Ask away

Anything you wanna ask us ? This is the thread for it. Well… Ask away.

148 responses to “Ask away

  1. desean jones

    Glad you are back.

    Question: Lately I have heard people in the prophetic movement talk about the “Roman Gospel” and “Roman Apostles”. They were not referring to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you know where they are getting this?

    thank you, desean

  2. jarrod

    No but my best guess would be the gospel of luke. as to roman apostles…I honestly can’t say. If they don’t mean paul and barnabus then…. maybe they are reffering to the fathers of the early church. Maybe. If they are reffering to something else which isn’t beyond there ability then they could be in some trouble. there are only four gospels recognized as scripture period we can’t go back and re make the cannon unless we are going to admitt the Holy Spirit made a mistake. Nor can we name other apostles than the ones we have named. I am curious what they are referring to and shall give it a look. However i am at the moment inclined to think they are probably attempting to sound educated by referring to the Gospel of Luke, and to paul. what leads you to believe this is not what they are referring to?

  3. desean jones

    They were making the point that the words ‘gospel’ and ‘apostle’ were both common words of the Roman Empire. The conquering Romans would send ‘apostles’ into the conquered land to spread the ‘gospel’ of the Kingdom of Rome. I was just curious where they came up with that idea. I have not been able to find it anywhere but may be looking in all the wrong places.

    Also, here in CA the MSOG is alive and well. It is not unusual for young people from Bethel and Neighborhood CMA church in Chico to talk about by passing the sin nature.
    desean

  4. jarrod

    yeah the word is apostolos which means basically messenger. its a helenistic greek word. we get apostle from the word. and i dont know about the euongellion of rome bit but it dont it is not too far fetched of an idea. I would say the words themselves weren’t too uncommon. but i still dont see the point. The words have since evolved to carry a great meaning. Just because they were common enough in rome doesn’t mean that we use them commonly or that they carry the eact meanings they used to. we say messengers not apostles when we send messages when we say apostle in todays world it carries an uncommon wieght. So flesh this out for me why are they even trying to make this point. it was a common word but so what? i am not following.

  5. desean,

    I’m afraid I would need some sort of context in order to answer these questions.

  6. Iwanthetruth

    I am so glad we are back here and very happy you guys are back on line.

    Makes my heart pitter pat with joy…..

    Yahoo!!!!!!!!!!!

  7. Iwanthetruth

    MSoG and Dominionism is alive everywhere not just CA. There is a church is a small town close to where I live, (4Square), where the pastor stood up and told the congregation that he did not support the Todd Bentley’s or Bethel Church and the teachings of the KC Prophets, etc. etc.

    He has lost one member of the staff that moved the family to Redding to attend Bethel and there has been a split in the church and many have gone to a home fellowship to continue in the “apostasy” that they follow.

    I feel really bad for this pastor. He and I have talked and he has wondered what has happened to Holiness and the truth of the Gospel in these groups. It was a question that he knows the answer to, but is sadden that even after his preaching from the word as he has in the past, that these people could not and do not want to be in line with proper hermanuetics.

  8. IWT,

    Good to hear from you too dude.

  9. das1217

    Yeah,

    I’ve confronted some IHOP blogs with this very thing. Thanks for keeping up.

  10. Polycarp

    I appreciate the link. I think that what y’all are doing is an excellent work.

  11. Polycarp

    Guys, could one of you email me. I need some help.

  12. jarrod

    therodofjah@gmail.com is my email. i dont have yours.

  13. Diane S.

    I’m wondering what you all think of the Notre Dame Graduation hoopla. I don’t want to get into the same abortion issue that caused you to have to retreat back to WordPress, but I thought it would be interesting to hear your perspective.

    I heard Obama’s speech. My impression was that he is a VERY slick talker, and can easily dissarm his opponents with his “Getting along” rhetoric. However, I was thinking…what if during the Civil War, instead of eradicating slavery, people did then what Obama is suggesting what we now should do about abortion…”We don’t agree on the slavery issue, but the landowners have the right to choose under the Constitution. Let’s just work together to make sure that the slavery population is decreased.”

  14. I’m pro-life. So are all faithful Catholics. That about says it.

  15. Diane S.

    I know that you are, and that faithful Catholics are. I’m glad that there was an outcry from the student body; it gives me hope to see that others are speaking out. I do think it was ridiculous for protesting parents to get arrested; after all, they are the ones footing the bill for their children to be the registered students.

  16. Tim H

    http://immutablewordministries.blogspot.com/2009/04/divine-intersection.html

    Nathan,

    I know you have gone to the other site to read some of this stuff. If you still are…

    Didn’t know if you’d be interested but the man that I enjoy posting his writings, J.A. Matteson, now has his own blog site… see above

  17. elizabeth

    Nathan,

    Am I right to assume you are moderator? Is it possible to withdraw my previous comment? I am not sure I should have posted it as the more I have read I am now thinking you all have a lot of insight into IHOP but were never a part of it meaning my post would not necessarily have been appropriately worded. I tried to figure out how to contact the moderator directly but have been unable to do so.

    Sorry for this and thank you for any help,
    elizabeth

  18. No prob Liz. And yes I am a moderator.

  19. elizabeth

    Thank you, Nathan. ~elizabeth

  20. desean jones

    Is the Systematic Theology of L Berkhof of a reformed view point? Does it line up with the views of the OPC?

    desean

  21. desean jones

    Have you read Reformed Dogmatics by Herman Bavinck and do you agree with his view?

    desean

  22. Berkhof would line up quite nicely with the OPC. Bavinck is quite a read…no I have not read Reformed Dogmatics…yet (note: Bavinck would definitely be in line with any conservative Presbyterian denomination as would Berkhof).

  23. desean jones

    Nate,
    Thank you very much for your answers. My copies of Bavinck are due this week.

    For the past 18 months I have been attending a Baptist church with great people. However, the pastor, an adjunct professor (with a doctorate) at a very liberal seminary in SF was quoting NT Wright and recommending his books. He had quoted from Donald Miller’s Blue Like Jazz’ and something from Madam Guyon. Six times I privately questioned his use of questionable stuff but his private response, although very gracious, was that he was:

    “seeking to ‘hate what is evil and cling to what is good.’ I want to be able to mix it up in the world of ideas, able to point to what is true and beautiful while rejecting what is false.”

    He never seemed to point to what is false. Also, can you swim in dirty water without being affected by the crud? As I watch, I see a slide to the emergent side of life. The last sermon I heard was a great history lesson but with the exception of recommending that the congregation read through one of the gospels, no Scripture was given or discussed.

    I am now checking out a Reformed church from the RCUS which is south of town. I love to hear the word of God preached.

    thanks again, desean

  24. IWTT

    http://www.charismamag.com/index.php/prophetic-insight/22787-discerning-the-times

    I put this here because I didn’t know where else to post it. Have at it folks….

    Tim H

  25. IWTT

    Discerning the Times
    Tuesday, 04 August 2009 12:00 AM EDT Rick Joyner Newsletters – Prophetic Insight

    Editor’s Note: The following word is part 35 from a series of messages by prophetic minister Rick Joyner about discerning the times we are living in. You can view the preceding and subsequent messages on his Web site at morningstarministries.org.

    Newsweek magazine recently boasted that Christianity in America is dead. This slap in the face to the American church served only to wake it up. Believers took the comment and held it up before the Lord as Hezekiah did with the boasts of the Assyrian general against the Lord (see 2 Kings 19:15-19).

    It is encouraging to see Christians responding to the continuous assault from those who hate or reject God. Many of them are arising to proclaim that this is not a post-Christian America but a pre-Christian America because we are going to have a revival in our nation that eclipses all others.

    True Christianity does thrive under persecution, but it was hard to imagine just a few months ago how fast Christians in America would unite and mobilize. And that was only in preparation for persecution. When real persecution comes, we can expect an even greater awakening. It is encouraging to see evidence that the body of Christ in America is responding in the right way to the actions against it—resolving to stand with courage and boldness against the rising darkness of the times. In the past, we have had visions of a coming great awakening in America, and now we are seeing proof that there are strong foundations for it to be built on.

    It is now possible to perceive that America will not only recover her freedoms and basic moral fabric but also emerge from these times stronger and much wiser than ever before. The church in America is awakening from her slumber, and it is going to get exciting, but we must also expect many to fall away during this time and not be discouraged about it.

    The emerging battle over religious liberty and freedom of speech in America is going to be won or lost by Christians, but as in any war, there are likely to be some defeats before victory. George Washington led an army that had been defeated time and again for almost six years, but he and his men did not give up. They remained ready to take bold action when the opportunity came to win the ultimate victory.

    In a similar way, we must resolve to fight for the worthy cause regardless of whether we are suffering defeats or winning victories. It is not only about victory or defeat but also about the cause for which we are fighting. If it is a worthy cause, we must resolve never to surrender and never to give up the fight until there is victory. Therefore, clearly defining the cause is one of the most important issues right now.

    The ultimate purpose of the church at the end of this age is to proclaim the gospel of the kingdom throughout the world. Jesus said the end of this age could not come until it had been preached in every place. Spreading the good news is what we must resolve to do regardless of the opposition.

    Just as the first apostles did when the government of their time demanded that they stop preaching and teaching in the name of Jesus, we must declare that we will obey God rather than men—as we must always do when the two are in conflict. We must settle this issue in our hearts right now. If we are not willing to pay the price required to be faithful and obedient to the Lord, then as the Lord Himself taught, we are not worthy of Him.

    For the last few decades, the most prolific message in the church in America has been about how the Lord would bless us—mostly with money or possessions. This emphasis must change. It is now time for courage and sacrifice for the sake of His gospel. It is time for an emphasis on the words of Jesus, such as those we read in the following Scriptures:

    “‘If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it. For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds'” (Matt. 16:24-27, NASB).

    “‘Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life shall lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it'” (Matt. 10:34-39).

    We will find our lives if we will lose them for His sake. Even if our physical lives are taken, a better life awaits. Christians should not only die better than other people but also live with the hope of eternity so that we live the life of the cross, a truly sacrificial life that does all things for the sake of the gospel. The church in America now has one of the greatest opportunities to do this that we have ever had. Do not miss out on it.

    About the author: Rick Joyner is the founder and executive director of MorningStar Publications and Ministries (morningstarministries.org) based in Charlotte, North Carolina. He is also the author of numerous books, including the best-selling The Final Quest and a recently updated version of Overcoming Evil in the Last Days (Destiny Image).

    Prophetic Insight is a weekly bulletin offering timely and relevant messages for the body of Christ from recognized prophetic voices. It is prepared by Maureen Eha, features editor for Charisma magazine. If you’d like to share a message with Maureen, send it to charisma@strang.com This e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it . And please spread the good news by sending this e-newsletter to your friends.

    Posted by Tim H

  26. Diane S.

    Well, I’m glad he’s saying that people need to turn away from the “bless me” mentality. Although, I think his idea of how America will turn back to God & morality is a bit too MSoG-ish for my taste. I think his “prophecy” will fall into the 40% vs. the 60%.

  27. Craig

    …we are going to have a revival in our nation that eclipses all others.”

    Oh yeah, the billion souls saved nonsense. Well, he may well be right; that is, many will have false conversions to his apostasy. Just like lemmings.

  28. Diane S.

    One of the many things that bothers me is that when such “prophecies” are given, they are never retracted later when they do not come to pass. I’ve been in meetings where some very grandiose things were foretold, and the absolute opposite happened instead (A common occurence in my past experience). No one ever discusses this; it just gets shoved under the rug.

  29. Hey guys,

    It’s been a while, I haven’t been following all this for the best part of a year now.

    I saw this on morning star web site this evening.
    About Bentley’s Restoration

    http://morningstarministries.org/Articles/1000045589/MorningStar_Ministries/Media/Special_Bulletins/2009/Special_Bulletin_17.aspx

    What do you all make of it?

    Cheers
    Scott

  30. Tim H

    Dated 3/09… Old news….

  31. McQuaker! Wow……..I make not as much of it as I would have a year ago.

  32. IWTT

    I was just kind of bouncing around and decided to check this site out because of this post I had read,,,

    Miriam Franklin in need of prayer
    « on: Today at 06:10:27 AM »

    ——————————————————————————–

    Recent update on her blog by someone who know her, perhaps her husband. At any rate Miriam has been silent because she has been seriously attacked and injured. My full thoughts on matter are here: http://wp.me/p8N6Q-9F
    But to some up. Prayer for her healing and restoration but more importantly when you stop to read a blog or forum remember to pray for the servant of God behind the words, forum, or what have you. The enemy is at work.

    Anyway, I was following thw site listed at the end but found these remarks of interest, thought I’d share…

    1. I would like to say that I fully agree with almost everything that’s been said against IHOP here. I was a part of them for almost three years, forced to be by my single parent who immersed themselves in false practices and prayers, they put on the guise of being holy and pure but they could not be further from it.
    Eventually I felt that their teaching was entirely off the more I got into it but my hand was forced into trying to accept it. If I brought ‘anything that was not of God’ into my home, such as a video game or a halloween costume it was taken into the back yard and burned as they prayed over it and drove ‘prayer stakes’ into the ground.
    I was abused. I was beaten and held down into chairs while these people claimed they were pulling demons from me. I was fifteen. I am considering filing a case against IHOP because they KNEW what my single parent was doing, I had serious wounds (they did not inflict but was an accident) but received no medical attention even when I told leaders in IHOP that I was not being taken care of and needed to see a doctor immediately. Several times I would plead with my worship leaders or prayer leaders to listen to me when I said I was being abused both verbally and physically and they disregarded every word I said. One night it got too far and my parent tried to choke me to death and a member of IHOP was visiting our home. She did not do anything. Instead I was told that if God were there he would ‘punishing’ me for being impure. Several times I had public confrontations with my parent but no one stepped in even though I was being verbally and physically threatened. Instead they supported them because I was the child and I wasn’t following their creed.
    They are child abusers, false prophets and teachers. Everything is shallow, superficial and boosted up by self righteousness. I met personally with several leaders, knew the leader’s children and interns but was rejected when I told them my situation because I did not fully ‘embrace god’ and ‘everything happened in his time’.
    Their programs steal thousands of dollars from innocent impressionable young men and women, buying them into their way of life and if you try to pull out of it often times a ‘prayer group’ will be sent to your home to attempt to ‘help’ you. They do ‘life interventions’ as well. Bob Jones was one such case but with good reason. I can’t condemn them confronting him because during my time there it came to light not only was he a pedophile but an alcoholic that was abusing boys that visited his home both sexually and physically. I have no respect for anyone who hurts a child.
    These people are evil. They are a cultist group and I no longer believe in God after witnessing the kind of treatment they give to those who don’t ‘adhere to God’s call’. If that was God then I want no part of him or his ‘ministry’. Today I can barely manage because of the mental damage that IHOP inflicted on me, this coming personally from someone who was forced to be a member for three years, I would never suggest them to anyone. STAY AWAY FROM THEM. They’re not worth your money or your time!
    Comment by Anonymous | September 3, 2009

    1. Ailsa, ArisemyLove,
    Thank you for your condolences but I feel that no amount of words that any Christian or anything like them has every told me can undo what’s been done. The only thing that can ever bring light to the injustice that IHOP is inflicting on children is for people to take action.
    I am living proof of the action that was never taken.
    I respect your beliefs and your faith but at this time I feel that Christianity is not, and may not ever be, right for me at this point in time. This is not to say every Christian is what IHOP presents but I have never met a loving, understanding or Christlike person in my life therefore I have no reason to trust what so many people claim to be the truth.
    I am sickened by the thought that they are still operating. How many more children are suffering like I was suffering? What’s being done to liberate them? Nothing. These children are forced by their parents to conform to a way of life imposed on them, not chosen by them, to the point of their own perspective being warped. A child’s heart and mind is a very fragile thing. They don’t even realize they’re part of a cultist group.
    As for the bible itself;
    The Bible was written by man, therefore it is a work of man, even if ‘man’ heard God’s voice. You can assume through that that each person interpreted this differently and it was all written according to the time period it was written for. I do agree with some concepts that the Bible presents, mostly to do with love and acceptance, but I do not agree with how literally scripture is often taken. IHOP is a place that takes it too many steps too far.
    The thing that I find most appalling about what most Christians do (and what keeps me away from the faith itself) is the judgement they seem to think they’re worthy of passing on people with addictions, people who are homosexual or people that are not Christian and do not want to be Christian.
    Jesus did not condemn the addicted, the insane or the prostitute, he helped them, he tried to save them without forcing his way of life directly onto them. Jesus was not judgemental towards the hurt, abused or the abandoned. He welcomed them with open arms. I am not suggesting that this conflict should not be brought to light but should be handled differently. Trying to force someone into what you believe is never right and should not be condoned. I know there is a desperate need among most ‘Christians’ to save others but they need to realize that if someone truly feels drawn to ‘God’ or whatever higher power out there they’ll come to him themselves. Jesus was contagious because of how he portrayed what Christians were meant to be like, not because he forced anyone to do anything, he acted and because of his actions he grew a following that he did not seek to steal from, hurt or destroy. Humans inherently all share one thing. Greed. Whether it be for money, power or attention it’s still not right.
    I encourage people to accept everyone regardless of their doctrine or creed. Religion is a dangerous thing, it kills, it destroys, it controls and obliterates. Faith, however, is entirely different. If one has faith, no matter what it may be in, they can accomplish what they set out to do.
    In spite of all this, IHOP was the exact opposite, I can’t look at the doors of a church without grimacing or thinking of how misled their sheep are. Humans are flawed, it’s in our nature, even though we often try to cover it up by using religion, psychology or our own personal problems to excuse it. IHOP turns a blind eye to those who truly need their help and pushes them out into the cold. My heart is still bitter, torn and hurt from everything that was done to me, most of what happened has even gone unsaid here, but I want nothing more to do with IHOP or the Church. I do not feel ‘God’s call’ on my life and I never have. I don’t want lipservice, I don’t want to see preaching out on the street, I don’t want to see people trying to impose themselves onto others. I want to see action, proper action taken, without the bias of opinion. I want to see people love fearlessly and that love be what draws others in.
    So in other words. Walk the walk if you’re going to talk the talk.
    Comment by Anonymous | September 5, 2009

    1. Anonamous,
    That is a very accustitory story/testamony. Why have you not gone for legal advice against them if this is true? What years were you there?
    Comment by IWTT | September 5, 2009

    1. IWTT,
    Legal action may be in the works now but I did wait because I was unsure how to go about it. I wish to remain anonymous therefore I will only tell you that I was there in 05, 06 and 07. I have no reason to lie. I want people to know the truth. I can prove everything that was done to me, I have names, contacts and close friends that witnessed it. I was enrolled in two programs while there.
    Most of leadership knew and would still be able to recall exactly who I am. I’m not afraid to stand up for what I believe is right just like what you believe is right. Or would you rather justify child abuse? I am not afraid to say they are a self absorbed cultist group that abuses children, some physically, most verbally and a few sexually. You cannot tell me that is right.

    1. Dear Annonymous:
    I think you should sue IHOP to high heaven, pardon the pun, AFTER you have sought other remedies. On that same line, what would constitute a resolution for you? Public apology, financial help, jail time? If you have an ounce left of faith in you towards a good God, pray about that! And bless you.
    P.S. The IHOPers and YWAMers and NARbots were involved with a lawsuit a few years ago that mentioned “brainwashing” by the false prophets of IHOP movement — Cindy Jacobs, JIm Goll, Che Ahn, Jill Austion, bennie Hinn’s wife, etc., with the pastor there who was molesting men.
    Look up the Gateway and Harvest Rock church. I don’t think this case went to court but i know Harvest Rock was sued big time and “brainwashing” was part of the sexual abuse claims.
    Just for the record, I had nothing to do with that church or its meltdown in 2004, but two years later the Lord gave me a word and a vision that said that “Just as the Gateway church was “attacked” by false prophets who inculcated sexual immorality in the pastor (this is what the spirit of false prophecy Jezebel always teaches) your own church will be attacked by false prophets…”
    My investigation of what happened at that small church meltdown is what got me out of the Apostolic Prophetic Cult of IHOP/YWAM/NAR, so I INVITE scrutiny and common sense appraisal of their insanity by Legal authorities.
    Just imagine if the Mormons had been really held up on child abuse and polygamy issues before the Law back when Smith was alive… how many souls would have been saved from Hell by this time?
    In other words, annonymous, go after these false Christians. Go after them with their own Bible and with the full force of the law as you can. You are not held to any Biblical standard against suing another brother or sister in court, because these people are NOT Christians.
    Comment by AriseMyLove | September 9, 2009

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/mike-bickle-ihop-cult-like-tendancies/#comment-50488

  33. Tim H

    Reposted after deletion of the links… I found this post first and then went back to see if I could read more, then I happen to look at the following discussion on this comment. Thought it was very interesting….

    Miriam Franklin in need of prayer
    « on: Today at 06:10:27 AM »

    ——————————————————————————–

    Recent update on her blog by someone who know her, perhaps her husband. At any rate Miriam has been silent because she has been seriously attacked and injured. My full thoughts on matter are here:
    But to some up. Prayer for her healing and restoration but more importantly when you stop to read a blog or forum remember to pray for the servant of God behind the words, forum, or what have you. The enemy is at work.

    1. I would like to say that I fully agree with almost everything that’s been said against IHOP here. I was a part of them for almost three years, forced to be by my single parent who immersed themselves in false practices and prayers, they put on the guise of being holy and pure but they could not be further from it.
    Eventually I felt that their teaching was entirely off the more I got into it but my hand was forced into trying to accept it. If I brought ‘anything that was not of God’ into my home, such as a video game or a halloween costume it was taken into the back yard and burned as they prayed over it and drove ‘prayer stakes’ into the ground.
    I was abused. I was beaten and held down into chairs while these people claimed they were pulling demons from me. I was fifteen. I am considering filing a case against IHOP because they KNEW what my single parent was doing, I had serious wounds (they did not inflict but was an accident) but received no medical attention even when I told leaders in IHOP that I was not being taken care of and needed to see a doctor immediately. Several times I would plead with my worship leaders or prayer leaders to listen to me when I said I was being abused both verbally and physically and they disregarded every word I said. One night it got too far and my parent tried to choke me to death and a member of IHOP was visiting our home. She did not do anything. Instead I was told that if God were there he would ‘punishing’ me for being impure. Several times I had public confrontations with my parent but no one stepped in even though I was being verbally and physically threatened. Instead they supported them because I was the child and I wasn’t following their creed.
    They are child abusers, false prophets and teachers. Everything is shallow, superficial and boosted up by self righteousness. I met personally with several leaders, knew the leader’s children and interns but was rejected when I told them my situation because I did not fully ‘embrace god’ and ‘everything happened in his time’.
    Their programs steal thousands of dollars from innocent impressionable young men and women, buying them into their way of life and if you try to pull out of it often times a ‘prayer group’ will be sent to your home to attempt to ‘help’ you. They do ‘life interventions’ as well. Bob Jones was one such case but with good reason. I can’t condemn them confronting him because during my time there it came to light not only was he a pedophile but an alcoholic that was abusing boys that visited his home both sexually and physically. I have no respect for anyone who hurts a child.
    These people are evil. They are a cultist group and I no longer believe in God after witnessing the kind of treatment they give to those who don’t ‘adhere to God’s call’. If that was God then I want no part of him or his ‘ministry’. Today I can barely manage because of the mental damage that IHOP inflicted on me, this coming personally from someone who was forced to be a member for three years, I would never suggest them to anyone. STAY AWAY FROM THEM. They’re not worth your money or your time!
    Comment by Anonymous | September 3, 2009

    1. Ailsa, ArisemyLove,
    Thank you for your condolences but I feel that no amount of words that any Christian or anything like them has every told me can undo what’s been done. The only thing that can ever bring light to the injustice that IHOP is inflicting on children is for people to take action.
    I am living proof of the action that was never taken.
    I respect your beliefs and your faith but at this time I feel that Christianity is not, and may not ever be, right for me at this point in time. This is not to say every Christian is what IHOP presents but I have never met a loving, understanding or Christlike person in my life therefore I have no reason to trust what so many people claim to be the truth.
    I am sickened by the thought that they are still operating. How many more children are suffering like I was suffering? What’s being done to liberate them? Nothing. These children are forced by their parents to conform to a way of life imposed on them, not chosen by them, to the point of their own perspective being warped. A child’s heart and mind is a very fragile thing. They don’t even realize they’re part of a cultist group.
    As for the bible itself;
    The Bible was written by man, therefore it is a work of man, even if ‘man’ heard God’s voice. You can assume through that that each person interpreted this differently and it was all written according to the time period it was written for. I do agree with some concepts that the Bible presents, mostly to do with love and acceptance, but I do not agree with how literally scripture is often taken. IHOP is a place that takes it too many steps too far.
    The thing that I find most appalling about what most Christians do (and what keeps me away from the faith itself) is the judgement they seem to think they’re worthy of passing on people with addictions, people who are homosexual or people that are not Christian and do not want to be Christian.
    Jesus did not condemn the addicted, the insane or the prostitute, he helped them, he tried to save them without forcing his way of life directly onto them. Jesus was not judgemental towards the hurt, abused or the abandoned. He welcomed them with open arms. I am not suggesting that this conflict should not be brought to light but should be handled differently. Trying to force someone into what you believe is never right and should not be condoned. I know there is a desperate need among most ‘Christians’ to save others but they need to realize that if someone truly feels drawn to ‘God’ or whatever higher power out there they’ll come to him themselves. Jesus was contagious because of how he portrayed what Christians were meant to be like, not because he forced anyone to do anything, he acted and because of his actions he grew a following that he did not seek to steal from, hurt or destroy. Humans inherently all share one thing. Greed. Whether it be for money, power or attention it’s still not right.
    I encourage people to accept everyone regardless of their doctrine or creed. Religion is a dangerous thing, it kills, it destroys, it controls and obliterates. Faith, however, is entirely different. If one has faith, no matter what it may be in, they can accomplish what they set out to do.
    In spite of all this, IHOP was the exact opposite, I can’t look at the doors of a church without grimacing or thinking of how misled their sheep are. Humans are flawed, it’s in our nature, even though we often try to cover it up by using religion, psychology or our own personal problems to excuse it. IHOP turns a blind eye to those who truly need their help and pushes them out into the cold. My heart is still bitter, torn and hurt from everything that was done to me, most of what happened has even gone unsaid here, but I want nothing more to do with IHOP or the Church. I do not feel ‘God’s call’ on my life and I never have. I don’t want lipservice, I don’t want to see preaching out on the street, I don’t want to see people trying to impose themselves onto others. I want to see action, proper action taken, without the bias of opinion. I want to see people love fearlessly and that love be what draws others in.
    So in other words. Walk the walk if you’re going to talk the talk.
    Comment by Anonymous | September 5, 2009

    1. Anonamous,
    That is a very accustitory story/testamony. Why have you not gone for legal advice against them if this is true? What years were you there?
    Comment by IWTT | September 5, 2009

    1. IWTT,
    Legal action may be in the works now but I did wait because I was unsure how to go about it. I wish to remain anonymous therefore I will only tell you that I was there in 05, 06 and 07. I have no reason to lie. I want people to know the truth. I can prove everything that was done to me, I have names, contacts and close friends that witnessed it. I was enrolled in two programs while there.
    Most of leadership knew and would still be able to recall exactly who I am. I’m not afraid to stand up for what I believe is right just like what you believe is right. Or would you rather justify child abuse? I am not afraid to say they are a self absorbed cultist group that abuses children, some physically, most verbally and a few sexually. You cannot tell me that is right.

    1. Dear Annonymous:
    I think you should sue IHOP to high heaven, pardon the pun, AFTER you have sought other remedies. On that same line, what would constitute a resolution for you? Public apology, financial help, jail time? If you have an ounce left of faith in you towards a good God, pray about that! And bless you.
    P.S. The IHOPers and YWAMers and NARbots were involved with a lawsuit a few years ago that mentioned “brainwashing” by the false prophets of IHOP movement — Cindy Jacobs, JIm Goll, Che Ahn, Jill Austion, bennie Hinn’s wife, etc., with the pastor there who was molesting men.
    Look up the Gateway and Harvest Rock church. I don’t think this case went to court but i know Harvest Rock was sued big time and “brainwashing” was part of the sexual abuse claims.
    Just for the record, I had nothing to do with that church or its meltdown in 2004, but two years later the Lord gave me a word and a vision that said that “Just as the Gateway church was “attacked” by false prophets who inculcated sexual immorality in the pastor (this is what the spirit of false prophecy Jezebel always teaches) your own church will be attacked by false prophets…”
    My investigation of what happened at that small church meltdown is what got me out of the Apostolic Prophetic Cult of IHOP/YWAM/NAR, so I INVITE scrutiny and common sense appraisal of their insanity by Legal authorities.
    Just imagine if the Mormons had been really held up on child abuse and polygamy issues before the Law back when Smith was alive… how many souls would have been saved from Hell by this time?
    In other words, annonymous, go after these false Christians. Go after them with their own Bible and with the full force of the law as you can. You are not held to any Biblical standard against suing another brother or sister in court, because these people are NOT Christians.
    Comment by AriseMyLove | September 9, 2009

  34. Craig

    Tim,

    I’m confused. Where did you see that Miriam was attacked/injured?

    The comments from Anonymous are from someone who was a teenaged daughter of a single mom. This has nothing to do with Miriam the way I see it. As far as I know Miriam has never been to IHOP.

    Could you clarify?

  35. Craig

    OK, here’s a blog which speaks of the comment made on Miriam’s own site. The original comment is by “Pardner” under the “Testimony of a Joyce Meyer Follower” thread:

    http://peacebringer7.wordpress.com/2009/09/11/miriam-franklin-needing-prayer/

    I’m praying.

  36. Tim H

    Craig,

    Good you found the site… My main part of the posts was more in line with the acusations made by the girl. I just found it very interesting and if she indeed is seeking legal counsel and is taking them to court, alot may come out to the truth about IHOP. On the other hand none of it may be true and if so that will be shown as well.

    This was just for interest sake.

  37. Craig

    Tim,

    OK, now I see…

  38. Craig Lee

    OK, so was my comment on Bickle’s “Dream” thread deleted?

  39. das1217

    Time to revive this thread I think. I have just a quick question. What is “apostolic unveiling”?

    T @stuartgreaves: Haïti has decades of missionary aid with little result The key: intercession + apostolic unveiling of the beauty of Jesus 1 day ago

    Stuart Greaves tweet Feb 16th or 17th.

    I think I know the answer (LOL). Just curious what your thoughts are.

  40. > What is “apostolic unveiling”?

    Was that like when Bob Jones had some women stand naked in front of him so he could prophecy over them? Oooops, that “prophetic unveiling.” My bad.

  41. jarrod

    The unveiling of Jesus by them with the APOSTOLIC SUPER ANOINTING!!!!!!

  42. Bill Johnson promotes a doctrine that has Jesus voluntarily giving up the use of certain divine attributes so that He could live out an example of what is possible for an ordinary man with a right relationship to God. He was still God, just chose not to use His divinity top perform miracles. All Miracles were done by the Holy Spirit, through Him . . .

    It all seems silly to me, but there are evidently many who have been mislead by these beliefs. My Pastor (and many members of my church family) included.

    My main concern is that this doctrine seems to be the lynch pin that Johnson uses to justify a school of “supernatural” ministry, because he maintains that Christians should be able to do everything that Jesus did. This idea of learning supernatural ministry is very popular in my area, and I am concerned that my church is headed down that road.

    When I sat down with the Pastor to discuss all this, he (as well as a deacon he invited to the meeting) acted as if I were the one with the aberrant doctrine by maintaining that the gospels list many examples of Christ acting in his divinity. I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone . . . or maybe Allen Funt was about to jump out and say, “Smile! You’re on Candid Camera.”

    Understand, I’m aware that Christ limited Himself from using His divinity – in some cases – in order to humble Himself in obedience to the Father. But His miracles seem to show that He used His power lavishly and with great compassion for others.

    My question arises from this . . . my Pastor informed me that Christians have believed since the third century that Christ completely limited the use of His divinity during His lifetime, and acted in all ways as a man “rightly related to God”.

    Is this true? Has this been an accepted doctrine since then? Has it ever been an accepted doctrine?

    Thank you.

    Jim Q

  43. Tim H

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

    The council did not invent the doctrine of the deity of Christ as is sometimes claimed. This idea had long existed in various parts of the Roman empire. It had also long been widely endorsed by the Christian community of the otherwise pagan city of Rome.[3] Instead, the council affirmed and defined what it had found to be the teachings of the Apostles regarding who Christ is; that Christ is the one true God in Deity with the Father.

  44. Even though the pastor’s (a.k.a. Bill Johnson’s) theology is mixed up, I can’t come at him with evidence that supports the deity of Christ, because in his mind he is not denying it. He is only claiming that Christ chose not to use his deity. In fact, he claimed in our meeting that the greek word for “emptied” in philippians 2:7 indicates that He chose not to use His divinity.

    When I said that’s not what it “indicates” at all, he spun around in his chair to use the computer . . . apparently he couldn’t find the evidence he was looking for, because he didn’t mention it again.

    Anyway . . . hopefully this clears up my original question.

    Jim Q

  45. Tim H

    I am sure others on this site could address this but just for the fun of it I am asking a friend of mine who has his masters in biblical Greek and Phd in education focusing on biblical Greek his take on this….

  46. Tim H

    Well for what it’s worth to you…

    Quote…

    Daniel Wallace is correct, 100%!

    The Gospels make it clear that Christ did not exercise his divinity but lived by the power of the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, so that we can learn that we also can live by the power of the Spirit.

  47. Diane S.

    I’m throwing in my disagree…Jesus obviously laid aside some of His PRIVILEDGES as God, no doubt. One example was that in taking on human form, He could no longer be omnipresent. He submitted Himself to the Father, and did not act on His own initiative. However, nowhere in Scripture does it teach that He left His divinity behind as well as the other things.

    He forgave sins, accepted and approved of being worshipped by others, was truimphant over every temptation He faced, and died for the sins of the world as the perfect sacrifice. John the Baptist said that he was unworthy to untie His sandal. Jesus also proclaimed, “Before Abraham was, I AM”. These are things that that the average “Someone rightly related to God” can never do. The Bible is full of accounts of men and women being “Rightly related to God”, and none ever come close to touching who Jesus is and what He did, even in His human state. I have recently begun re-reading the Gospel of John; Jesus’ divinity and uniqueness from any other man is very clear.

    When I left Charismania, one of my issues for doing so was the fact that the work of Jesus was being downplayed. It was a very subtle, underlying current. We were taught that we had the same ministry as Christ, and could do exactly what He did. What ended up happening, was that we were the ones being elevated, and Christ was being left behind in the dust.

    The apostle Paul proclaimed that his only message was “Christ, and Him crucified”. Nowhere in Scripture do you get the idea that the Early Church bought into what is currently being taught.

  48. Spot on, Diane.

    Did Jesus have to work hard to not sin? Was there ever any question about his fulfilling “the assignment?” Could Jesus have gone “rogue?” What would God have done if He had?

    These are some of the questions I asked in a post on Bill Johnson and the kenotic heresy.

    Hang in there Jim, you are on to something, and your pastor is choosing not to see it. And its not a new issue, nor is it unique to BJ.

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2010/01/divinity-of-christ-not.html

    -Bill F.

  49. W B Mc

    This doctrine can be hard to state correctly because doing so demands considerable precision. I’ll have a go at it and let others point out any places I’ve slipped up.

    In the context of this discussion, the word “attributes” differs enormously from words such as “rights,” “prerogatives,” or “privileges.” Attributes are not incidental. They’re related to being or essence. For Jesus to have given up a divine attribute would have entailed His giving up divinity itself. A claim to that effect would be heresy.

    Instead, the teaching of Scripture as understood for many centuries is that Jesus freely chose not to exercise certain rights, prerogatives, or privileges during His ministry. He retained those rights at all times. He simply chose not to exercise them.

    A related question is whether or not Jesus chose not to exercise divine powers. Some would affirm that view, saying that He acted at all times only within the limits of human power. But, by this, they remain within the confines of orthodoxy only if they refer exclusively to the visible works of His ministry witnessed by His disciples and others. Jesus has remained at all times the Creator in whom all things consist. If He were to withdraw the exercise of all of His divine powers, His creation would cease to exist.

    So, to say that Jesus set aside any divine attributes or the exercise of all His divine powers would be a grave error. Yet, there are those within the Word of Faith and charismatic communities–pastors and teachers as well as laypersons–who do say such things enthusiastically and often. 😦

  50. Tim H. – is this quote from your well-educated friend? I have to say that his argument hasn’t changed my mind at all. I googled Daniel Wallace, but I can’t find an article written by him that deals with this subject. I wonder if your friend could be more specific?

    Diane S. – thank you for the vote of confidence in this issue. I agree that doctrine like this seems to lessen Jesus; saying that we can do everything that He did (at will) seems like the plot of a bad science fiction novel. But people believe it. In fact, even though this doctrine is only slightly off the mark, it is being used to justify radical new focus on signs and wonders and promotes a “proof-text” approach to bible study. Nobody reads their bibles anymore, they just buy the latest “teaching” by the latest “teacher” and then call that bible study.

    Bill F. – Thank you for the encouragement. The article at beyondgrace was excellent.

    W B Mc – Thank you for your detailed response, but I am not exactly clear on one of your points. You say, “the teaching of Scripture as understood for many centuries is that Jesus freely chose not to exercise certain rights, prerogatives, or privileges during His ministry. He retained those rights at all times. He simply chose not to exercise them.”

    Can you be more specific about what the teaching of scripture as understood for many centuries says about which rights, prerogatives, or privileges he chose not to use during His ministry? In other words, are you saying that Jesus performed all of the miracles listed in the Gospels with His own power, or by the power of the Holy Spirit?

    My next question is this . . . if it goes no further, is the mere belief that Jesus performed miracles through His own power rather than relying completely on the Holy Spirit a point of debate or a point of separation. I am struggling with this question. Moving my family to a new church is a big step, but I don’t feel comfortable knowing that this belief is lurking just below the surface.

    But let me put it this way . . . if the church leadership does not follow this doctrine down the rabbit hole into hyper-charismania (i.e. supernatural ministry school), would you stay?

  51. W B Mc

    JimQ: “W B Mc – Thank you for your detailed response, but I am not exactly clear on one of your points. You say, “the teaching of Scripture as understood for many centuries is that Jesus freely chose not to exercise certain rights, prerogatives, or privileges during His ministry. He retained those rights at all times. He simply chose not to exercise them.”

    “Can you be more specific about what the teaching of scripture as understood for many centuries says about which rights, prerogatives, or privileges he chose not to use during His ministry? In other words, are you saying that Jesus performed all of the miracles listed in the Gospels with His own power, or by the power of the Holy Spirit?”

    I don’t recall that the distinction between Jesus’s use of His own power versus working by the power of the Spirit is one that has been a matter of debate, let alone consensus. My personal take, for what it’s worth, is that He performed the visible acts of His ministry by means of the power of the Spirit but–and here’s what I was trying to emphasize–He continued to possess and exercise personal divine powers related to His invisible acts, such as sustaining His creation. Someone else may have further information or correction on this point.

    JimQ: “My next question is this . . . if it goes no further, is the mere belief that Jesus performed miracles through His own power rather than relying completely on the Holy Spirit a point of debate or a point of separation. I am struggling with this question. Moving my family to a new church is a big step, but I don’t feel comfortable knowing that this belief is lurking just below the surface.”

    “But let me put it this way . . . if the church leadership does not follow this doctrine down the rabbit hole into hyper-charismania (i.e. supernatural ministry school), would you stay?”

    The belief that Jesus performed miracles through His own divine power is probably the majority view in Church history. The idea is that His miracles, which only God could do, attest to His deity. The view that He performed visible miracles as a humman operating in the power of the Spirit rather than by using His own divine power is relatively recent in terms of popularity. As it happens, I tend to agree with the more recent view but it’s not one that I would insist upon. And, to be fair to those who disagree, I readily concede that my view seems to be a minority view. Wayne Grudem, in his Systematic Theology, summarizes the various positions and defends the view I hold.

    The potential pitfall in relation to this doctrine is the tendency in Word of Faith/ hyper-charismatic circles to insist that we are exactly like Jesus. The thing is, since the time of His incarnation He has had two discrete natures–human and divine–whereas we have only one. We can be like Him in respect to His human nature. But we cannot be like Him in respect to His divine nature. Because He has both human and divine natures, He is unique. That aspect of this doctrine is one that I would hope to find courage to die for. To negate it is heresy. A church that does not confess both the deity and uniqueness of Jesus is, in terms of historic Christianity, an apostate church–one outside the common creeds of Christendom accepted by Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism.

    I hope that helps!

    Blessings,

  52. Jim

    For the grey coats,

    I would like to offer a caution to you in the way you present information about others. We all will have to stand before the throne and give an account of what we spoke (or wrote) and how we did so. The same standard that we apply to others will be applied to us. I would urge you to make sure your writing about IHOP-KC is done in love. Not only for those who you feel are being deceived, but for those you feel are doing the deceiving.

  53. Tim H

    JimQ

    I don’t think this is necessarily a quote from Wallce perse, but rather, from my friend who is probably stating that the Greek lends itself to this belief and he probably got his Greek info from Wallace.

    I am not sure. I was surprised at the short answer I got from him and decided to leave it alone for now. He and I are in a disagreement about some specific issues, mostly that I admitted to him that I have had a re-tooling if you will, about my beliefs in the biblical tongues issue.

    I was pretty involved in the “prophetic worship” teachings and he used to invite me to the bible college to discuss it and teach it. I think he is realizing that I am not such a hard core penatcostal anymore and I am feeling a little bit of a stand-offish attitude from him.

    We’ll see how this all plays out as we are very, very close and we were God Parents to their kids when they were babies.

  54. W B Mc – Your answer helps. A lot. I want to say that I absolutely appreciate your honesty. I only wish that my Pastor had approached this issue the same way. But regardless of that, you’ve shown me that it may be possible to disagree on this and still eat chili together at the pot-luck fellowship.

    You’ve been very gracious, and I hope I haven’t offended you.

    Jim Q

  55. Tim H. – my experience with people who are walking down the wide path is that they feel as if they have been enlightened, and anyone who is clinging too tightly to the unknowable truth of the bible is trying to put God in a box.

    An “enlightened” member of my church put it like this:

    “God is locked in battle trying to free the children of Israel (our Church) from Egypt (The Southern Baptist/ religious sect) figuratively speaking”

    It’s a Southern Baptist church. Now I know why they call it warfare. Thank you for helping.

    Jim Q

  56. “My next question is this . . . if it goes no further, is the mere belief that Jesus performed miracles through His own power rather than relying completely on the Holy Spirit a point of debate or a point of separation.

    Jim Q,

    The point of separation is the destination that Bill Johnson’s conclusions lead to, i.e. “little gods” and ultimately when mixed in with dominion theology, the Manifested Sons of God heresy. And you can’t buy his conclusions and the whole of his teaching without the destination.

    I guess another way of looking at it was that Jesus began his ministry when the Holy Spirit came upon him. Was it the Holy Spirit that enabled him to perform miracles, or CAN YOU POSSIBLY SEPARATE GOD/JESUS AND THE HOLY SPIRIT?

    We are straining at gnats here. John recognized Jesus’ divinity BEFORE he baptized him (“I need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me Mt3:14).

    Note that in Mt 3:17, the audible voice of God stated “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” To how many of that has this happened when we were baptized? 🙂

    So there is a difference. It seems to me, without getting into a detailed teaching, that the Holy Spirit can use us, but often in proportion to the Holiness that we walk in. Jesus, of course, was completely Holy. He never sinned. This is an attribute of God that he never laid down.

    Johnson does not believe this. He states:

    “Jesus lived his earthly life with human limitations. He laid his divinity aside as He sought to fulfill the assignment given to Him by the Father: to live life as a man without sin, and then die in the place of mankind for sin.”

    As I pointed out in my article, Jesus never had to seek to live life as a man without sin. In fact, this was the plan from the get-go.

    1. In the beginning was the Word…

    2. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world

    So, the incarnation of God, as Jesus the son, was the plan from the start, and Jesus came to carry out that plan. He did not have to TRY REAL HARD TO NOT SIN AND SCREW THINGS UP.

    Bill Johnson’s image of God seems very small to me.

    -Bill

  57. jarrod

    Thanx Jim we will keep it in mind. You are right we will stand before God on the last day , and there will be plenty for all to answer for. I hope indeed our motives are spotless and pure , but since even my most contrite tears must be covered in the blood of Christ I will have to plug along and trust in the sacrifice and pray the evil in my motive is mostly residue but not it’s core.

  58. Tim H

    I think the verses in John better describe the reason for the event… seems to be more written here about the reason for the descending of the Spirit as a dove… see hilited below..

    1:29 On the next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 1:30 This is the one about whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who is greater than I am, because he existed before me.’ 1:31 I did not recognize him, but I came baptizing with water so that he could be revealed to Israel.”

    1:32 Then John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending like a dove from heaven, and it remained on him. 1:33 And I did not recognize him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘The one on whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining – this is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 1:34 I have both seen and testified that this man is the Chosen One of God.”

    John the Baptist, who has been so reluctant to elaborate his own role, now more than willingly gives his testimony about Jesus. For the author, the emphasis is totally on John the Baptist as a witness to Jesus. No attention is given to the Baptist’s call to national repentance and very little to his baptizing. Everything is focused on what he has to say about Jesus: so that he could be revealed to Israel.

    The phrase like a dove is a descriptive comparison. The Spirit is not a dove, but descended like one in some sort of bodily representation.

    John says the Spirit remained on Jesus. The Greek verb μένω (menw) is a favorite Johannine word, used 40 times in the Gospel and 27 times in the Epistles (67 together) against 118 times total in the NT. The general significance of the verb μένω for John is to express the permanency of relationship between Father and Son and Son and believer. Here the use of the word implies that Jesus permanently possesses the Holy Spirit, and because he does, he will dispense the Holy Spirit to others in baptism.

  59. Diane S.

    Jim Q –

    I don’t think that there is any church out there where we will agree with everything that is taught 100%. In the things essential to the Christian faith, you definitely need to be in agreement. There are a lot of non-essentials where you have to just agree to disagree.

    When our family left the Vineyard, it was because of MANY different doctrinal positions that we began to see were false, not just one or two minor things that bothered us. These differences were the backbone of who they were as a church/denomination. When the reasons for leaving far outweigh the positives for staying, that’s when it’s time to find greener pastures.

    By the way, when we left I hated the thought of having to “church shop”, especially with two teenagers that needed to be connected to a youth group. It turns out that the very first church we visited was where we have stayed now for over two years. We never saw any reason to even visit another church. We are all thriving there, and as painful as it was to have to uproot, it is the best thing that could have ever happened to us.

  60. Tim H

    Moderators,

    I keep getting a pop up that states that Platial Maps has been disabled and do I want to archive.

    It also is not showing up on your site. Is it time to get it off or another map available..

  61. Jim

    Jarrod, I’m glad that you’re working to keep your motives pure. The reason I wrote is that I attend IHOP and I’ve read your blog for awhile. It’s not my place or purpose to defend IHOP. But what I see portrayed in your blog is not what I’ve observed with my own eyes. So I just wanted to offer the caution. If you’d like to get coffee or something, feel free to use me email to contact me.

    Jim

  62. jarrod

    What have you seen with your own eyes Jim ? How can you see history or the retelling of events 10 and 20 years ago. Look buddy I get it, Most everyone comes on here and says “All I see is a bunch of folks who love God and prayer and ect ect….” Then begins a huge thread of the same old defense lines like don’t touch God’s anointed and have you ever been to IHOP and fill in the blank. It doesn’t change the fact that IHOP has been revising it’s real history and Doctrinal affiliations on paper while continuing to promote many of the things it denies . Albeit more watered down than in the past. Fact is Ihop has been involved in the Latter rain teaching and a few of those fatherly prophets that are endorsed by them like Bob Jones still promote it. Fact is they have rewritten their history. My question is why ? It should be yours as well. I am trying to deal with historical facts not present subjective observation. Please deal with us on the basis of the facts we produce. If we have printed lies then by all means discredit us and rebuke us for our own good. If not then question what you have seen, this changing 99% of what Christianity looks like and believes is some scary stuff. It implies that the church has majorly had it wrong over the past 2000 years and this generation is gonna set it right. I find that to be the height of arrogance and historically crazy .

  63. elizabeth

    Could the changing 99% of what Christianity looks like actually equal the Great Falling Away? If so then it is very scary if you claim to be part of the 99%. Just a thought…

  64. jarrod

    If that 99% includes the doctrine of justification by faith alone, the Holy Trinity , The uniqueness of the incarnation , Salvation by Grace through faith in Jesus and what He has done not in my prayer buckets being filled then I am cool with being included in the 99% that gets swept away. I have no use for a god who has no gospel.

  65. IHOP Jim,

    Let me say from the start that I admire your devotion to Jesus and the fact that you have been willing to set aside other things and get some training at IHOP.

    One of the marks of a good education is that you learn to think critically, and I do not mean that in the meaning of a “critical spirit.” Its an educational term meaning “thinking for oneself.”

    For instance, if I teach a lesson in eschatology, I am always willing to put forth the reasons behing the various views. I trust people to think for themselves, and I trust the Lord to reveal truth.

    A so in that spirit, I wonder seriously what you think of the revisionism in the Blueprint Prophecy that was spelled out in another article.

    Specifically this:

    If the Lord said prophetically “The Outpouring of the Latter-Rain shall be released in this area and upon this city,” as delivered in 1984 and as reported in 2002 and 2006, what purpose is served by removing “Latter-Rain” and chainging the meaning of the prophecy in 2009?

    Do you think that questions about IHOP’s theological involvement in what some have called the “Latter Rain heresy” had anything to do with it?

    The better question is IF we believe that God can give a word of prophecy today (I do), do we have any right to tamper with that word to save face?

    And a final question: do you feel comfortable entrusting your life to men who would do this? Why?

    -Bill Fawcett

  66. tiredoldman

    Hey all, just found this great website. I have a question. Does anybody know anything about the Fellowship of the Sword, and are there any connections with MSoG, IHOp, etc. Pretty much secretive group in the beliefs, seems to me

  67. tired,

    At first glance there does not seem to be any connection whatsoever.

    Looks like a group that put on “wild at heart” type weekends. Not my cup of tea but it isn’t IHOP.

  68. tiredoldman

    THANKS. I don;t believe there is any actual connection, except in perhaps theology. There are some rumblings, and the one or two people I know that has gone is right in line with the teachings of IHOP. That’s why I asked, specifically about Manifest Sons of God.

  69. Tim H

    Just for curiosity sake, write them under contact and ask them if they support and/or teach IHOP ministry and if they also support and teach MSoG/Dominionism theology.

    They will probably respond to that, maybe, well maybe not,…. give it a try.

  70. ruthsongs

    To the Moderators: You guys have a great blog here, and I stop by regularly – but not daily. Can I make one teeny, tiny request? I miss out on threads because they go off the recent comments list so fast. Can you show more than five comments? Will your theme allow? I’m thinking I’m not the only one who may benefit/appreciate…..

  71. Martin

    What do any of you know about the “Bridge” churches? There are 3 in central Florida and one or more in New York/New England. John Paul Jackson is in the leadership of this new grouping of churches. The Pastor who started the 3 in central florida is a man named Bart Malone. Are the Bridge churches part of the KC Prophets movement???

  72. John Paul Jackson was one of the Kansas City Prophets. I do not believe that he has close ties with IHOP at this time, not are there any overt administrative or denominational /network ties between IHOP and the Bridge, but neither are the two incompatible.

    Its just another element of the Apostolic/Prophetic movement. Third Wave, Hyper-Charismatic, many terms describe it.

    My wife heard Jackson “teach” at Toronto many years ago and she said all he could do was blather about dreams, never really opened the word.

    He used to merchandise dream interpetation on his website. I think that generated some bad PR; much safer to make money with conferences.

  73. Diane S.

    Have any of you read the book, “Missional Renaissance” by Reggie McNeal? If so, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts about it.

  74. IWTT

    Google things like:

    Reggie McNeal + Emergent
    Reggie McNeal + Brian McLaren
    Reggie McNeal + Contemplative prayer
    Reggie McNeal + False Teacher
    missional + emergent
    http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue116.htm

    do some reserach on the man and his beliefs and see where he is in the whole scheme of things..

  75. Diane S.

    I’m not finding a whole lot about the author. This is a book our pastor wants us leaders to read. I have already started asking him some pointed questions about it, and we’re supposed to talk more about it via e-mail this coming week.

    I do find it a bit arrogant (Among other things)when the author says that this will be the “Greatest movement since the Reformation”.

    I’ve been duped before by the Charismatic/Prophetic Movement, and I’m not about to be duped again by some Emergent movement or repackaged Social Gospel.

  76. TimH

    Diane S..

    http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue116.pdf

    This is an article I recently read in regards to “missional” and the defining of the term within Emergent.

    Does this article touch on the definition of “missional” in the book you read? And if so does the book you read sound “Emergent” in a way?

  77. Diane S.

    Thanks for the link, Tim! The book’s emphasis is that we are the Church, and as such, should not be holed up in our buildings, but be out there in the community to reach others, which I agree is something we all should be doing anyway, and I would venture to say, that most of the members of our church are already doing.

    There is some language about the church bringing the “Kingdom” to the community. I don’t think it goes to the extreme of the Emergents, but the language IS vague, and I think when that is the case, we all tend to interpret it according to what we already believe, rather than really know what the author meant by it.

    I think what I need to do is just be very honest and ask my pastor what his thoughts are on the Emergent movement.

  78. roger

    So I’ve been poking through this blog recently and wanted to share some thoughts. I’ve been at ihop-kc for about 4 years now and I rarely observe anything close to all the stuff you guys are criticizing ihop for (i.e. latter rain, cultic activity, etc.). There is some but I think you guys might be blowing it way out of proportion. Most of the teaching that I’ve received had to do with the sermon on the mount, prayer, the coming kingdom, the person of Jesus, the person of the Holy Spirit, etc. I guess what I’m trying to say is that you guys may be depicting an IHOP that I’ve yet to experience in these last 4 years. From what I gather from this blog, and if it were my first time going to IHOP, I would assume IHOP to be this buck wild no holds barred type of ministry where everybody has ecstatic visions and run around prophesying to each other naked while worshiping Mike Bickle as savior and throwing our life savings at him without a question. I mean, I appreciate all the work, though much of it is second hand, but fwiw it’s just not reality. Rather, I see families adopting orphans from all over the world. I see money being poured out to help those in crisis. I see you men and women serving the poor and oppressed. I see teenagers sharing the love of Christ to drug addicts. I see students in the library translating Greek. I see many encountering the Lord at Eucharist. That’s not to say that there’s no bad fruit here either but it’s just not anything like what you guys are depicting IHOP to be.

  79. Tim H

    I see families adopting orphans from all over the world.

    Me too… I have famly members who are NOT CHRISTIAN and they adopted from Ukraine. There are many who do this and are not part of IHOP or any other church. So what?

    I see money being poured out to help those in crisis.

    Me too, I see many people giving to crisis in the world such as Haiti and even here in America to take care of the needy but they are not a part of IHOP or any other church. So what?

    I see you men and women serving the poor and oppressed.

    Me too, I read and see may men and women serving the poor who are in the church and who are not IHOP or church or Christian or anything else for that matter. Many people do good things. So what?

    I see teenagers sharing the love of Christ to drug addicts.

    Well, this is good, many who do not have the love of Christ share love to addicts by being there to help them recover, but I’ll give this one to you. You probably have a Celebrate Recovery program.

    I see students in the library translating Greek.

    So what? Not sure what this has to do with anything spiritual. You mean they are translating from the old manuscripts like the early church fathers? What does this have to do with changing a non-believers life.

    I see many encountering the Lord at Eucharist.

    Yes, this is something that we are told to do whether you are a part of IHOP or not. You are being obedient, but is this not to remember the death and resurrection of our Lord? Not so much what I get out of it but that it is a focus on Him? Oh you mean you have taken the same belief as the RC in this? I see?

    That’s not to say that there’s no bad fruit here either but it’s just not anything like what you guys are depicting IHOP to be.

    Nothing you stated up above is any different from what the world does already to help people. What makes your program different? What is it all leading to?

  80. Tim H

    I rarely observe anything close to all the stuff you guys are criticizing ihop for (i.e. latter rain, cultic activity, etc.).

    Of course you don’t. You know, I have a very good friend who teaches at a pentacostal bible college and he says many times after trying to witness to JW ‘s that it was a waste of time talking to them any further because if they really knew the scriptures they wouldn’t be following the theology that they are embracing.

    I wonder, after 4 years of indoctrination, is it possible you can’t see the trees through the forest? I wonder why so many after leaving the IHOP program have come to a place of finally seeing the error of the teaching, (you can’t accuse them) they have not been hurt nor are they bitter. There eyes were opened.

  81. dan

    This is a great ministry you have here. Im sure unbelivers stumble and across this site and are immediatly convected of sin and convert to Christ. I mean with two teachings about Jesus you have mixed in with all the bashing of other people that worship jesus in a way you disagree with really need to be saved buy you and your doing such a good job. I say for get about abortion, the assult on God and his values in our schools and government, forget the sexual sin, forget about the hurting people that need God and dont know because no christian has confronted them on it, forget about the darkness taking hold of the planet, we cant be bothered buy these things because there are groups that declare Christ as there Lord and Savior but the are not doing like you. Go get them point out all the things they do you dont agree with, let it consume you, forget about the other issues they dont matter.

  82. dan and roger,

    Do you guys know each other?

    Is there something legitimate that you wish to ask?

    Cause I know…oh I know, trust me…as a moderator of this blog I know all about how uncharitable, hateful, deceived, angry, and Pharisaical I am. IHOP apologists never fail to remind me of these things on a weekly basis. Even so, these apologists rarely (if ever) answer the substance of our points…they are instead uncannily willing to attack/undermine the motivation behind the content of our material, which is just poor argumentation.

  83. Dan

    Im not an Ihop’r I am just pointing out your fruit or the lack of it. Did you really become a christian to save other christians? The only point I see is you dont like Ihop is there more than that have I missed it. You have 10 or 20 followers that blog about nothing but how they hate ihop good job your well on your way your riches in heaven are waiting on you.

  84. Dan,

    At what point did you become ‘chief fruit inspector’?
    Also, you have no clue what I or anyone else does here outside of selected blogservations carved out of day to day ‘real’ life.

    The fact that a Christian starts a blog does not necessarily mean that it’s sole purpose is one of soul-winning. Or that it should be. Would you object to a Christian starting a blog about cooking, or wine-tasting, or fly-fishing? What if those Christians criticized other Christian cooking, wine-tasting, or fly-fishing experts? Fruitless Christians would be your judgment, no?

    I don’t know why I bother…you are clearly a troll (a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum) and unless you bring substantive discussion I will have to give you the boot of brotherhood.

  85. W B Mc

    Dan, please bear in mind that it was IHOP’s Mike Bickle who, not many months ago, was proclaiming to America’s Christian youth via Internet video that their “pastors are lying” to them. And, he is the one claiming a divine mandate to “change the expression of Christianity within a generation.” Exactly who is drawing the battle lines here, Bickel or his critics?

    On a simply practical level, how can one have meaningful fellowship with members of a group whose leader claims pastors are liars? Or, with members of a group whose leaders teach, as a foundational principle, that God has chosen them to right what is wrong with the greater Body of Christ?

    It seems to me that we’re dealing here with quite irreconcilable differences. Bickle himself seems to understand that to be the case, as indicated by his charge and his claimed mandate. Consistent with his claim, he is boldly charting a new course in any number of respects. The question is, are he and the other IHOP leaders leading folks into darkness or into light? Lovers of truth yearn to know.

  86. A Reader

    dan,

    Please ask Mike Bickle to offer a remedial English grammar and spelling class for his students.

  87. jarrod

    Dan

    I don’t care how you feel or what you think about this blog. If this blog were the whole of my life I would agree with you. I am not interested in your examination of the fruit of my life based on this blog site. You are quite mistaken if you think us to be 35 year old fat guys who live with our moms and sit around all day in our underwear just lookin for things to complain about. Oh well . I guess we should just up and quite. Hey Nat lets quit. we are not focusing on what Dan thinks we should. Maybe I can come over to your mom’s house and we can have some cookies and milk and rethink our lives. I mean after my D&D tournament next week Of course.

    Thanks Dan as I have said before I do love condemnation with my coffee.

  88. desean jones

    jarrod,

    Thanks for the chuckle.

    Tell your mom “Hi”.

  89. Dan

    Your right I dont know what you do outside of your blogservation. I do know that there are a few of you that really feel convicted to save people from IHOP but I have not see you call a pray meeting to pray for IHOP’ers unless you didnt announce it publicly and just invited a select few let me know if I am wrong. If I look at you home page under tags I noticed that you have things like Mike Bickle, Allan Hood, False prophet, and other things real big and bold for links. And real small in the middle of all these things you have a God tag. You have a link for the vindication of Ernie Gruin your main source of ammo against Mike Bickle. What you are failing to point out to every one is that shortly after Ernie Gruine wrote his feelings on Mike and KCF he ran off to St. Louis with his church secretary leaving his church and family behind. I do belive that he committed sexual sin, the same sexual sin you berate others for and hold them responcible for. But you make no mention of Ernies mistakes. I dont remember ever getting a public apology from him over that. After he ran off with his secretary a man name Hal Linhardt took over his ministry for some years. He now runs the Forerunner Evangelism at IHOP. So I guess not all of Ernies congergation or even staff belived what he said. I dont see you make any mention of that truth seekers. So really all I see being done here is alot of time spent at IHOP’s web site trying to discredit them. Which is easy to do because they make very easy to find what they belive and teach. I cant find that here I see no declaration of what you believe here just what you dont believe. So we know that you dont believe in 24 hour prayer, why is that God our creator the one who sent his Son to save us does not deserve non stop worship. You dont believe that God loves us enough to send a revival to our nation you dont think that he would send conviction to the masses to repent and return to him. Did he stop taking applications for salvation and IHOP didnt get the memo. I see you have an alpha omega ministrys link. I love watching Dr. White debate and I know he loves Jesus but I am not a calvinist I dont believe every thing he believes. But he loves Jesus and I agree with him on that so we can agree to disagree about everything else. Im not going to start a blog about how I dont like the things he belives in especially when we both agree to love Jesus. W B mc I did watch the speach you are talking about more than once. So lets talk about our pastors today in the church. In 2001 76.5% of americans clamed to be christian down from 86.2% in 1990. http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm I gave you the link to look it up yourself. Right now there are 11 states that have voted for and passed same sex marrage. Did the christians get out voted buy the 23.5%? Did the christians not show up to the polls? Is there compromise being made on christian values? You tell me. The presbyterians are allowing homosexual leaders in there church did I miss read all the verses that condem sexual sin or is compromise being made. This year we will surpass the death toll of WWII in abortions 50 Million. 4000 abortions a day is that really all the 24.5% that are not christians or is compromise being made. Are your preachers talking about repentence, striving for holiness, reaching for God through prayer and reading the word of God, or are they teaching you your best life now. Are they making compromise on the word of God to be more socially accepted, what do you think. I dont think he called out every preacher in american but there is a group of them out there that needed to be called out. And I dont remember him saying they were the ones with all the answers, but they are a small group in the big picture of what God is doing with the church all over the world. And I have to agree with him on that. I really dont care if you like IHOP or not. But I do care about Jesus Christ. I do care about the Darkness that is taking over our nation and the stranglehold satan has on the rest of the world. I dont care if someone is Cathlolic, baptist, charasmatic, presbyterian, or any of the other many denominations in what we call the church in America. If you declaire Jesus Christ as your savior and the only way to achive grace and you are not making compromise on the word of God, now more than ever is a time to agree on the one truth we all agree on, Jesus Christ as our redeemer, king, and start standing on that together. There are lies being spoke about our Savior, there is an assault being carried out on the word of God, There are christians being killed all over the world and I dont think it will be long before they start killing christians in america, christians can no longer pray in our schools but muslim rights are being protected. There are lies being spread about americas history with God and the more we compromise on his truths that this nation was founded on the worse we get. So what is the christian responce to all this. We start Blogs to bash other belivers in Jesus because we dont agree with all they believe.

  90. jarrod

    ok I will only say this one last time so let it be for posterity . WE ARE AWARE THAT GRUEN COMMITTED ADULTERY ! WE ARE AWARE THAT HE RAN OFF AND REMARRIED ! HE ADMITTED IT ! The interview has nothing to do with that. It was about the rumor that he had recanted what he wrote and declared himself to be deceived and a deceiver. The reason you don’t have an affirmation and denial page on our site is because WE ARE NOT A SCHOOL OR A MINISTRY THAT IS LOOKING FOR FOLLOWERS!!! If you want to know what I believe go to the Hesed church link on the blog role. (if you do don’t you dare bring this mess to that site) You assume too much from our blog site. You have never seen a prayer meeting requested because we are all over the country and the world, I don’t personally want a prayer thread on this particular blog. It is clear you are new to us because if you weren’t you would know that we lost most of our old content in a move from a .com back to word press. We have just recently been blogging again on a semi regular basis . You say “I dont care if someone is Cathlolic, baptist, charasmatic, presbyterian, or any of the other many denominations in what we call the church in America.” Well you damn well should. The Gospel matters and if we get the message wrong then we can say Jesus all we want and all we will have to show for it will be false converts to a Christ haunted fake church. You had better know what you believe and why or you wont stand before the onslaught that you think is coming. Let me be frank ( If I haven’t already been) You sir are reaching beyond the appropriate level of familiarity allowed on this site. assuming things about our personal lives or prayer lives ect which you cannot see from this little blog. You assume too much we are not interested in Burning IHOP to the ground. We want them to be honest about their past and what they really believe. You don’t care fine keep it to your self . you sure do write a lot for some one who doesn’t care though . You sir need to step off and rethink the way you have communicated this day. You may not think some of these teachers are dangerous and why would you you have already posted that you don’t care as long as they say Jesus . We DO !!! WE THINK LATTER RAIN IS DANGEROUS… we think that lying about your history and what you have taught shows a lack of Godly character that should be present in a forrunner type ministry if there is such a thing. we think that your prophets are false and make ship wreck of gullible sheep so that they can feel affirmed in their own lives. I think you need to open your eyes and do some research shift your paradigm and back up a bit. if you think we don’t care about abortion or the joel osteen Creflo Dollar pulpit pimps out there then all that proves is you are new to the show.

    have a lovely day Dan.

  91. TimH

    Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

    Dan,

    Just out of curiosity, whether we believe we are correct and biblical in what we are doing or you are correct in what you are stating, what and who do you think this verse is refering to? Especiallyvs 22.

  92. tiredoldman

    JUST FYI

    I wrote to the contacts on the Fellowship of the Sword webpage and asked questions related to their theology, including MSoG stuff. No reply.

  93. Dan,

    When Mike Bickle stated “your pastors and leaders are lying to you and we are going to expose those lies” he was not talking about liberal pastors and ordaining homosexuals, or support abortion, or whatever. The comment was made in a One Thing ’08 promotional video. The theme of One Thing ’08 was what Bickle calls “Apostolic Millenianism.” Bickle was plainly refering to those who teach a pre-trib rapture as the liars. This was confimed by contemperaneous comments in the IHOP chat rooms.

    There are major doctrines and minor doctrines. We break fellowship over major doctrines, such as the diety of Christ. We should not break fellowship over minor doctrines, such as the timing of the tribulation (i.e. pre-trib or post-trib). Seven years is really nothing to break fellowship over in the overall scheme of things.

    Anyhow, since the Word of God tells us that liars will not go to heaven, this is a rather serious statement.

    Defend it if you can.

    -Bill

  94. Bill Fawcett

    Dan,

    The quote that W B brought up was NOT the December 2009 quote to which you referred. W B asked “how can one have meaningful fellowship with members of a group whose leader claims pastors are liars?” The reference here was to a promotional video for One Thing ’08 and I know that because WB and I discussed it on December 14, 2008.

    What Bickle said was “your pastors and leaders are lying to you and we are going to expose those lies.”

    As I stated, Bickle was plainly refering to those who teach a pre-trib rapture as the liars, as it was given in the context of his then upcoming eschatologicaly-themed conference.

    A few weeks later, at One Thing ’08, Bickle made it perfectly clear. In his message “Apostolic Millenialism” he characterised the pre-trib viewpoint as “a dangerous deception.”

    http://www.archive.org/download/ihopteachingsdotcom_CONF_15/onething_08___Apostolic_Pre-Millennialism_-_Mike_Bickle.doc

    So that’s the truth of the matter. I seriously would not raise an accusation against Mike Bickle without having the documentation to back it up. I’ve been observing for a long time and taking notes (BTW, Bickle and I are about the same age and were saved and baptized in the holy ghost at about the same time).

    Anyhow, since the Word of God tells us that liars will not go to heaven, this is a rather serious statement.

    So I ask again, defend it if you can.

    You can’t. Its indefensible.

    -Bill

  95. To all,

    Dan is being moderated. He has some presuppositions about what blogging is and/or should be which are simply fantastic (and perhaps a bit legalistic).

    And for the record, the 2nd largest Presbyterian denom. (PCA) is definitely not accepting homosexuality in our leadership.

  96. Awww.

    Well here’s my point. Dan, I’ve never been an Ernie Gruen defender. 1) I didn’t know him and 2) He is most likely (see 1) with a much better defender now and 3) I never vouched for his character(see 1) and put my reputation on the line.

    But, I will defend the bulk of his “Abberations” document. Some of it is dated and perhaps irrelevant; I know- I said things in the 80s that I would not support now. However much insight into the present days workings of all-things-IHOP can be gained from this well-researched and documented treatise.

    A central theme of “Abberations,” and this was noticed and affirmed by John Wimber when he blew into town, was the elitism shown by Mike Bickle and his followers. Mike Bickle admitted that an exclusive attitude circulated among some KCF members. Wimber stated “I believe Ernie Gruen’s intervention was the providence of God..The recent accusations have benefitted KCF. The elite, know-it-all spirit is gone.” (1)

    Wimber, and Gruen, of course are gone. However the fact that Bickle is now making statements about his pre-trib brothers in the Lord, calling them liars and stating that the pre-trib viewpoint is a “dangerous deception” (2) reveals that the elite spirit has not left the house.

    And this issue is the tip of the iceberg.

    -Bill

    (1) Ministries Today, September/October 1990, “Resolving the Kansas City Prophecy Controvery” Lee Grady.

    (2) The problem here is not the minor (7 year) difference between pre-trib and post-trib eschatology but that one would break fellowship over a minor doctrine and damn one’s detractors to hell.

  97. jarrod

    Dan this is why you got moderated. and will continue to be. go cool off man come back and act right and we will let you talk or you can hit the bricks which ever you want. you got moderated cause we are tired of this kind of dialogue . it has gotten old and stale. we have written what we have written it is backed up and verifiable . you don’t want to read it don’t we don’t care.

    have a lovely day Dan.

  98. Michael

    Greycoats,

    I was blessed to run across your web page. Almost two years ago my wife and I left the charismatic/prophetic/apostolic movement. We had been involved for many years. We had gotten married in a “prophetic church”, our first born was dedicated there, and all of our friends were within their number. We were the local leaders of a Bound4Life chapter. I had done an internship in Kansas City and was a leader in the local House of Prayer as well. One day, a church that was considering endorsing Bound4Life asked us to share with them our theological foundations. While compiling them together, I realized how much of my “faith” in this movement and the entire prophetic/apostolic movement was based upon eisegesis and conjecture. The main tenant of Bound4Life was our need as a nation to CONSTANTLY plead the blood of Jesus over our sins and the sins of our nation. Whereas I believe in the importance of repentance, i asked myself and the others in my ministry if this practice didn’t make it seem that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is insufficient for all times? Upon the first questions, more began to come to me, and by the end of all my question asking, my wife and I were relieved of our duties from ministry and tagged as backsliders. At the time I was just posing these questions in a sincere and seeking way. I wanted explanations on why we believed what we believed. It was a red flag that at the moment of inquiry we were met with such resistance. It’s been two years and I am still trying to get myself and my family back on our feet within a christian fellowship. It has just been a real challenge to trust leaders again. Anyway, I just wanted to share that with someone and say thank you for the blog posts you guys have put up thus far. I’ll keep reading and you can be sure I’ll post further comments. Be blessed.

    Michael

  99. Michael,

    Last night our bible study was watching a John Ankerberg series on the Jehovah’s Witnesses. In this program Helen Ortega tells how she was disfellowshipped because she asked a simple theological question. I remarked how this was not unlike what happens in many Charismatic churches when you ask questions or challenge any doctrine or practice.

    Pleading the blood is an interesting concept. I am currently researching the etymology of that phrase (it is not a biblical term) for an upcoming beyondgrace blog. There are some spotty references throughout the ages but I suspect the current usage and meaning can be traced back to Kenneth Hagin and Tulsa. I’ve ordered a specific book by Hagin and also a Joyce Meyer book and should have some better info in a few weeks.

    Personally I believe the practice (beside being extra-biblical) detracts from the once-for-all nature of the blood sacrifice. A quick internet search reveals that some think we can remind God of this (like He has forgotten), or that it is a legal sanction against Satan (like he has forgotten). Most outrageou was the claim that ” Pleading the Blood is the scriptural way of enforcing the victory of Calvary.”

    Now, how, I must ask can we, mortal men, “enforce the victory of
    calvary”. Wasn’t that work done once for all?

    I understand that there are certain aspects of an overcoming Christian life that we must “apply”, and so perhaps “pleading the blood” is a
    figurative (Toronto “prophetic”) way of applying the atonement, and one which visits the symbolism of the application of blood to the doorposts.

    When it become a formula, or talisman, as you may have seen with Bound4life, it become absurd.
    Although perhaps not as absurd as “repenting” on behalf of others (a nation, perhaps) who are not repentant and continue in sin.

    Anyhow, welcome to the Grey Coats. There are a lot of recovering charismatics here!

    -Bill

    Ankerberg series if anyone is interested.

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ankerberg+Jehovah+WItnesses

  100. I think I will re-post an article I wrote a few years ago about this specific item.

  101. Janet Stone

    My daughter has interest in attending “Catalyst” in Tacoma WA this summer 2010. This is a prophetic school followed by a missions trip to Cambodia. She is to leave June 12 so I would appreciate response ASAP. This school is connected with City Central Church in Tacoma. I have spent many hrs. reading of the cult-like behavior of these Christian groups. She also is interested in IHOP gatherings. If any of you have any facts please let me know.

  102. desean jones

    Janet,
    How old is your daughter and do you have any influence in her life?

    desean

  103. Janet Stone

    My daughter is 20 and I would like to think we have great influence in her life.

  104. jarrod

    please read the Gruen article and check the historical revision stuff as well as Julies story . Otherwise go to the scriptures with her and see if what they say matches , study theology with her . Sound doctrine is the best and ultimately the only weapon we have.

  105. desean jones

    Gently talk with her about what her motivations are for thinking of these choices. Knowing how she is thinking may afford you the opportunity to show her from God’s Word the truth of how He works. He tells us very plainly how we should worship him and seek him.

    Like Jarrod said educate yourself with these groups and the doctrines they hold and practice. Pray. Only God can change the heart or open her eyes.

    desean

  106. Janet Stone

    Is Julie’s story within the Gruen report? I just quickly skimmed it. I’ll definitely read it more closely later. It has much info exposed. I would like to know if their is negative information regarding the internship of the Catalyst group from Tacoma WA . They are connected to City Central Church. They offer training in the prophetic then a month long missions’ trip.

  107. jarrod

    Never heard of them but lets see what we can turn up.

  108. desean jones

    When I go to City Central Church in Tacoma’s website, I find it odd that it shows no affiliations. Brian Brennt seems to have been the pastor at some point. It seems they are connected with YWAM – which, to me, is not a good thing. Where did your daughter hear of this group?

  109. Janet Stone

    The Catalyst group came to Taylor University in Upland, IN this spring semester. My daughter is an Indiana Wesleyan student but attended a Thursday eve. prayer time at Taylor. Some of the prayer group are students of the prophetic. One prof, maybe more, follows prophetic teaching. Several Taylor students are attending the Catalyst event this summer, a few from IWU as well.

  110. When I think of the many people that have visited this website and have been critical of the critical thinking going on, I think I have found the ultimate answer. We now have a mandate.

    “I mandate you to boldly challenge everything you hear me, Allen Hood, Lou Engle, any of the main leaders here, anything you hear us say, I mandate you to challenge it, to see if its in the Word of God, and if its not, then you have the mandate to appeal to us to get it correct.”

    -Mike Bickle, OneThing 2008 12-29-2008

  111. jarrod

    Amen !! I Challenge as of now .

  112. Brandon

    I appreciate the testimonies available here. I’m currently trying to get some friends out of IHOP.

    I was wondering if anyone has digital recordings (or tapes or their transcripts) the any of the many audio files quoted in the Ernie Gruen report. If so, could I get access to them?

    I have been able to track down a couple of tapes – one of Mike Bickle interviewing Bob Jones during the Kansas City Prophets days and the other of a sermon preached during that era in which the preacher plays some audio clips of from KCF. I have made digital copies if anyone is interested.

  113. IWTT

    Brandon

    Go Here http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/ and contactthe administrator W Fawcett. He has all kinds of stuff and good articles and crtiques of the talks by Mike Bickle.

    He probably has some downloadable stuff or archives he can point you to.

    Good Luck and praying

  114. IWTT

    Brandon,

    Check this one out as well. Contact the owner.

    http://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/about-this-blog/

  115. Brandon

    Thanks so much!

  116. I thought this may be of interest to folks over here. I decided to start a blog with the impetus a recent YouTube video/audio exposing faulty teaching of Bill Johnson of Bethel Church:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2010/09/17/bill-johnsons-born-again-jesus-part-i/

  117. Justus

    Hi, I’m interested to hear of your opinion in regards to IHOP/Bickle setting a branch of their organisation in Hong Kong called ANHOP: http://www.anhop.asia/
    I mean to say that I have read many of your articles which accounts for things that happened in America, but not so much in Asia.

    Thanks.

  118. Please delete the post from TimH
    November 7, 2010 at 7:09 am
    under the vindication of ernie gruen

  119. Micah

    hey yall, been learnin a lot

    Ive been at IHOP-U for about 2 months now. Its certainly been a ride. ill admit i spent about 45 minutes reading comments and arguments then just let it go, so if the questions i present are answered please repeat them for me anyways. 🙂

    First of all id like to start with Song of Solomon and the basis of IHOP emotionalism. I just got an 18 part teaching with several pages of notes for each part. It was a lot. their interpretation is Allegorical, and interesting. yes, im sorting through it on my own to see what i believe. either way the basis of their teachings on intimacy and all that stuff is based on the personal exegesis of many of the leaders here over decades. I dont fully understand it, and i am at this point unable to decide whether i agree with it or not.

    I by no means have all the answers. i dont understand it all. Being here though has been utterly rooted in the Word. If their interpretations are wrong, than im left to be a Berean on my own, and often i choose to re-study topics.

    Aside from what prophetic words the leaders want to put stock in, would you please look at what Ihop is now and see if its Bible based? it seems to me like it is.

    Do any of you attend weekend services at IHOP’s owned FCF building?

    Do any of you look at notes from teachings of Ihop leaders?

    have any of you spent 40 hours a week in prayer and worship as your main vocation?

    http://mikebickle.org/
    look over his notes. to me it seems Bible based. Would you agree?

  120. I hope that you will continue to add articles to this blog. It is very helpful, and I like what I’ve picked up of your doctrinal understandings from briefly reading here.

  121. If any of you are still reading and answering…
    Have you read the account of Bob Jones having told Todd Bentley in 1980 that he (Bob) received revelations from Emma? According to some blogs, they got the story from Todd Bentley’s site before everything fell apart. They then carry the story quoted directly from Bentley. In it, Jones encourages Bentley to expect to begin to have encounters with Emma himself.
    If true, Bob Jones would have been entertaining that spirit at the foundation of IHOP.

    What do you know about this? Credible or only as credible as Todd Bentley?

  122. Micah

    well im confused….
    todd bentley as in the revival leader who was in immorality? who was born in 1976? i got that from wikipedia! i mean on a timeline that just doesn’t make sense, but maybe im confused, or have the wrong todd bentley.

    as for “entertaining that spirit” its just a hard topic. some people say when saul conjured samuel that he really conjured DEMON while others say it really was samuel. You might say that spirit had to have been a demon, but someone else says that it could have been a real person’s spirit. Its what you want to believe. theres not a great clear cut theology for me on that topic but…

  123. Thanks for responding. Yes, you’re right, I realized after posting that Todd Bentley was too young for the conversation to have happened in 1980. I read back over a couple places that told this story, and Bob Jones said to Bentley probably around 1998 that in 1980 the angel first appeared to Jones.
    I was wondering if you have perhaps heard from reliable sources that Bob Jones actually did make the claim. I don’t care to try to delve into proving if Emma was a spirit or an angel or a demon, just whether Bob Jones did claim to have been visited by her/him/it.

  124. CSeeker

    Given that some men formerly associated with IHOP (e.g., John Paul Jackson) claim to have traveled backward in time (e.g., to the era of King David), I’m unsure how the fact that Todd Bentley would have been quite young at the time of the first alleged appearance of the entity identified as Emma would rule out his having had conversation with Bob Jones in 1980. If these men are to be allowed to make claims such as time travel, they should be held fully responsible for the potential consequences of their claims, IMO. So I don’t consider a time conflict to be necessarily exculpatory.

  125. Micah

    thats funny bro… i mean what someone claims personally and what they proclaim on the platform makes all the difference. id If John Paul Jackson wants to claim that than so be it. if He wants to preach on it than im going to leave the room. if he said he had a dream than i listen to it… and decide if i care about it.

    as a response to whether it makes the statement exculpatory lets look at Stephen. He preached to the Ethiopian eunich. Baptized him. then found himself instantly in a different town. according to modern movies he’d be a “jumper”. So do we hold Stephen accountable for be a jumper every time he says something? or can we look at that and say… “its possible God did that once. seems crazy to me, but thats not a condition that i hold him to at all times.”

    either way. i dont believe in time travel. does that mean that Ihop does not preach the Bible on sunday morning? Guilt by association is like Sean Hannity calling Obama a Communist because he read a Carl Marx book in college. Its a combination of irrational and unfair. it mostly just points to Sean Hannity’s own close minded-ness. (in case it matters i consider myself republican, sean hannity just “beats the dead horse” and i find him annoying)

  126. CSeeker

    These men were at one time part of the same organization, under common leadership and responsibility for discipline. Outrageous and heretical remarks were common even at that time. In particular, J.P. Jackson and Bob Jones were placed by John Wimber under probationary discipline for the things they were saying. To my knowledge, they were never removed from that status.

    Recently I’ve heard firsthand J.P. Jackson preach at length about his alleged time travel. He MAY have mentioned Jesus once or twice. I don’t specifically recall. But I know he did not mention the Cross or the Gospel. His was not a Christian message. It could have been preached by anyone who affirms supernatural experience such as time travel who also believes that various Bible personalities actually lived.

    Much, I think I could say almost all, that I hear from IHOP is the same. Jesus is mentioned. But His Cross and the Gospel are definitely NOT at the center of exposition. The liberals who disbelieve in the supernatural cite Jesus and the Bible. Even the New Agers cite Jesus. It’s the Cross and Gospel that make Christian preaching Christian. In that sense, what goes down an IHOP is rarely Christian.

    It isn’t simply that these men once hung out together, as you well know. My concerns go way beyond mere guilt by association despite your attempt to style them as such. You’re making molehills of mountains. My critique is rather elementary and fundamental, I should think, Let me state it more concisely: How is it that for IHOP dreams, visions, and (alleged) experiences have come to have place before the Gospel? Don’t we agree that the Gospel should be at the center? If not, what should be there and why?

  127. W B Mc,

    If you’re still reading/commenting here, on Feb, 26, 2010 you wrote:

    The belief that Jesus performed miracles through His own divine power is probably the majority view in Church history. The idea is that His miracles, which only God could do, attest to His deity. The view that He performed visible miracles as a humman operating in the power of the Spirit rather than by using His own divine power is relatively recent in terms of popularity. As it happens, I tend to agree with the more recent view but it’s not one that I would insist upon. And, to be fair to those who disagree, I readily concede that my view seems to be a minority view. Wayne Grudem, in his Systematic Theology, summarizes the various positions and defends the view I hold.

    I have Grudem’s Systematic; can you point me to this section? It seems to me Grudem actually affirms the historic view that Christ performed His own miracles in virtue of His divine nature as opposed to via the Spirit. In a subsection titled Evidence That Jesus Possessed Attributes of Deity Grudem states:

    In addition to the specific affirmations of Jesus’ deity seen in the many passages quoted above, we see many examples of actions in Jesus’ lifetime that point to his divine character.

    Jesus demonstrated his omnipotence when he stilled the storm at sea with a word (Matt. 8:26-27), multiplied the loaves and fish (Matt. 14:19), and changed water into wine (John 2:1-11). Some might object that these miracles just showed that the power of the Holy Spirit working through him, just as the Holy Spirit could work through any other human being, and therefore these do not demonstrate Jesus’ own deity. But the contextual explanations of these events often point not to what they demonstrate about the power of the Holy Spirit but to waht they demonstrate about Jesus himself. For instance, after Jesus turned water into wine, John tells us, “This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifest his glory; and his disciples believed in him” (John 2:11)… [Grudem Systematic Theology 1994, Inter-Varsity Press, Leicester, GB / Zondervan, Grand Rapids, MI; p 547. Emphasis in original.]

    My edition is the first. Perhaps the newer edition is changed in this regard?

  128. CSeeker, I agree with your point about experiences having taken a place before the Gospel at IHOP (and with all the associated ministries, such as the Arnott’s Catch the Fire, Iris, Redding, and so on.)

    Derek Prince wrote a book not long after the Toronto Blessing movement began. He had attended one or more of their meetings to see for himself what it was about. His book was a response. He warned Christians about the experience-based Gospel they were promoting. He said he was very troubled at the beginning of the meeting when the leader encouraged the congregation to just go with what would happen and to not analyze it with their minds. Of course, Mr. Prince reminded that we are told to try the spirits and not to just accept whatever experience comes as from God.

  129. Brian

    Hello to all,

    I found this blog by a search on yahoo. I have some questions regarding the prophetic movement and the experiences happening in them. I have checked out and have been a part of a third wave and prophetic movement church. I have been to a conference held by a church that supported todd bentley and is I think well known. I also went to see todd bentley when he came to my area when the whole lakeland thing was going on. Here is my question. I know there was something supernatural going on at these churches because they would pray for me and tell me things in my past that they would not have know apart from something spiritual going on. There was one time when I went to a prayer meeting at this church and I asked one of the pastors to pray for me. He was okay with it. He touched my forehead and then my chest and proceeded to pray in that way. As I left I felt some kind of presence on me. I could feel a sensation on me. I went home and was watching television when a well known sports coach was being interviewed on tv. As I was watching I somehow knew that the coach was lying to the people interviewing him. I just knew it. I think my knowing he was lying was connected with the pastor praying for me. I don’t know if he imparted something to me but that’s what it seems like.
    At another time I was in a room while someone was ending a meeting by praying. As the person (a charismatic) prayed they were (the only way I can describe it) controlling the Holy Spirit or God by almost in a way commanding or ordering certain feelings to be experienced by us in the room. And after he finished praying I did feel some kind of sensation or presence on me. Something really did happen while the guy was ‘praying’. This sensation made me feel happy and lighthearted, if I can describe it that way.
    My question is how do we explain this? I’ve read a testimony of a former charismatic who seems to limit what is going on in the charismatic/prophetic movement to just solely natural ways of manipulating people but I don’t that is all there is to it. From my experience there is definetly something supernatural going on, such as impartations. Do we just say it’s demonic? I am split because you can get prayed for have someone prophesy over you and tell you something that is accurate and that may encourage you but at the same time all the other weird and bizarre practices and behaviors and even demeanors of people in the prophetic movement has me saying ” this is not of God”. What are your thoughts?

  130. Accuracy is no test. We cannot say:

    A true prophet of God is accurate.
    Prophet X is accurate.
    Therefore Prophet X is a true prophet of God.

    History is replete with prophets who were accurate but were not Godly.
    The Bible even forbids the use of diviators and soothsayers – and the concern there is not that they might be inaccurate.
    Most often that accuracy comes witha controlling spirit (manipulation – witchcraft).
    Even a blind squirrel (occasionally) finds a nut.

    I have attended a vineyard training class where they actually taught people how to do “cold readings.” You start off “prophecying” very broad generic things, looking for reactions. When you see a reaction you narrow down the guesses. It’s like a flow chart. Vineyard had a string influence on both Bethel and IHOP. Todd Bently does this cold reading stuff- there used to be a funny video of him where he failed big time doing this with individuals in a prayer line.

    Feelings:

    Derek Prince, speaking of the meetings in Toronto, said it was a mixture of spirits. he is probably right. You cannot judge based on feelings, because feelings can lie. The Bible says “the heart is decietful.” Don’t trust your feelings, walk by faith, not by sight,

    I was involved in the charismatic movement, which morphed into the hyper-charismatic movement from 1972-2005 (I am now Pentecostal). Let me tell you that feelings will lie. Most of the people – good sincere people- that allowed themselves to be led by thier feelings are no longer follwomg the Lord today.

    Some will try to explain these feelings away by calling them demonic or Kundalini. I think most of it is the flesh, or just our makeup.

    Impartations:

    A quick word about “impartations.” The latter rain emphasis on impartation though the laying on of hands draws greatly from 2 Timothy 1:6, which in the KJV says:

    “Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.”

    This is a reference to 1 Timothy 4:14

    “Do not neglect the spiritual gift you have, given to you and confirmed by prophetic words when the elders laid hands on you.”

    A better translation of the Greek would be “which was given to you through prophecy.” Here as in 1 Timothy 2:15 the preposition “through” denotes not “means” but accompanying circumstances: “accompanied by prophecy.”

    The point- get your impartation from GOD not MAN. If you seek impartion from man, whether through personal prayer or assembly-line fire tunnels, you will likey recieve the impartation known as defilement.

  131. Brian

    Here’s another question: Matthew 7:21-23 says that there will be people who prophesy and cast out demons and do powerful deeds that are not saved or will not enter heaven. Jesus tells them that He never knew them and that they are workers of lawlessness. Do you think these verses are saying that a person can prophesy, cast out demons and do powerful deeds and yet not be born again? That’s what it sounds like Jesus is saying here. It sounds like Jesus isn’t denying that these people didn’t do miracles and such but only that He didn’t know them, that they weren’t born again. I also find it interesting that Jesus calls them “workers of lawlessness”. Does this mean a nonbeliever can somehow get an “impartation” or a gift and exercise that gift and yet not be saved?

  132. Brian,

    Your analysis of Matthew 7:21-23 is correct. Jesus even states they will claim to have done these things ‘in His name’. Also, keep in mind the parable of the weeds in Matthew 13:24-30. These weeds will be present with the wheat, i.e., in church pews.

    In addition, consider 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12. While most assume this is speaking strictly of the time when the “lawless one”, the antichrist, is present on the earth, verse 7 makes it clear that “the secret power of the lawless one is already at work” [NIV, 1984] while Paul penned those words, and he has been at work for the past 2000 years.

    So, yes, non-believers can get an “impartation”. And, I’ll have to differ a bit from Mr. Fawcett above – while certainly there are some who do things by their own flesh in order to ‘conform’, others are being used unwittingly by spiritual forces or, worse, some are willfully using spiritual forces.

  133. Brian

    If it is true that nonbelievers can prophesy, cast out demons and do mighty works in Jesus’ name that makes clear gospel preaching and the need to clearly communicate the need for people to repent and believe in order to be saved. I say this because from the churches or conferences I have been to who are charismatic/third wave I don’t think I’ve heard the gospel and the need to repent and believe but instead there seems to be alot of talk of signs and wonders and miracles and that kind of stuff and doing miracles. That means if a nonbeliever were to attend one of these conferences they could just easily walk to the front or get in one of those lines and get imparted and then as a result of the weird things that start to happen in their life they think they’re right with God.

  134. Brian,

    I want to add a bit of clarity. In reading Matthew 7:22 closely, you’ll see that Jesus states these individuals will plead, “did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform miracles?” [NIV, 1984]. That is, they think they had done these things ‘in His name’ [or, they are so arrogant as to try to talk their way into heaven, to plead their case, even though they knew they were using witchcraft, etc.] yet Jesus ‘never knew them’. My point is that they do these things by the power of Satan and not Jesus. [One cannot truly do the miraculous in one’s own flesh – there must be some other ‘higher’ power at work.] It seems you were trying to articulate this, but it didn’t quite come out clearly.

    However, your more important observation is spot-on. The true Gospel is not being preached – or very rarely being preached – thus the unsaved are not getting saved; instead they are deluded into thinking they are saved because of the signs and wonders. Some of these people will ‘walk away from the faith’ later due to various reasons, yet the real truth is that they were never ‘in the faith’ to be with. This is not to say there are not saved individuals within the ‘movement’. At some point, God will take the truly saved and remove them from it.

    The hyper-charismatic movement is very dangerous for one’s spiritual health.

  135. Micah

    i just want to say, compared to most of the previous comments on this thread which were full of anger and all kinds of weird fighting, the comments within the last week have actually been edifying.
    🙂

    Hey Brian i just want to encourage you to keep one thing close to you. Dont walk around assuming that people are fakers or not Christians in churches anywhere. Its can be detrimental to the faith of you and others. Dont discount everyone who claims to be a believer just because some people are not. dont discount the genuine simply because the fake exists.

    the only one who can wade through your thoughts, experiences, and the power of the Holy Spirit on your life is you. i believe that God can give make you feel a certain way, and that when we pray He actually responds. You know that He has encountered you personally, so it seems safe to assume that He has encountered others, and they do have genuine faith, be it weak or strong.

    My favorite thing to do when i find myself in doubt of someones faith is talking about the Cross, and me personally joining in a relationship day to day in the Word and with the Holy Spirit. The people worth being skeptical of, are the ones who dont ACTUALLY read the Word, or dont ACTUALLY pray and talk with the Holy Spirit.

    In Christ alone
    -Micah

  136. Brian

    Thanks for the responses and the words of caution regarding becoming judgmental. It seems to me this kind of stuff happening in the prophetic movement spreads pretty fast into churches and to Christians who may have not been charismatic. Is this common in your experiences and observations as well?

  137. Brian

    Craig, Yes I think you more clearly articulated what I was trying to say about Matt. 7. Good observations on how if someone is doing something that is supernatural it cannot be something they produced out of their own flesh or human, unless it’s some kind of magic trick.
    I was reading Deut. 13:1-4 where it talks about a prophet or a dreamer of dreams. It’s interesting because Deut. 13:1-4 talks about a “dreamer of dreams” ,which I guess means someone who gets knowledge of some sort through dreams, and Acts 2 in quoting Joel says that as a result of the Holy Spirit coming that “your old men shall dream dreams”(esv). This means that dreaming dreams can be either from God and not from God.
    Another verse that has been interesting to think about is from Acts 16:16. It says that as Paul and Silas were going to the place of prayer a girl who “had a spirit of divination” and who brought alot of revenue for her owners by “fortune-telling” followed Paul telling people that Paul was bringing the message of salvation. This is a very interesting thing to read because it sounds like she was accurate in using her “spirit of divination” or “fortune-telling” about Paul. Do you guys think “spirit of divination” means a literal spirit like a supernatural being? How does this affect us in 2013? Does this mean a person can have a “spirit of divination” in our day? But I love Paul’s response in verse 18. It say Paul was “greatly annoyed”.

  138. Brian,

    Rather than offer my opinion, I’ll give two scholarly ones. The first is by I. Howard Marshall from his Tyndale commentary [TNTC, InterVarsity Press, 1980; p 285]:

    …On one of Paul’s visits to the place of prayer, he and his companions were met by a slave girl who had the gift of second sight, and made money for her owners by telling fortunes. Her gift is attributed by Luke to a spirit of divination, literally ‘a spirit, a Python’. The latter word originally meant a snake, and in particular the snake which guarded the celebrated oracle at Delphi and which was said to have been slain by Apollo [ED: the Greek god]. The word was also used to mean a ventriloquist. Ventriloquists acted as fortune-tellers, the unusual character of the sounds which they produced no doubt having a numinous effect; they were probably thought to be inhabited by a demon. In the present case the girl presumably spoke like a ventriloquist and had the gift of clairvoyance, and therefore Luke has described her as having a spirit (i.e. and evil spirit), namely one capable of ventriloquism. [emphasis added]

    As a side note: Interestingly, Kundalini is said to be an ‘awakening’ of the ‘serpent at the base of the spine’.

    Clinton E. Arnold makes a comment on this passage (specifically referring to v 18) in the Zondervan Illustrated Bible Backgrounds Commentary [Volume 2, John, Acts. Zondervan, 2002; p 374]:

    Evil spirits have not disappeared since Jesus’ day; nor have they turned into psychological pathologies. They continue to exist and do all they can to oppose the redemptive work of God in the world. In the same way that Paul dealt with these spirits, we can effectively deal with them as well. Overcoming them has nothing to do with our own strength, but the power and authority of acting in the name of Jesus by virtue of our close relationship with him.

    In other words, Arnold would say that yes, people today can have a ‘spirit of divination’.

    I was watching Criminal Minds the other day and this particular episode had a young man who became a schizophrenic as a result of the abuse suffered as a child at the hands of his stepfather. In this case, the somewhat quiet, withdrawn (and substance abusing) guy had an assertive, aggressive woman named Amanda as his ‘alter ego’. “Amanda” was killing alpha males as surrogates for the guy’s stepfather. It seems possible to me that this (fictitious case) could well be a case of demonic possession rather than schizophrenia.

    For research, I’ve been reading books by Alice A. Bailey whose works form much of the basis for the New Age / New Spirituality movement. Her books were channelled by a demon; that is, she was the vehicle through which the demon wrote these books. Demonic possession is a stated goal:

    Emphasis should be laid on the evolution of humanity with peculiar attention to its goal, perfection…man in incarnation, by the indwelling and over-shadowing soul…The relation of the individual soul to all souls should be taught, and with it the long-awaited kingdom of God is simply the appearance of soul-controlled men on earth in everyday life and at all stages of that control…The fact will appear that the Kingdom has always been present but has remained unrecognized, owing to the relatively few people who express, as yet, its quality…. [Alice A. Bailey The Externalisation of the Hierarchy. © 1957 Lucis Trust, NY, 6th printing 1981; Fort Orange Press, Albany, NY; p 588. Emphasis added.]

    “Over-shadowing” and “soul-control” obviously mean demonic control, i.e. possession. And, as one can see in the text above, demons have their own version of the “kingdom of god”. To fully ‘see’ this “kingdom of god” one must be completely ‘over-shadowed’.

    So, yes, I’d say a person nowadays can have a “spirit of divination”. [Another Bailey book is on telepathy, clairvoyance.]

  139. allison

    Hi can you give me any resources on IHOP quotes about pursuing accreditation?… from Leaders on blogs.. like Tom Mills, Zack Hensley, Allen Hood, David Sliker.. anyone.

  140. Jarrod Taylor

    I can try to get you a few.

  141. Jane

    I am in agreement with you that Jesus came to do away with “religion” and to refocus his children on relationship.

    I’d encourage you to know your facts before publicly speaking out against men and women that may or may not be God’s anointed.

    I was a friend and classmate of the daughter of one of Ernie Gruen’s mistresses. Yes, one of his mistresses. There were many before he eventually ran away to Florida with the mother of my friend who subsequently filed for divorce from her husband.

    Using “the vindication of E. Gruen” as a platform for devaluing and tearing down Mike Bickle and other pastor’s is completely misguided.

  142. Always Research A Matter!

    Hi Jarrod: Thanks for this site: Appreciate you doing this:
    Jane: SO prevalant and Focus on the Family did a survey on that years ago and or how many had Pornography problems; that’s IF they were honest. Write them and or George Barna and see if they have a current survey of asking Pastor’s questions=it was really eye opening and so sad.
    Jarrod: I have a favor to ask: Can you give Kevin Wells and Arendale on Julie’s Story Part 2 my email address please and Thank you!

  143. Always Research A Matter!

    P.S. Sorry, about previous Blog: Couldn’t remember Blog name! GETTING OLD! By the way: in the news they were talking about replacing Passwords with couple of different options because people can’t remember their Passwords and at least changing them at least once a month either finger print or heartbeat bracelet and sorry to be part of that problem.

  144. Always Research A Matter!

    A thought: Has anyone asked E. Gruen’s Widow outcome and how come M. Bickle was so hell bent on trying to “destroy him”? Come to the conclusion in read over 120 hours on M.Bickle/Blogs/IHOPrayer (and him being on church correction list since 3/2000 to NO AVAIL) and seeing so many Blogs that comments were removed/coerced makes you wonder how much these Leaders are involved in the Evil/Dark side mentioned in Battle Hymn by Scura/Phillips; Marketing of Evil/How Evil Works etc., David Kupelian reads., Dragnet Nation by Julie ?; The Planned Destruction of America by Dr. James W. Wardner along with Plague by Mikovits.

    Jane: NOT justifying mistresses but I’ve seen a few too many gifted Men in Christendom=truly gifted that the church leaders tried to destroy, lie about like satan; that they went on very hell bent roads to destruction and some to the death. Read the Comments on Julie’s Story part 2. Just Google: Scandal, People’s Negative Feedback, Abused by, People’s Controlversial Articles on M. Bickle, or IHOPrayer; that applies to any pastor and or Ministry and do your research. We don’t want to see our Pastors/Leaders as Warlocks/Witches or Lining what they say (write it out) with the Bible. Someone just asked me if I had see the Hulu film/documentary called “Path” and it depicts a Cult (has anyone looked up and researched a definition of a cult and under the pages 12/21 describes “sociopath”). Felt like my former Pentecostal Charismatic Churches were run NO different than a Mormon Pyramid Cult; didn’t think to research who founded them and their History (early years). Pagan Christianity (green cover) by Frank Viola; Ungodly Fear by Stephen Parsons (“exploiting the need to belong” site is excellent); Don’t Call Me Brother by Austin Miles (& 2nd book); Losing My Religion by Wm Lobdell & UTube Video; People In Glass Houses by Tanya Levin; Toxic Faith by S. Arterburn; Thieves by Trey Smith, Unholy Anointing by H.A. Lewis; Jerry Leonard’s-That’s No Problem for the Lord (regarding Divine Appointments). So many excellent reads (have over a five page list of books to get over Church/Pastoral Abuse).

    Brian: Enjoy your ?’s and searching and wanting answers. Line it up with the Word=Bible. For me: Leonard Ravenhill; Arthur (Art, Aaron, Arthur Aaron) Katz, Derek Prince (who apologized for his errors) were excellent teachers for me and kept me on the straight and narrow and from going to hell over my former, evil, abusive, narcissism, guilt, condemnation, criticism, belittling, controlling, false shepherd, wolf, hireling, charlatan, Jeremiah 23: & Ezekiel 34:all. KNOW, READ, STUDY YOUR Bible, prayer and inquire of the God, Jesus, Holy Spirit. Also, for all the excellent teachers that Blogged or wrote Books; divine appointments (didn’t compromise to get the word out and live in fear or get coerced to get removed but let the truth be known=Thank you)! Read the Bible from Cover to Cover at least once a year! John 8:32, Acts 5:29, Matthew 11:12, 2 Peter 3:9, Proverbs 9:10=GET WISDOM!

  145. Always Research A Matter!

    Note: Regarding comments on John Paul Jackson: Ask his wife; get to the truth from source closest or close friends. Know this: really you would trust Vineyard opinion about JPJ? Did you know that a pastoral’s relative lied about JPJ and got him benched for a year (he submitted to that even though the person lied and people didn’t know and or hear about). Regarding VCF they said they wanted the Apostolic and or Prophetic when actually they were metaphorically murdering it (and otherwise); look them now, shell of themselves. Don’t speculate; know two people who I wished would write the Book on VCF (vineyard christian fellowship) and expose the dogma and wished they would before they die (none of us get out of here alive). Another item: think about this: People who are really gifted, I don’t know why they align with wrong ministries but they do for whatever reason and because a lot of deception and lies in all of the following; like Jill Austin aligning with Mike Bickle. Jill just wanted God and his Glory and 4-16-1998 message summed it up “Gatekeepers of His Glory”. Grew up Assemblies of their god and they’re always looking for these “golden haired boys” to bring in money to the coffers, Bible isn’t important let alone God, Jesus, Holy Spirit and or any type of apostolic/prophetic gifting, true Worship (that’s a Thesis/Dissertation in itself) and or PRAYER is NOT important; except praying on the people to be kept in their lifestyles. Interesting, heard Kingsley Fletcher do a message on this very item; about some big named Man that sucked someone gifting/anointing dry because followed Man over God (like making a deal with the Devil). Did the person inquire of the Lord if they could even go with that Ministry? Also, about Acts 8:26-40 (GOD CAN DO WHATEVER HE WANTS OTHERWISE THE BIBLE IS ALL A LIE AND IT’S NOT, there is the mysteries and the miraculous. We have all those Biblical examples so why wouldn’t they be for today? Look up that verse: God is NOT a man that he should lie…
    Did anyone hear Dr. Fushia Pickett’s message on what the Church would call “Revival” which is NOT a word in the Bible like Rapture but regarding the Harvest about the conditions “UNLESS AND UNTIL”. WE’RE CONTENT TO LIVE WITHOUT PRAYER AND THE GLORY! Pretty bad, when very gifted intercessors ask you “if, (biggest little word in the Bible) IF, IT’S TOO LATE TO PRAY”? Prayer in the spiritual is like breathing in the natural, you quit breathing you die, you quit praying same thing that’s why we have all these dead men and these dead churches.
    NOTE: Dan/Roger defending IHOPrayer or whatever and legalistic. They will wake up in 40-50’s and maybe not even then and realized they lived their life through and for someone else. It would be interesting if they didn’t go to church for a year and not talk any religious topic for a year; wonder what they would learn? Since they’re NOT researching a matter (I didn’t either until someone left the church and killed herself; was asking questions but wasn’t paying attention, was bee boppin through life with rose colored glasses on and the awakening was a rude one indeed!
    Anyone up for January 27th, 1991 message by Leonard Ravenhill=pretty brutal message? Read all of 2 Thessalonians: Especially Chapter 2 given over to a lie and worse defending a lie.
    Leonard Ravenhill and Art Katz along with John Paul Jackson (BEST) in the prophetic teaching; I didn’t follow JPJ saw him teach: Prophet and the Man, Prophet and the Gift, Prophet and the Church and it was EXCELLENT! His teaching on the 14 characteristics of Jezebel Spirit (tape) was by far one of the best messages ever along with Francis Frangipane “Three Battlegrounds”.
    Closing thought: Had a divine appointment with a man and he said in his City “Witches were sent to Central Coast” to pray for the demise of marriages” (we’re seeing that=Divorce rate ramphant) and where is the PEOPLE (not churches) in all this; too busy on dead methods, programs and being kept busy in the dead church=kept on the circuit of carnival circus busy. Left my Home Town in 1998 and there were 102 churches and NOT one, not one was changing their City for God, they were Religious but were they truly in right relationship with God, Jesus, Holy Spirit? I know I wasn’t. Someone told me there were over 6,000 churches in California=that’s a lot of perversion! How many Nationwide?
    “Sometimes if God has/had a Kid’s Face by Bruce Ritter” and where is the church (people are the church=NOT buildings) in all of this and so many other endeavors. “As the church goes, so goes the world”; if the world is corrupt it’s because the church is! Study repentance in the Bible and Holiness!

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