my savior and king when I was eight years old, but pretty much walked away from him in the later years following until 1995 when I sensed the Holy Spirit washing me clean of my past, and renewing me within.
    I became involved with campus ministry at a state college in Northern Illinois. The pastor came from an Asembly of God background, which was totally new to me because growing up we went to a Baptist church. I believed that God was truly a God of miracles and had some experiences that could only be explained from scripture. I began to read books about the lives of people like Smith Wigglesworth, and Ken Hagin, and the Azuza Street Revival, and other ministers with that movement. Some friends of mine from another church with a AOG background, gave me CD’s from the worship ministry from Morning Star ministry, and also from the Kansas City Fellowship.
    It was interesting because I kept on meeting new people that were followers of it seemed the same thing — hungering for revival to return to America like it had once been.
    I did not think it could be wrong to want that, or pray for that…and the years following I made it my life’s focus. I was told by many that I had a prophetic calling and I tried to follow those who were called prophets by many leaders in conferences about prophetic ministry, spiritual warefare and so on, like Bob Jones, and others you did not mention.
    The campus ministry I served in came from a ministry called Maranatha ministries and the founder, Bob Weiner, was a follower of the Shepherding and Discipling movement in the 1970′s. That movement was bad enough, from hearing about the testimonies of broken lives, and so many traumitized people who were spiritually abused by men who condemned them if they did not listen to their “God designated” mouth-piece — usually a small group leader (their own personal pastor) who was part of a chain of command that led up to the central leader, usually a senior pastor. The pastor of this church I attended, which was really a campus ministry but called a campus church, was led by a man who served under Bob Weiner, and now appeared on the campus in 1990 telling young college students that God had led him there…as an answer to their prayers.
    Well, like most stories from those under that movement, what I expererienced was total mind control where young impressive people were told who to marry, where to live, what job to have, ect… And if you acted against their “counsel” then you were ostracised as rebellious and one who was listening to demons. I was there, sadly enough, for about 13 years before I saw the light so to speak, and sensed the Lord’s leadings out from there.
    What I saw there was people started to get ahold of teachings from Mike Bickle, and then some of the students began attending IHOP conferences, and later, some even have gone to their school of ministry there, and the one like it with Morningstar Ministries in South Carolina.
    What happened was that in one movement, everyone was told that the pastor was equal to the very voice of God, and now in this latest movement, it was the voice of a leader who spoke as a prophet. There has been a merging of those two movements into what today has given many Christians concerns — especially those with kids attending there or those who know someone’s kids attending at the conferences, or school of ministry.
    What is actually happening is a repackaged version of a movement that really birthed the two movements mentioned above. This movement is the latter rain movement that came about in 1948. The leaders of this movement promised of a coming revival where God would raise up an army like what the prophet Joel spoke of. They said that God would do this with raising up people with five-fold ministry gifts like mentioned in Eph. 4:11-12. They said these would be the leaders, or like generals of this movement.
    There were such heresy that was pawned off as “new revelation” in this movement that hundreds and thousands were deceived, and so it goes on today. In the 1990′s the new packaged version of this heresy started again. In fact, it was just a return of some of the bad doctrine taught to many people and they never turned away from it.
    We saw a return of this latter rain movement with conferences about the prophetic, and also the apostolic ministries. Certain men rose to fame with their books, and their public appearances teaching the same bad doctrine of 1948. That came under great concern for many Christians in the 1990′s as well. Then something started to evolve further — leaders like Mike Bickle and others began to say that it is the youth in this generation that will be God’s Army and anyone who join them.
    What had happened it seems from hearing your testimony, that Mike Bickle began with teaching on prayer, and soon became convinced like many others that God had chosen him as a general to raise up an end-time army for God, and now countless young people and others are taking this deception hook line and sinker.
    What I find is that people who really never had experienced the deep unconditional love of God, in their homes, or in general, flock to this brand of disception because all they know in their hearts is they must some how please God by giving their lives as a sacrifice to Him. And that is scary, because according to John 3:16 it is the other way around.
    It goes much deeper than Kansas City, and many other churches are networked together as well. I think after saying all this, that it is a perfect opportunity not to be discouraged or lose hope…but to cling to Christ who is the HOPE of GLORY and return to the truth of Christ who dwells within the believers heart and rules with mercy and justice from within…not without with men who seem intent on raising to power and commanding God’s people as if in an army.
    My hope and prayer is that God will bring people out of this religous disception, and back into living Christ-centered lives in which the LIVING GOD dwells within by grace through faith, and never builds an army. No, God’s desire is that Christ be formed in us, not for an army or organization be formed for Him.
    Thank you again for sharing your testimony. And may God Bless you richly in Christ Jesus.

  29. NOLR History

    Thanks for your comments on IHOP and sharing your experience with MCM. You state you were with MCM in Northern Illinois. When? I was with MCM in 1998.

    While in MCM, where you aware of the alliance network that was formed with the Kansas City Prophets when they were Grace Fellowship prior to 1990 and before MCM faked their break-up?

    I have copies of two versions of the MCM Statement of Covenant (pre-1982-1984 Maranatha Investigation). Did you take the MCM Covenant Oath?

    Were you aware at the time you were exposed to Joyner and MorningStar that the doctrines of Count von Zinzendorf were being re-packaged?

    While at MCM, did you read the Bill Britain prophecies that were being passed around?

    Have you considered the current situation with Eddie Long and how he has implimented the very same “Spiritual Sons” covenant with some of his congregants? Do you now see the doctrinal and practical connections between Bob and Rose Weiner, Earl Paulk, Eddie Long, Cindy Jacobs, Bill Hamon, Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, Brian Tamaki, C. Peter Wagner and his NAR/ICA “Apostolic/Prophetic” compound, etc.?

    In other words, in retrospect, do you now see the entire Latter Rain movement is never going to change it’s doctrines and practices because the root doctrines they were founded upon were occult from the beginning and an (ongoing) unsuccessful attempt has been made to merge occult doctrines with those of the Bible to form a hybrid Mormon-like religion?

    Can you now see how the Dominionism that Weiner used on us and was forced upon us through the clever religious scheme of Discipleship/Shepherding that was conjured up by the Fab 5 was an attempt to infiltrate the Republican Party in the political realm?

    1) Bob Mumford
    2) Derek Prince
    3) Don Basham
    4) Charles Simpson
    5) John “Ern” Baxter
    6) and over 20-more leaders whose names are found in the previously-suppressed document:
    http://www.seekgod.ca/gc.htm

    What do you see as positive solutions to warning the 10s of 1000s of youth that are now being indoctrinated into the very same movement we we once a part of since what we are now witnessing is simply a replay of the 70s, 80s, and 90s?

  30. Thanks for sharing all of that NOLR History! Some very good points you made. I would love to share with you more on these points. My email is: hishouseoflivingstones@ymail.com.

    Looking forward to answer your questions via email. Take care and God Bless!

  31. Ezza

    Hi, and Thanks for your well written and level-headed story.

    Many of us have gone through unfortunate, maybe even foolish experiences in churches, and yet still desire God, the way, the truth, knowing Jesus only is it, and yet we (the church) mess it up so much!

    In a recent Church History study I left feeling confused how messed up the church got, and so quickly. Yet I later learned in scriptures how this didn’t surprise God.

    Given your experience, I;d really like if you could spare the time to look at Steve & Kathy Gray’s ministering in Kansas City as Worldrevivalchurch.com
    I’ve been following this for a few years now and really have found renewal maybe even revival from their attitude and teaching.
    Being a “local” I’d be interested in what your perceptionis.

  32. Jim Morda

    I think all of you people who are playing the role of Holy Spirit and JUDGE should start your own churches so everyone who reads these articles can go to a perfect church and not one who makes mistakes. Even in biblical time people like David and Peter made mistakes but God still loved them for he looks at the heart not the outside like you all do. I make mistakes often and just get up and go on as the Holy Spirit directs. I feel like all you people are doing the work of satan by dividing the church instead of praying for the church. I am led by prayer not what I see people do, for if I did that I wouldn’t have any friends at all. Judge not lest ye also want to be judged. Let the Holy Spirit take care of things and you can better make use of your time taking the planks out of your eyes. Let God arise and His enemies will be scattered. Maybe that is why most of you left churches and moved on looking for the perfect ONE. We all can accomplish much more with prayer than our words.

  33. TimH

    Jim,
    Thank you for your rebuke! You just fell into the same camp by making a judgement about us. I just love it when folks just mouth off about others without actually addressing the problem that has been brought forth. False teaching whether you believe it true or not. How about giving a good debate and tell us why you think, scripturally, the things spoken here really were from God through the Holy Spirit, regarding the Kansas City Fellowship and the Mike Bickle Blueprint prophecy for the IHOP foundation.

  34. Jim,
    I have read you comment a number of times and wish to ask you: Is this directed at this particular post, which is a reconstruction of events that took place back in the 1980’s, or a general rebuke to the authors and commentators of this blog?

    If it’s the former, a retelling of actual events hardly falls under the category of “playing the Holy Spirit and judging” certain leaders and the churches they pastor.

    Do you understand the necessity to be a Berean, who “were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true?” (Acts 17:11) This has become more necessary today than ever because Jesus Himself warned that, there would be many false doctrines and false teachers and false prophets and false SIGNS at the end of the age. In fact, the very presence of these persons and the signs that accompany them would be a true sign that His return was soon.

    So, I agree with Tim and many other commentators on this and many other blogs. Please address the grievances raised here regarding false teaching with Berean-type study. Also, see if what is being preached to you, wherever you are attending, and by whomever you listen to, is true.

    Julie
    P.S. I wish to add one more thing. Examine the fruit in the lives of not only the preachers/teachers/prophets in this movement, but also the fruit being borne in the persons who adhere to these doctrines. IHOP in Kansas City has been hemoraging disillusioned and disaffected youth on an ongoing basis for 20+ years now. Many of them are no longer walking with the Lord. This is not good fruit. My knowledge of this is not hearsay. I know this firsthand. I wish you well in your pursuit of the truth.

  35. Jeremiah

    Hmmmmm, fascinating reading and very helpful. Thank you all for the thoughtful, historical and genuinely insightful posts. I like very much the following conclusion stated by ekklesia08:

    “My hope and prayer is that God will bring people out of this religous deception, and back into living Christ-centered lives in which the LIVING GOD dwells within by grace through faith, and never builds an army. No, God’s desire is that Christ be formed in us, not for an army or organization be formed for Him.
    Thank you again for sharing your testimony. And may God Bless you richly in Christ Jesus.”

    Religious deception of any kind is certainly harmful and leads only to heart ache and confusion. Through anyone’s spiritual journey is the prospect of blind alleys leading nowhere, false paradigms plunging one into the pit of disillusionment and unmet expectations, and a sense of being duped by someone we believed in and followed. Thank God He gives us a lifetime to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

    Somewhere along the line we are presented with the question by Him, “do you love Me with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind?” and more than that, “have you learned to love others as you love yourself?” Everything else is secondary.

    The men on the road to Emmaus with Jesus had the privilege of having Him unpack the scriptures concerning Himself even though their eyes were initially blinded, but when Jesus broke the bread, blessed it and gave it to them their eyes were opened and they said, ‘did not our hearts burn within us while He was explaining the scriptures to us?’ That story seems to me to be a lifetime journey of learning to walk with Jesus. I certainly haven’t mastered it in my 50+ years on this earth. I’ve had plenty of heart ache along the way, both pentecostal stew and evangelical hard liners. But I have learned that ultimately I will stand before Him without anyone else beside me and we will review my life. That is a sobering prospect. There will be no justifications about who was right and who was wrong, because Jesus won’t include anyone else but me in our conversation. He’ll have His own conversation with ‘them’ when it is their time to stand before Him.

    I recently returned from the One Thing Conference in KC. It was perhaps my 4th or 5th visit in 14 years. I came away with a profound sense of heaviness concerning my attitude toward my conservative evangelical pastor of 20 years. And I was moved to ask his forgiveness for not honoring him these past few years the way that I ought. The prospect of repentance and forgiveness was brought home to me at the conference. I know we each have different experiences and encounters with different parts of the church and I certainly recognize and respect your conclusions concerning IHOP. I simply felt it might be useful to share mine.

  36. Daniel

    google bob jones; and his having women be in the nude, to give them a prophetic word. or his going up to the heavenly relm seeing ‘jesus’……….Ep. 6:12 we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but………………….and spirits of wickness in the heavenly relm.
    sidenote: wickness is 98% true; 2% false …satan comes as a angle of light ….ie he tries and look like Jesus…….
    John Wimber make them change their name from a Vineyard for their bad words; yes, sexual sins, yes, not preaching/practicing the full gospel yes……….
    Andrew Strom from New Z. calls what they operation in a Kunula (sp?) spirit. it is a false Holy spirit…..samething as the Budish, & Ind. religions use
    Rev. tells us of the Jeb. spirit. was a person tapping into both Godly / satanism at sametime…
    Unless Kanas city people repent, they aren’t going to heaven.
    ASK JESUS: Matt 25 there are 10 virgins (sold out ‘church persons’) only 5 make it to the wedding feast (heaven). here Jesus states 50% of the church isn’t going to heaven.
    Jesus stated unless we become as children we won’t see the kingdom of heaven; mircles, healing delv. raising the dead happening at KS……….NOT
    dial a 900 or 976 # they can read your ‘mail’ give you a prophetic word and do as well as KS does. In Mos, day the magical persons could do some mircles, yet not same as Mos’s God. KS is on the same level as the world’s prophetic words……………proves they aren’t from God.
    most of them were on the stage with Todd Benley; yet not one of them had a word from God; about Benley’s sin…………. if they are prophets why were they sending their people to Todd, up to the day of knowing what Todd was doing.
    Ric, J. is a part of the secret order group………google him
    most of the elijah list is of the ‘latter rain’ /satanism; angels of lite to led you wrong…….
    you got the Holy Spirit ? you read the bible daily………you a child of God; is God your Father, then listen to the Holy Spirit yourself, in the boundies of the word of God; then 1/2 of these false teachers wouldn’t have students.
    would you let your child be taught by satan…….NO……yet you don’t leave these false teachers, whom you listen to, then teach your kids……………..
    satan temp. Jesus; he eve n used the word of God (ps 91); religion leaders try and use word of God to trap Jesus…………satan is using ‘the church’ /KS to trap persons today………..think what if when they ask Jesus doesn’t the law of Mos, state …..and then Jesus agreed with them…………….==His fall……….you don’t have to agree with someone cause they are leaders quoting bible….

  37. george

    There is no perfect organization, church, individuals and that means even the prophecies are not perfect which is why the apostle Paul told us to judge prophecies but not to exclude those prophets or even run out of those churches. Have you studied the prophecies about Christ? The whole schema is right but not all the details seem clear!

  38. exile

    Interesting post. I am from Kansas City and became a Christian at a Phil Keaggy concert at the Music Hall in 1982. Because I came from a background of drug abuse and was born with cerebral palsy, some people tried to drag me to Mike Bikle’s church. One session was all it took to convince me that the man (and others like him) were nutcases of the highest order. I have now been a Christian for thirty years, and have been married for twelve years to a wonderful woman who worked for Campus Crusade for twenty-five years. Thank goodness for the training I received in Navigators in college and for several men who were faithful to the Word of God as ordinary preachers, not “prophets”. Sound doctrine and adherence to the Word of God is so important, in order not to be taken in by false teachers, be they “charismatics” or just those from mainline denominations who would try to convince us (in a much less dramatic way) that the Bible is not the Word of God, and that it cannot be understood by the average man or women who is born again and seeks to follow God as best they can in the simple tasks of daily life. Praise God for His mercy in making his Word plain to me, and to others who love Him. His Word is not alwyays pleasant to us, but it is discerned without any special “annointing”, apart from the Holy Spirit, which is given to all who believe. God bless!

  39. exile

    I would also like to add that I was shocked and saddened to see that Mike Bickle not only remains in ministry but has apparently gained strength over the years. Why God permits this sort of thing to occur, I will never understand? When so many good men who are faithful to the Word of God go through trials and / or leave the ministry, why do deceivers like this prosper? (Matthew 13:24-30). I guess it is a reminder of how important it is to hold on to the truth that we received when we first came to know Christ as Savior and Lord, and not to fall away, or get mired in strange teachings. (1 Timothy 4:16, Philippians 3:16).

    Some might say that I am judging Mr. Bickle and others like him, but that is not the case. By saying these things, I am not judging his heart, but simply saying (as Julie has previously stated), that Mr. Bickle’s “ministry” has not borne good fruit. While we as believers are not called to judge others, I believe that we are called to test the fruit of their lives, lest we fall into the same sins.

  40. Fd1963

    Just this morning I had a friend tell me that she attended an IHOP event in the summer and she wants me to go to the next one with her! We are in Canada but I listen to a number of American Christian radio personalities via Podcasts & had heard plenty of commentaries about the IHOP movement & their shenanigans. But I needed to renew my strong feelings about IHOP before talking to her again and happened upon this website, praise the Lord! I feel that the testimonies here will be a good start for me in trying to convince my friend that she is being mislead & to help open her eyes. Thanks to all of you for your willingness to share your stories .
    Many Blessings!

  41. @FD1963

    I think one thing that hasn’t been throughly studied is the hypnotic mind control that goes on in these meetings. I think this is how people get caught up in the emotion of the meeting and are open to anything taught there. (Critical thinking goes out the window)

    I recently saw this video from a Call event that shows what I’m refering to:

    Notice the music that mimics the heart beating, Misty Edwards leading everyone in chanting and people shaking their heads…. these are all hypnosis techniques. The trance state that you are in through these means causes critical thinking to go out the window.

  42. Mercy

    Julie, thank you so much. This is truly excellent, and has the potential to rescue others. Thank you so much for clinging to the cross through a torrent of loss and rejection. I honor you and your husband greatly.

  43. Kim

    Reblogged this on DiscernIt and commented:
    Another Testimony about IHOP….

  44. Pingback: KC-IHOP Mike Bickle … FORMER I-HOP INTERN MURDERED BY ‘PRAYER’ LEADER HUSBAND « Ezekielcountdown's Weblog

  45. Bonnie

    Wow Julie, congrats, you gaining quite a few followers!

  46. Dear Julie, thank you so much for your insightful testimony! I plan on sharing it with my daughter right away. She has been connected to IHOP and its 24-hour prayer room for 8 years now! We’ve prayed that God would keep a hedge of protection around her mind. IHOP is, indeed, nothing but a cult, as subtle as the snake in the garden of Eden! I’ve been telling her for years that IHOP is a cult: the manifestations of cult-like activity are everywhere. Please join me in praying that the spiritual blinders would, once and for all, be removed from her eyes and her heart and that she would break free from IHOP’s satanic control! <

  47. loveyourneighbour

    So sad to see a discussion that is so man centered, hardly any mention of Christ, although the men you accuse as false constantly talk about a concreted relationship to the Lord. The bible clearly tells us to pray for our enemies, not to call them “nutcases”

  48. exile

    A dear friend of my wife recently watched her daughter become ensnared by IHOP, and now the daughter has cut off all contact with her wonderful, godly parents. Who cares whether IHOP claims a relationship with God or not? Their doctrine, as well as the poison fruit of their ministry speak loud and clear.

  49. Pingback: IHOP: A Case for Corruption - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

  50. arendale

    Hi, Julie. Thanks for this article. There are many others who’re starting to see IHOP and similar groups for what’s beneath the surface. I had a similar experience at the Atlanta Vineyard where I had the two worst years of my life. I didn’t know how negatively affected I was until years after I left. My older brother told me from the start that the Vineyard churches were false, apostate, whatever you want to call it. I just thought he was a party pooper; but two years after I left, the evidence began to surface, and I learned that everything he said about these types of churches was true much to my disappointment.

    You wrote: “It has taken some research on our part, to fully grasp that we may be looking square on at the end times delusion spoken of, complete with false prophets and false teachers, and false signs and wonders.” That’s actually exactly what these NAR-IHOP styled churches and ministries are being used to bring in, but it would take someone who is knowledgeable about it to explain it so that it makes perfect sense. I was actually sent to the Atlanta Vineyard to become part of the whole end-times delusion and take part in those lying signs and wonders (I know it sounds weird, but that’s where a knowledgeable someone could make sense of all of it). The NAR-IHOP styled churches and ministries were actually purposely planned– not by people like Bickle and Wimber but by others who are using them and others like Rick Joyner, Jill Austin, Cindy Jacobs, etc., as puppets to misguide and deceive Christians away from the real Jesus so that when they unwittingly bring in an anti-Christ religion, there will be no real religion to oppose the enemy’s reign or influence over the churches (and the people). It’s very cunning and well-planned, but it proves that we do have an enemy who isn’t only wise but who also has been working out his plans against the Church for a long time. I hope and your family come to understand this thing on a larger scale so that everything makes perfect sense and so you can better alert others.

  51. Sam

    Thank you for spelling things out so clearly. I know someone who accepted an internship there and that got me digging. I’m concerned about this experience as an intern. Do you have any insight into the internship program.

  52. mrsmariposa2014

    My former church in Wichita has ties to IHOP/NAR and esp to Todd Bentley. As bells first went off in my head after Mr Bentley spoke at our church, I began digging. Because I didn’t have internet for years, my only info on him was what our pastor told us, which was precious little save don’t condemn the Lord’s anointed, so imagine my shock as I read what had transpired in Lakeland and thereafter! And, from there, it was like pulling a thread and unraveling the sweater-the one that had been over my eyes for most of my thirty-six years growing up in the charismatic movement. It was crushing to see that the church I loved as family is so deceived. It was disturbing to see how so much and so many ministries have been linked by bad theology and how rotten fruit has begat rotten fruit for so long. In my experience, I was shy and felt much condemned albeit subtly for not being a more vocal (read loud and manic) member of the church. I always felt I wasn’t “spiritual” enough as I sat back and prayed quietly. I always thought there was something wrong with me and that God surely must be disappointed I wasn’t rolling on the floors and chattering in tongues. It wasn’t until I was forced to face the secret questions I had always had that I saw it wasn’t me that was the issue, that God DID love me as I was, and that He had actually protected me from so much. I am now at a church founded on the Word, rather than the words of men, and ever vigilant about the importance of checking what is said against scripture, grateful He gave me a”’digging” nature.Thank you for sharing your story. I don’t see it as judging but rather as alerting. It is an important, much neglected part of loving your neighbor in these”anything goes” days. I pray for my old church a lot as well as all who are in deception. God bless!

  53. exile

    Amen. Could not have said it better!

  54. mrsmariposa2014

    Thanks,exile. I am the bare beginnings (read free, the only one in my current budget) blog on my experience. I see all this has been in discussion much longer than I ever knew,so, at first, my shy self hesitated to add my two cents, but, then, I had the thought that it must continue to be discussed for the likes of people searching as I have been.

  55. mrsmariposa2014

    Oops. That should read I am ” AT the bare beginnings”. I love to write but when I get in a hurry I sometimes leave out little words.

  56. Arendale

    Sam, were you talking to me when you asked about an internship? If you were, I don’t know about internships at the Vineyard; I just without doubt that they are evil places to be spiritually. That doesn’t mean the people are evil but that what the churches are founded on is. IHOP and basically every Charismatic church (especially the bigger ones) are all thoroughly infiltrated with ‘another gospel’ that sounds like Jesus but upon close look is not.

    I recall one night at a cell group meeting where they were talking about this prophet called John Paul Jackson who told them to close their eyes and try to perceive each person who passed in front of them; a prophetic exercise, Jackson called it. An older lady named Mary spoke up and said she didn’t believe it was of God (more like divination of some kind, I don’t know). They blasted her, but I agreed. She and I were in the minority, and she never returned after they let her have it. They were nicer to me because I was still a teen so that meant I was cool. I believe that as people’s eyes are opened to the fact that these churches have been infiltrated by (i.e. taken over, under the purposeful and conscious control of) ‘non-Christians’, the failings and confusion in the average Charismatic church will begin to make perfect sense.

  57. The contrast between what young people I know are pursuing and what young people are pursuing at IHOP is dramatic. I am looking at revival every time I watch these young people “fall in love” with Yeshua.
    Also, regarding the “passion” for Yeshua, please don’t overlook that in the Song of all Songs He is described in a sexual way. Look at how the Rabbis talk about this. Sexualing the relationship is not sensualizing it. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying, “We have a sexual relationship with Jesus”. Please.
    I’m saying that sex as we in our Greek and post modern society describe it is filthy. It is not filthy to God. It is an expression of oneness.
    I also think that a movement that is new, this 24/7 prayer movement, is going to be tough to navigate. No one had ever done this before. We are all learning that, to be 100% in every movement , we still have to step back and cling to the word and to the Voice of the Lord. It’s like driving a very expensive car…like a Mazarati and knowing that if you drive very quickly and wrecklessly, you will wreck a very expensive vehicle. The way you drive does not make this a cheap car. Shalom!

  58. exile

    handmaiden4him (?)

    I don’t believe you are grasping the nature of Mike Bickell’s teaching, the point of this blog post or the spiritual danger in which you find yourself. Get a clue!

    exile

  59. Gary Sellars

    I have some questions. Which is more important–loving and praying (in love) for Bickle and his group or telling everyone how screwy they are because, as “good stewards” we want to make sure everyone stays away from the wackos?

    I think the answer is so obvious the question doesn’t need to even be raised, but as I see what’s written on this page and others about IHOP, I wonder why so many Christians think they’re actually helping God and everyone to bash other Christians as screwy, flaky, deceived, etc., and I can’t see where that’s the way to minister to or for others.

    Now, that’s not to say it’s wrong to bring correction, instruction or to tell someone there wrong, but does our Bible tell us to tell others or to go privately to the one needing instruction. How would I want to be treated?

    Does badmouthing a group for years on a website specifically dedicated for that purpose really sound like anything in Scripture or the love of God to which we can point and say, “I’m doing this because of love”?

  60. D

    Both can be done, there is not a dichotomy between praying for IHOP and warning people away from it. Same principle as making something, like a building, safe, while warning people not to walk into it while it’s being fixed or they risk getting severely hurt, because they’re unaware of the need for repair or their inability to understand what’s going on. ‘Caution’ and ‘Hazard’ signs aren’t being judgmental or unloving; they’re the exact opposite! And, to use your point about bringing correction, when a leader has been approached privately, and still refuses to listen to the correction, do we just ‘do the loving thing,’ drop it, and hope it all gets better? There is no other service, job or industry in the entire world where any sane person would suggest that that course of action- i.e. do nothing because the leader won’t change and it’s all up to God- is the correct end of the matter. Actually, at that point, Jesus said ‘tell it to the church.’ The loving thing is not to let a person remain in error, and not to encourage the leading of others into error, especially errors of such magnitude as mishandling/misinterpreting Scripture, teaching for doctrine the commands of men, and spreading false doctrine and encouraging false practice throughout the entire Body of Christ, something that has been going on since this place’s inception.
    What it really boils down to is that a lot of people like the music and the style, it’s fun and comfortable, and they feel okay with it, so why really see if the emperor has no clothes on? That would involve questions, and doing what the Bible says (‘Test everything. Hold fast to that which is good.’) and that involves work and study, something plenty of people in our ‘give me’ culture won’t do, especially if it conflicts with where they’ve already decided to settle. But I’ve watched this movement for awhile- they came to my old church and brazenly told the senior pastor he was supposed to leave the current denomination and become a HOP- which he didn’t buy for a minute. And the musicians were top-notch, I’ve never heard anything like it before or since outside of 20th century classical concerts. Accepting their beliefs and practices, even in limited scope, drove people away from the Sunday night services. Plenty I could say I’ve said elsewhere on this forum.

  61. Arendale

    I’ve traveled around America since 2003 a great deal. I see the same thing repeated in basically every Christian circle in differing measures. What do we need at this moment in history? What does the world need even if Christians don’t want it? We need revival– a genuine awakening from Heaven. I watched this video about the Azusa Street Revival of 1906 two days ago and cannot help but agree that a genuine move of God (not another Pensacola/Brownsville, Toronto Airport fiasco where satan makes fools of people whom God loves) is the only solution for the madness that has overtaken America. We need fire over America.

  62. Gary Sellars

    I think you’re failing to rightly divide the Word. You quote the Word but to whom was what you’re quoting written and to whom does it apply.

    I challenge you to find a Scripture in the NT that tells the sheep to correct the shepherd. Paul wrote to Timothy (the bishop) about dealing with elders and Jesus’ reference of “tell it to the church was about brother to brother.

    Beware the Lord’s judgment on you if you presume to judge where He thinks He’s responsible.

    A word to the wise.

  63. Arendale

    Excuse me for breaking in here, but who are the sheep, and who is the shepherd? The Bible, after telling wife to submit to husband and servants to submit to bosses, says, “Indeed, all of you submit to one another.” A pastor is a brother to a sheep just as a sheep is a brother to a sheep. If a sheep catches a pastor in a sin, he has caught a brother in a sin. Jesus didn’t explain everything He was saying; the apostles later expounded on unfinished things that He said such as the meaning of Love and hatred/murder (John in 1Jn.) and how to address a ‘brother’ caught in sin (Paul in Gal. 6).

    Jesus also said to the apostles who were debating who would be greatest (or great) in God’s Kingdom, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.” In Lk. 22, He says it this way:

    “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.”

    Jesus plains says that He was the greatest but was among them as the least– that they should also have the same mind. He is talking to ministers here, not sheep; therefore, the greater responsibility to receive a correction is on ministers, not on sheep. In especially the above passage, Jesus shatters the notion that there is a ‘class system’ in the church where some are greater and some are less. Rather, while there are different types of ministers in the churches (because every Christian is supposed to be a minister to some degree), the greater ministers are actually supposed to be more humble. What am I saying? Simple: the pastors, ministers, and ‘important people’ are supposed to be the most willing to receive a rebuke or correction no matter who it comes from. Jesus rebuked satan in Peter, not because Peter rebuked Him but because Peter was wrong for rebuking Him to turn Him away from God’s will. In light of the real evidence and the proper division of the Word, do you really believe that there in ‘a division between classes’ of pastors vs. sheep, that pastors can correct or rebuke sheep, but sheep can never rightly correct or rebuke pastors? Such doctrine gives way to ministers who are ‘above the law’ and sheep who are vulnerable to the control and bondage of any minister who decides to lord his authority over them.

    Finally, regarding the sin and rebuke clause, Paul expounds on Jesus’ original teaching in Gal. 6:1, saying, “Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.” Many words in that sentence are qualifiers that the sentence to EVERYONE, not just sheep or shepherds: “a man… ANY trespass… such a one.” Both pastors and sheep can trespass and be caught in it. How to respond? “You who are spiritual, restore such a one.” Employ your mind here please: “You who are spiritual” is not talking about pastors and elders; it is talking about those who are spiritually mature. Sheep are not disqualified from maturity nor are pastors (today, though they had to be back then) necessarily spiritual (mature). Both the elder and the sheep who helps to restore a sinning brother (pastor or sheep) must consider themselves so they aren’t tempted. Temptation comes to sheep and pastors alike.

  64. exile

    I saw an article on Facebook recently discussing the fact that church youth groups are increasingly appealing to the emotions of impressionable youth rather than using the Word to appeal to youth’s reason and logic. (Certainly God is capable of using our emotions to appeal to our reason, he gave us our emotions after all.) As a result when hard times come in their walk with Christ, youth who depend on an emotional high to sustain their relationship with the Lord fail or quit the Christian life entirely. I am not blaming these sincere youth for the problem, I experience discouragement myself many times, as did the Psalmist. What I am saying is that even established, biblical fellowships appeal to the emotion of youth too often, many times doing irreparable harm without meaning to. However, when an obviously misguided group like IHOP uses emotion to manipulate, deceive and ultimately to control sincere impressionable youth who want only to be obedient to Christ, they are showing themselves to be not shepherds, or even sheep, but rather, wolves. Let’s stop showing deference or respect for such men, but rather speak the truth. That, I believe is what the early apostles and disciples would have done, and in fact did do in such cases. Anything else is denial and enablement. And on the subject of the purpose of this blog, I for one feel that it should continue until such men are no longer permitted to deceive the body of Christ for their own nefarious ends.

  65. Arendale

    Agreed. In my travels around America, I have to say that the whole building of Christianity has fallen to the ground. It is all askew and misaligned, therefore, it rarely has any power to change, heal, or transform anyone. We need genuine revival and reformation which will probably not come until America is thrown into a very great national crisis that drives Christians to their knees to seek God.

  66. Gary Sellars

    I told you plainly that you weren’t rightly dividing the Word. Your response was to lie: “The Bible, after telling wife to submit to husband and servants to submit to bosses…” You don’t even have the integrity to represent the Word accurately. It wasn’t “after,” it was before, but you’re such a dishonest, rebellious novice, that you either don’t care what it says (and means) or you deliberately lie. The Bible tells the men to submit to one another and *then* tells the wife to submit to her own husband. You don’t fear God enough to even pay attention.

  67. exile

    Gary, the question comes to mind, what do you possibly have to gain from defending a man like Mike Bickle?

  68. Gary Sellars

    None of your many words EVER addressed the issue I raised, though you pretended they did. Yet, they DID NOT.

    I don’t think you’re deliberately lying: I think you’re under judgment for past rebellion and your eyes are blind to the truth. I think you need to fear and humble yourself, but you think everyone needs to hear your supposed righteous judgment, of those, about whom YOU FAILED to give Scripture that shows you have the authority or privilege to judge.

    I NEVER asked you who should submit to whom. My words were not obtuse or confusing, yet you never addressed any of them but spewed empty words of subterfuge to obfuscate the issue. If you deceive and confuse and mislead everyone, what have you gained? A sense of self-importance? Paul said, “For it is not he who commends himself who is approved, but whom the Lord commends.”

    Let’s try this again. In four places in your Bible it says, “let every fact be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses.”

    I only asked you for one, which by the testimony of Moses (Deut 17:6, 19:15), Jesus (Matt 18:16) and Paul (2Cor 13:1), is insufficient, but you didn’t even do that. So, I’ll ask you for the full requirement. Give me “two or three” witnesses, NOT who should submit to one another, but that authorize YOU to correct the one over you in authority.

    How about paying attention to the question this time and giving a germane answer, instead of telling me that the pastor should submit to you. I agree with all the Scriptures you referenced, but not the LIE you told about the order of Paul’s instructions in Eph 5. Vs 21 is BEFORE vs 22, not after it as you deceitfully claimed (but of course, will now claim was an “innocent mistake”).

    I’ll be waiting a long time, because you won’t find them to present them because they’re simply not there–ANYWHERE. Submission is voluntary and in love. Obedience is mandatory and commanded by Jesus, but, if you want to be contentious, you can twist those to “prove” I’m wrong, but the “hearing ear” understands.

    Do what you want; you’re the one who will pay the consequences, just like you are now, cut off from rich fellowship with your Father and the Lord Jesus. You won’t admit it but you know I’m telling the truth.

    Here’s a link think speaks of you: http://www.spreaker.com/user/propheticnow/morning-light-february-27th-2015

    I pray that you recognize your need to quit exalting your own imagined importance.when you’re not listening to the Lord. Without Him, we don’t get it right and rebellion against authority (even when they’re WRONG) is not your privilege, UNLESS you can show me the “two or three witnesses” that I’ve never been able to find.

    If you think you have, please read the question again, before you submit more non-answers.

  69. Gary Sellars

    “Employ your mind here please: “You who are spiritual” is not talking about pastors and elders; it is talking about those who are spiritually mature. Sheep are not disqualified from maturity nor are pastors (today, though they had to be back then) necessarily spiritual (mature).”

    How about you employ your mind and recognize the difference between “restore” which represents spiritual maturity, authority and wisdom and “correction” of one in authority over you, AGAIN, which YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO FIND IN EITHER TESTAMENT.

    Now, your ability to compose reveals you’re quite capable to understand this, you’ve simply REFUSED to do so. How about showing enough integrity to acknowledge that you can see the difference between my points and your non-answers.

    Again, you’re right-on about your non answers. Jesus said that the Gentiles lord it over men but is shall not be so among you. To whom was he speaking–the leaders or the followers? He was talking to the men who would be the leaders, telling them not to lord it over others. He NEVER told the followers to “tell the leaders Jesus told them to submit to you.”

    On the contrary, Jesus said, “The Pharisees have seated themselves in Moses’ seat, therefore, tell ’em where they’re wrong.” OOPS. That’s not what He said, is it? This is the point you’ve very deliberately ignored and used deceitful words to pretend you can’t see it. But, there is no one more wrong than those who murdered Jesus, yet how did the Master tell His followers to deal with the Pharisees? Did he say, “Since you’re My servants and are obviously more spiritual then the Pharisees who are going to have Me murdered, you straighten them out.”

    No, in fact, had He said anything like that, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN YOUR ANSWER TO ME! But, you knew you can’t find that in the Scriptures so you thought a little deceit would be in order because you prefer one-upmanship to humility, confession and repentance.

    That’s what’s in order here.

  70. Gary Sellars

    “Gary, the question comes to mind, what do you possibly have to gain from defending a man like Mike Bickle?”

    More deceit and subterfuge. Where did I mention Mike Bickle or defend him? If that’s the extent of your reading comprehension, you need to spend a few hours meditating before you “answer” someone.

    OK, you’re too thick to get that. Let me say it this way.

    I DID NOT DEFEND MIKE BICKLE. I DID NOT MENTION MIKE BICKLE.
    Does that help?

    Now, why don’t you look at the guy in the mirror and rebuke him and say, “Be honest and tell yourself the truth.” He spoke only of spiritual principles in the Word of God. He didn’t address ANY SPECIFICS of ANY leader.

    If this is too difficult for you to understand, you’re in trouble.

  71. Gary Sellars

    exile, let me share with you the same NEEDED message: http://www.spreaker.com/user/propheticnow/morning-light-february-27th-2015

  72. Gary Sellars

    exile, after (or while) you’re listening to the link, entertain the idea that your rebellion, judgment and pride have something to do with your discouragement. I also encourage you to download the message and play it on your computer on “Repeat” because you are definitely not going to “get it” sufficiently in one or two listenings. It’s our nature to exalt ourselves, deceive ourselves and find fault with others. I’ve been in this 43 years and I’ve never seen leaders NOT miss it, but your ability to be kind, loyal, loving and forgiving are signs of your maturity that God will bless.

    This is not rocket science. This message, that you obviously haven’t found as important to backbiting Mike Bickle, is the one in your Bible and is the basis of promotion. Keep on missing it and you’ll keep on failing.

  73. exile

    Gary, I’ll ask you again, what do you gain from defending Mike Bickle? This blog was begun specifically to draw attention to error in Mike Bickle’ s ministry which adversely effects many people’s lives. As I have said before, I have both witnessed this in person and am currently witnessing it in the lives of the family of one my wife’s closest friends and colleagues. So, in light of that, all your pseudo-biblical blathering means exactly zero. Since you feel so free to accuse others of sin, I will ask you as well, by defending Mike Bickle (and no, I don’t care that you did not mention him by name, the result is the same) what sin are you (trying) to hide in your own life?

  74. Gary Sellars

    “Gary, I’ll ask you again, what do you gain from defending Mike Bickle?”
    Forgive me, I didn’t realize you were mentally deficient and someone else was typing for you. Ask them to very patiently explain these words to you:

    I DID NOT DEFEND MIKE BICKLE. I DID NOT MENTION MIKE BICKLE.
    Then, ask them to click on this link for you since, undoubtedly, that’s too much of a task for you also:
    http://www.spreaker.com/user/propheticnow/morning-light-february-27th-2015. Your problem is with God’s Word, not Mike Bickle. You’re in trouble and apparently, you’re intent on reaping the judgment for which you’re headed.

    Now, as I said, I’m sorry for your handicap, but I’m not graced to deal with imbeciles and liars, so play stupid with someone else. If you refuse to deal with reality, I will ignore you.

  75. Gary Sellars

    exile. Wow, what an exact name. “So, in light of that, all your pseudo-biblical blathering means exactly zero.” Show me, with the holy word of God, which you don’t have enough fear of God to believe, *exactly*, with the requisite “two or three witnesses” where I erred. You presumptuous, arrogant and lying twit, you CANNOT do it.

  76. exile

    You keep saying that you are not referring to Mike Bickle in any way. Since the point of this blog is to bring to light the deceitful practices of both Mike Bickle and IHOP, I have to then ask you, why are you even here in the first place? In any case, regardless of your purpose and motivation, I am done with you.

  77. Arendale

    Sorry, Gary, it’s a Friday night. I was going to respond to one of your comments till I saw you’d posted a great deal of them. I believe that, whether or not you’re aware of it, what I said made you feel that your ‘intelligence’ was challenged. The last thing you can call me is a liar or dishonest person. Read 1Pet. 3:1-9. The Bible, especially the NT, makes it clear that Christians are to humble ourselves to each other– whether we are businessmen or pastors or laypeople or homeless. We all are regarded equally in Christ. That’s really the end of the matter. If you need the Bible to spell everything out, I can give you an endless list of what it doesn’t spell out. If we are supposed to live by what the Bible specifically says, then the whole world is in trouble, and many sins (like pedophilia which the Bible never addresses, though it’s always been a humanity problem, not even in Deut. 27) are a-okay with God. Learn to note the principle of a thing rather than being stuck on what is specifically written. Just like most communication is non-verbal but non-verbal communication still relays the message, so in the Bible, most of what God says is not written on the surface of the Pages but still relays the message. Goodnight.

  78. Gary Sellars

    How appalling is your temerity! You enjoin me to read 1Pet, which says clearly, “let all be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; not returning evil for evil, or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing.” and in diametric opposition to those words is your presence on this page, showing, by example, everything contrary to that injunction. You are the classic hypocrite.

    “What I said made you feel that your ‘intelligence’ was challenged.”

    That’s laughably dishonest and deceitful and you don’t believe it for one moment. It just illustrates the degree liars will go to to obfuscate when they get caught lying for violating clear Scriptural instructions.

    Am I calling you a liar? Absolutely. Make no mistake. I have challenged your deceit, dishonesty, presumptuous and pretentious claims, both that you you’re looking for a “genuine revival and reformation,” when THE TRUTH is that your purpose on this blog is to denigrate, not only Bickle and IHOP (where you’ve got no place or business), but you’re also here to assault the supernatural aspect of the ministry of God’s precious Spirit, blaspheming HIM, under a pretense of “attacking error.”

    You’re what I have called for 42 years an “unbelieving believer,” who hides ungodly and unscriptural attacks on God’s children and God’s move behind pseudo-spirituality and lies of pretense that your ungodly behavior is acceptable, approved by God and Scriptural when it is NONE of those things.

    So, please, show a modicum of honor (as difficult as that is), and quit attempting to hide your contempt for the ministry of God’s Spirit and your love of backbiting judgment and gossip behind a totally fallacious claim of Scriptural authority. You have no authority for anything you’ve said on this page. Every bit of it flies in the face of specific Scriptures commanding you to not do what you’re doing.

    Nothing you’ve done on this page was done on biblical grounds; they are actually grounds of gossip and bitterness, which are decidedly unbiblical and transparently dishonest and ungodly.

    It cannot escape anyone’s notice (who walks in the light of Holy Writ) that you’re a lying hypocrite. Mike and IHOP have been vilified for years. That this is very plain, without debate and all over the Internet and is proven by searching “Mike Bickle IHOP” and Google’s autofill with place “cult” as the next word, so your “piling on” says more about your refusal to obey Christ’s command to forgive OR seek resolution according to Scripture than any pretentious claim that you’re “warning the innocent and naive” when the attacks have already been so plentiful over the years that the search engine alerts people before they ever even get to a webpage.

    From my point of view, this has absolutely nothing to do with Mike Bickle. He’s been metaphorically tarred and feathered, judged and condemned and if all the dirty laundry you gossips have shared is true, he’s deserved it, but according to your Bible, God is the Judge and you are unable to show how your backstabbing and gossip is warranted, defended or justified with the requisite “two or three witnesses” prescribed by Moses and confirmed by Jesus and Paul.

    Now, that’s too clear to misunderstand but liars and deceivers don’t let the demands of God’s holy Word get in the way of their gossip, now, do they?

    If you carnal unbelievers would obey the Lord yourself, lay down your life and taken up your cross, your words wouldn’t be third party gossip spreading slander and gossip about your brethren (and throwing in an attack on the ministry of the Spirit for good measure) on a public forum.

    You want to hide behind a feigned approval of Azusa but those with knowledge would confirm that every move of God’s fire is also accompanied by wildfire, error and sin because that’s what the devil does regardless of your inability to consider Ananias and Sapphira’s sin where Peter was in authority and the sin of the Corinthian who was sleeping with his father’s wife. It’s the purpose of leadership to deal with the problems and I have clearly challenged you to illustrate, with accurate and honest use of God’s HOLY WORD the justification for your unscriptural and ungodly backbiting and pretentious and presumptuous attack on authorities where you are unqualified and unauthorized and you have not done it because you can’t.

    So far, your response has been obfuscation, dishonesty, deceit and personal attacks on me for rightly dividing the Word of truth.

    I expect nothing better from you for the level of repentance you need is simply too great and you’re not even close. That’s why this is my last post to you unless you fabricate a pretense so Machiavellian that I feel the need to expose your deceit. Otherwise, I think your dishonor is evident to all who may have been heretofore deceived by your pompous pretenses.

  79. Pingback: The Deception of The International House of Prayer [re-edit] | Laura Lee Dykstra

  80. Nathaniel

    Sheesh. This is why I quit moderating this blog. Church history solves this whole shebang…Montanism. Check it out. Even Tertullian fell for it.

  81. Pingback: Julie’s story from the KCP (NAR) | Hillsong Church Watch

  82. Kev Wells

    I realize that this is a relatively old post but I feel compelled to add a few personal anecdotes of my own.

    I was involved with the Vineyard for a few years and then MorningStar for more than a few years. Then indirectly ihop through MorningStar.
    Looking back on it now, I marvel that I could have been so deceived. But honestly I was. People who have never been on the inside of these heresies have no idea how powerful they can be.

    I encourage myself by reminding myself that I was involved in the earlier days. The mid 90’s to around 2003. The false was far less obvious then but I really do not have any excuse because I was involved enough to have met most of the leadership personally so I would hear things said that did not line up with scripture and tell myself that I just didn’t understand …yet.

    If you are currently involved or considering becoming involved with these groups let me tell that I pray that you do not do so. I went through a very powerful and dramatic struggle and warfare to get free of these delusions. There are no words to describe what had to take place for me to gain my freedom.

    These groups are very very powerful. I struggled and cried out to God to show me what the deal was with these people and what I finally learned was mind boggling. The leadership of all of these groups have their roots in Luciferian Occultism.

    This seems impossible to people who are entrapped in these false doctrines but it is true. Eventually I learned that the very first official meeting of Vineyard group took place in a Masonic (Luciferian) Temple in Yorba Linda, CA. Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel is a Luciferian. John Todd from the 1970’s, an Illuminati defector and Christian convert, reported giving Chuck Smith millions of dollars on behalf of Luciferians which include the Jesuits and the Vatican.

    Fuller Theological Seminary is false and Luciferian as is Rick Joyner along with Bethel, Kansas City, Lakeland, Brownsville, Toronto, Benny Hinn and so many others too numerous to list here. They are all working toward world wide ecumenism under the Pope and the Vatican.

    As difficult as all of the above may be to believe it is true. Some might say this just sounds like more conspiracy theory drivel. I wonder at thoughts like that. It seems to me that if folks would read their Bibles they would find out that God Himself has told us that the Kings of the Earth conspire to make war on him. And then we wonder why Satan has used his power to cause a knee jerk reaction in people when they hear of anything having to do with a conspiracy?

    Wake up. There is indeed a grand conspiracy underway authored by Satan himself.
    It is written that the way is narrow and few find it. I have never held that truth to be more real than I do today.

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