Read This Before You Comment

“Before You Comment”

Some recent blogservations have revealed to me the uncanny ability of some of our visitors to absolutely deny logic.  Non-contradiction is a law of Western thinking and mediates the flow of ideas categorically, whereas, Eastern pantheistic philosophy denies Aristotelian reasoning with statements such as “the soul of the one is the soul of the cosmos”.  The influx of Eastern teaching into America has heightened the spiritual temperature of popular culture.  Spirituality is now a popular dish served up everywhere from business school (“The Secret”) to the bedroom (“Tantra for Dummies”). 

With this cornucopia of enlightenment comes a whole new way of thinking and talking about faith, religion, and the metaphysical.  Discussions of spirituality are now commonly understood to be outside the normal standards of reasonable debate.  Somehow the laws of logic which would apply within a political debate are completely out when the topic turns to religion, faith, or spiritual matters.  This certainly applies to topics of faith and doctrine in the blogosphere.

I have had bloggers ‘amen’ my statements which pointedly question their main doctrines.  It is as if they willfully ignore a reasoned challenge to their worldview.  The inquiry is skirted by deliberate resistance to engaging in debate.  Is this the mark of a secure position?  Or is it a carefully redirected sophistry?  More often than not, when a question is answered there is no acknowledgement of the answer, only more questions delivered in rapid fire succession.   Questions pile up, obscuring the argument at hand. 

With that said, there are such things as good and bad arguments.   That is the sole purpose of logic—it determines what a good argument is.  How OFTEN one CAPITALIZES or bold types usually indicates their level of arguing ability.  One man tried to win me over in a discussion by using scores of exclamation marks to show that he really meant business.  I’ve learned that online discussions have their own forms of amateurish rhetoric.    

Emotional rhetoric is the norm from those protesting our views on IHOP or…whatever.  Good rhetoric can be persuasive, often even more so than logic (this is where the Charismatic honchos really shine—they know how to turn a phrase and work a crowd), but bad rhetoric looks like a mentally retarded adult climbing into the ring with Felix Trinidad.  Listen, you don’t have to use big or fancy words to get your point across–sophisticated language sometimes obscures our main points–because well thought out, plain spoken wisdom works just fine.

Rhetoric is an art but logic is a tool.  Faulty logic, on the other hand, is a useless tool.  Tools which are used incorrectly cease to be tools–they do not fit the task at hand.  Now that reason has been pumped out of the current spiritual discussion logic itself has become an alien species within topics of faith.  The response goes something like this, “Man, I don’t care if there are doctrinal contradictions between prophets and the Bible because I feel so strongly that these men are from God and their hearts are really in the messages they give.”  The truth value is placed on empirical evidence—I know because I experience—as opposed to critical evaluation.  

Experience is not bad.  However, in debate it may easily cloud evidence.  Rational debate can be gotten at but there is a science to it which cannot be circumvented.  For all of our readers:  think before you post a comment.  Determine and analyze your main points.  Be open to constructive criticism.  Limit the questions to one or two and don’t try to prove too much.  On a courteous note, look for common ground.  And finally, don’t think that you are the first one to come up with whatever argument it is you are bringing to the site.  Happy blogging.  Welcome to thegreycoats. 

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75 responses to “Read This Before You Comment

  1. Rob

    For the post modern mystic, logic seems to almost be a thing to be avoided. This is so frustrating, because as I read scripture, it reveals that God has often communicated to us in the framework of logical constructs. There is cause and effect. There is logical dependency in many Biblical passages. Even well-meaning pastors often mistakenly assign equivalence to a statement and its converse.

    But when a persuasive logical argument is made to the post modern mystic, he agrees that you have “proven” your point, but that in fact confirms your error. You are approaching things logically. That’s your problem.

    It reminds me of a debate among workers a few decades back. My colleague in triumph declared that he had proved that another worker was approaching a problem from a racist perspective. My colleague thought the argument was over. The other worker responded, “Of course I’m a racist…what’s your point?”

    -r

  2. ortho

    natrimony,

    I think you should consider making your own blog. IMO It would be so much easier to hash stuff out with you than other folks I’ve encountered.

  3. Rob,

    “But when a persuasive logical argument is made to the post modern mystic, he agrees that you have “proven” your point, but that in fact confirms your error. You are approaching things logically. That’s your problem.”

    Your input is invaluable sir. What an astute observation. I may quote you on this in the future if you don’t mind.

  4. The rallying cry of the Toronto experience:

    God offends the mind.

  5. Rob

    Nat,

    Quote at will. My son has often told me, “What you say makes sense, but you can’t feel it.” He has had an experience that trumps logic.

    Equally frustrating is being given instructions in exegesis by ones who supposedly are using the authority of the Word of God to convince us of the insufficiency of the Word of God. They know that the Bible is our standard, so they try to argue from that standard…knowing that they don’t really claim that standard.

    They argue against the written Word in favor of the perceived word. They argue for the Grudem-type prophecy that promotes edification of the church, but go back to their web sites and proclaim fantasies that have nothing to do with the Word of God or the edification of the church. Its so frustrating…like playing a sport where one side has no defining rules.

  6. Rob,

    I believe that your frustration reflects how spectators view the post-modern worldview’s expression of spirituality.

  7. Ok, they say that in KC too:

    I will articulate what I think are the key practical and theological problems with the KC Prophets. They are:
    The Dispensation of the End Times. The KC Prophets introduced a “Dispensation of the End-Times”. This error undermines the Grace of the Gospel.

    Anti-discernment. The word from hell, “God offends the mind to reveal the heart”.

    Speculative understanding of Causation. You know it when you see it.

    http://21stcenturyreformation.blogspot.com/2004/11/weird-or-winsome-my-expereince-with-kc.html

  8. Oh, gee, looks like that was a quote from Bob Jones himself.


    Bob Jones was just plain weird, and his person just naturally makes one feel like something is just not quite right. Our ability to perceive that a person has some mental or emotional dysfunction is often more accurate than our ability to put it into words. The “God offends the mind to reveal the heart” word was the KC prophets ultimate defense mechanism against a person’s natural wisdom.
    The word was in essence saying, “Don’t trust your discernment. The hyper-spiritual are always offensive to the uninitiated”.

    Don’t trust your own mind is a total manipulative, cultic, de-humanizing lie from hell (did I say that out loud??). The Holy Spirit brings clarity not confusion.

  9. Bickle uses that same phrase in “Growing in the Prophetic” on page 210, “God often offends the mind to test and reveal the heart.” The problem is that this has become a catch all answer used to validate any doctrine/practice which is questioned. So far I have not found this teaching in the Scriptures. It does seem more in line with an Eastern comprehension of spirituality and by Eastern I mean gurus not Byzantine Christianity.

  10. I think we saw an example of exactly what you were talking about over on Zack’s site, when he said not to come over there with anti-IHOP stuff, when replying to your post about abortion. This happens almost every time these folks are confronted with something they can’t refute. I had to get tough with one of them on my blog for the usual holier than thou you-are-not-loving-and-being-judgmental-because-you-disagree-with-me kind of thing.

    Amazing, that us “unloving”, “judgmental” folk try to treat Zack and others with much more courtesy than they do us and at least we give them a chance to fully express their views. Again, the double standard of this movement shows itself more and more as time goes by.

    You would think folks would be happy to be invited to share any dissenting views freely so that other people could see both sides of the story and make an informed decision. Oh, well.

    Hope I’m not being out of line by sharing this. I just find it very frustrating sometimes that people dismiss a well thought out post, which does take time to formulate, (at least for me), with the usual same old, same old accusatory personal remarks we commonly get from people who cannot, or will not even attempt to carry on a two way conversation on just the issues, without getting huffy.

  11. Mbaker,

    Zack has been courteous to me despite his avoidance of my question.

  12. eli

    mbaker

    Is this what you are referring to?
    “I am not an IHOP apologist! My blog is a personal place, not a place to make arguements for or against the ministry I work for.”(from Zack’s blog)

    when you wrote:
    “I think we saw an example of exactly what you were talking about over on Zack’s site, when he said not to come over there with anti-IHOP stuff, when replying to your post about abortion. This happens almost every time these folks are confronted with something they can’t refute. I had to get tough with one of them on my blog for the usual holier than thou you-are-not-loving-and-being-judgmental-because-you-disagree-with-me kind of thing.

    I saw his post as a relatively gentle statement that he did not want the main focus of his blog to be continually defending IHOP. His other posts appeared gracious and not overly judgmental or defensive. But this raises what I think is a larger issue.

    I am not sure if most of the people who post here realize it but this is not a level playing field and you should be charitable to those who are defensive and should be particularly kind to those who choose to engage with you. I do not mean that you do not listen to all view points and that you do not attempt to be fair, for I believe you do. What I mean is that when you diologue with people from IHOP you come from substantially different position (and I don’t mean theological postition.) The purpose of this blog (for the most part, there are clearly other purposes as well) is to defend what you beleive to be to true and to refute what you believe to be false teaching. That is essentially an offensive position. You are risking very little of what is essential to your faith and your life in God. The people at IHOP (and let me be clear, I am not one. I have listened to and learned from IHOP and I have also tried to listen very closely to its many critics in order to discern the truth) believe that they have clearly heard God’s word for them and for the most part have given everything they are and have to “extravagant devotion.” They are living in poverty, trying to embrace Sermon on the Mount lifestyles of humility and meekness, and pouring themselves out in prayer. They have given everything they are and have to God as they understand Him, even if that understanding is in some ways wrong.

    I am not saying that diolgue, critique, and even strong scriptural rebuke are not appropriate but you are diloguing with, critiquing, and rebuking the very essence of their life in God.
    Most of you would agree that the people at IHOP are Christians who are following what they genuinely believe to be God’s will for their lives. I am not saying that you should not offer correction but I am saying that you are treading on sacred ground when you attempt to correct another’s servant so it requires and extra measure of kindness and humility.

  13. natrimony

    eli,

    I am not clear on what you mean by the playing field not being level. Also, I cannot assume that most of the people at IHOP are Christians, nor would I argue percentages.

  14. Rob

    eli,

    Thank you for your comments.

    You said about those who blog here, “You are risking very little of what is essential to your faith and your life in God.”

    But have observed about those at IHOP, “They have given everything they are and have to God…”

    I doubt you meant to imply that because they choose to live a certain lifestyle (often at the expense of others), that their commitment to God is somehow more complete and sincere. This sometimes seem to surface in the attitudes of some who interact here. I have read one IHOP staff member describe IHOP as a type of Protestant monastery. We could discuss monasticism in view of biblical teachings, but that is not the point.

    It would be unwise to start with the presupposition that the writers of this blog are somehow less spiritually vested in their ideas than the IHOP “missionaries”. We don’t know the sacrifices they have and are making for the cause of Christ.

    We shouldn’t assume that it is less.

    Nor should we assume that sincere commitment is a measure of the quality of held truths. Buddhist monks I imagine are quite sincere and committed, but apart from Christ, they are destined for eternal damnation.

  15. Rob,

    You don’t understand.


    There is one generation in all history which will be brought to “spiritual perfection.” This generation is the children of Mike Bickle’s generation.

    God has taken the “best of every bloodline that has ever existed”–including the bloodline of Peter, James, John, Paul, etc.–and selected “elected seeds” to be born into the families of the KCF congregation and other streams of the last days.

    These “elected seeds” from each bloodline are being “hand selected” by angels to be born in this generation. They were “predestined and foreknown” to be brought forth in this hour.

    Mike’s generation is to “raise them from the womb” to have supernatural experiences as the norm–seeing angels and demons, visiting heaven, having visions, and prophesying over one another. Such supernatural experiences are already being encouraged with preschool and elementary school children.

    This “chosen generation of history” is to be “the bride of Christ.” They are to reach the “full maturity of the God-man.” They are even supposed to be superior to James, Peter, John, David, etc. in heart, stature, and love for Jesus.

    source: Gruen report, page 59 pdf version

  16. Rob

    Bill,

    Right as always…I don’t understand.

    -r

  17. das1217

    Off topic – but don’t know where to put this.

    I thought Mike Bickle says he isn’t a prophet.

    Read Halfway down page and check this.

    http://www.ourchurch.com/view/?pageID=241873

    The date on this is 2005.

    Clarify for me please. Isn’t this acting as a prophet?

  18. das,

    Bickle is slippery. He gets around the title of prophet by claiming that all people can prophesy. And yet all people are not prophets–yes the logic is…uh…well…nonexistent here. And, this information could be claimed to come by way of dream or vision and therefore not be a “prophecy” per se. However, the last bit certainly seems to be a proclamation devoid of any dream/vision alibi when it reads:

    “Mike Bickle also stated that a casual reponse by the church will be detrimental to our state, California, and to USA.”

    But, this statement is really ambiguous enough to generalize away if someone did call him on the carpet as “prophecying”. You have to understand, guys like Bickle have learned how to use the prophetic for their own betterment. When Bickle is quoted as “prophecying” I guarantee it will be very general in scope and mostly “spiritualized” common sense. He has too much to lose to attach his name to any definite failed prophecies anymore. He’s learned that much at least from Bob Jones.

  19. thegreycoats

    das
    i dont care how he tries to slice it he is acting as a prophet. and that is for sure. he even sees imagery from God about His will for cali. hmmm if he says he knows Gods will for California and others then either he does or he doesn’t you know. no indeed he is wearing the mantle of a prophet no amount of slickness can hide that.

  20. Jarrod,

    I think we both know the lengths which some will go to to avoid accountability for prophecying–or delivering the account of a “prophetic dream”.

  21. Tim H

    Personal experience in this area… I would come up with a word that I truely believed was from the Lord, but then I also realized that I would…

    1) state the word so that it would not be a “thus saith the Lord”… that I way I wasn’t accountable if it were not to come to pass…

    2) the “word” never would give dates or timelines even though they might come to my mind…

    3) I (99%) of the time would pass it by in writing to the pastor of the church before I would give the word and frankly the pastor would read it so that if he gave it I was under his covering and it would have been tested by him. So whether it was a word or not it kept me from being responsible for it because the pastor is the one who would say it is right and correct…

    4) Most “words” were words of encouragment but based on scripture that was taken out of context. I would use a verse to proof the “word”.

    I have since repented of this action on my part, and have been enlightened to the truth. I was called a prophet by the local church and by the pastors but I was and am not one nor will I ever be a Prophet. It was purely my pride in that I at that time would allow myself to be called that. Jesus is our final Prophet and he has given His prophetic word to us through the scriptures.

  22. Tim H

    Now that I have posted the last comment, let me ask this…

    Acts 2:17-21 is of course from Joel 2:28. It staes that

    “In the last days, God says, I will pour out my spirit on ALL people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, and old men will dream dreams… etc.

    When is the last days? Is it at that time when Pentecost occured and only then? Does it mean the time period of only the Apostles? Is it the last days meaning the last days before the return of Jesus. When is the last days? What is that time span?

    Secondly, If I were on a deserted island and I found a bible and I began to read this account and didn’t have anybody but the Holy Spirit to teach me this section and all other scripture and I believe that, according to the scripture, that He will teach me the truth, wouldn’t it be proper of me to think that the last days are from pentecost until the return of Christ and that indeed prophecy will occur?

  23. Rob

    Nat,
    “But, this statement is really ambiguous enough to generalize away if someone did call him on the carpet as “prophecying”.”
    ******
    But make now mistake, the 1000 or so IHOP interns and staff will hang on every word and give it prophetic authority.
    -r

  24. das1217

    Thanks guys. I am really starting to dig into this prophet thing lately and I stumbled onto that. After re-reading that link, I guess I didn’t see anywhere in there that Mr. Bickle delivered that word himself (or was personally present I guess I should say) as a “thus saith the Lord”. Yet those kinds of words (visions-whatever) to me are speaking to the body of Christ. In my limited understanding – THAT IS TRUE PROPHECY. Being delivered to the body of Christ.
    It wasn’t just a word of encouragement (what some would call a prophesy) for an individual. There is where I struggle with the whole prophesy thing. I believe the Lord uses us to give words of encouragement, edification, etc. to other individuals. I agree with Tim H. in his questions of the last days. I agree with what you said Natrimony about hiding behind a fine line. Here is my next question.

    If as it says in 1 Cor 14:39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues (this being what Paul taught) – How is it to be determined if this is prophecy/vision/dream (which are three separate things in my mind) and who is it accountable to or is it accountable to anyone other than God?

    Sorry I know that sounds kind of befuddled, which my brain is right now. I will try to re-word that if you don’t get what I am trying to say.

  25. Rob

    Tim H,

    I don’t want to minimize any scripture. But I propose that if your scenario were to take place, (you on a deserted island) you would be so consumed with the rest of scripture that you would hardly notice Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17-21. I submit that the confusion is not from the scripture itself, but the search by folks to justify from the scriptures their experiences.
    ———
    As a point of example. Most people are lucky to read their Bibles through from cover to cover in a year, and this is a casual read. It takes time to get a broad perspective on scripture. But in the last year my son has hardly been able to get past 1 Cor. 14 and Joel 2 for the entire year. These scriptures are examined minutely, but unfortunately without the broad perspective that an exhaustive study of scripture would yield.

  26. thegreycoats

    das

    any thing that comes from the Almighty must be true. whether dream or prophecy or vision. yet if you read the prophets you will find all of these thing incorperated in the prophets. daniel dreams. isiah sees visions so does ezekiel and zechariah. amos speaks forth ect ect. all these things are prophetic. the only thing which can hold them accountable is the Word of God in the test of a true prophet found in dueteronomy. a prophet gots ta be right all the time or he is no prophet. problem is that these guys have bypassed the word of God and redifined prophecy as a whole. unfortunatley they still want their cake and they want to eat it as well. by redefining prophecy they lower the standard of accuracy wayne grudem has done them a great service in this issue. however they cant just take prophecy as they have redefined it simply because it isn’t flashy enough. it aint got no bite. only good stuff only edifying stuff half accurate and watered down. so they step in to the role of the real prophet and begin to prophecy warnings and the will of God for folks and states and countries . while hiding behind their new definition of prophet. as long as they stay in the realm of the grudem definition of prophecy they are fine they can get it wrong and such but as soon as they step out of that box they are toast cause even grudem says that if a man says he has the very words of God for you then he is in error cause that doesnt exist any more. as far as grudem is concerned . these guys say they have the will of God for the new generation and have no problem with forthtelling . bickel says in his book growing in the prophetic that grudem doesnt go far enough. why ? cause i think he knows that grudems definition of nt prophecy wont allow for the fast and loose stuff that he and joyner and jones and the rest like to endulge in. but they want the cover of the best theological argument in favor of their position, they just dont want the restraints of it.

  27. Tim H

    Thanks for the input…

  28. Tim H

    Thanks for the input…

  29. Grudem has definitely given the prophetic movement the backing of credible scholarship. However, they prove their resistance to an exegetically based practice by their continuance in disregarding the totality of his scholarship. They easily pick up on the view that prophecy can be wrong–“the Agabus Principle”. But, they are not so quick to concede that the office of prophet has ceased and become apostleship under the NT economy. Nor are Grudem’s Reformed views on soteriology easily swallowed. Nonetheless, Grudem goes on to provide for the cessation of apostleship in his book “The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today” arguing that to claim apostleship would be claiming the oracles of God for the entire church.

    These points fly in the face of the commonly known 5-fold ministry model which Neo-Montanists hold as dear as Calvinists might hold the 5 points of TULIP. Sadly, Grudem’s total picture is unsatisfactory for radical charismatics. They are happy to hijack an aspect of his scholarship when it suits their purposes but not when it contradicts them.

  30. Tim H

    Todays headline on Yahoo

    America’s favorite pastor
    Joel Osteen runs a megachurch, but he doesn’t talk much about God. » What’s his message?

    More ’60 Minutes’ on Joel Osteen Find more on Osteen’s ministry

  31. lbolm

    Tim H, “Secondly, If I were on a deserted island and I found a bible and I began to read this account and didn’t have anybody but the Holy Spirit to teach me this section and all other scripture and I believe that, according to the scripture, that He will teach me the truth, wouldn’t it be proper of me to think that the last days are from pentecost until the return of Christ and that indeed prophecy will occur? ”

    Well, Tim, what do you think?

    Without someone else to guide you ie; Martin Luther, Calvin, or any of the numerous commentaries ? Just the Holy Spirit, you and the Written Word !
    No input from some theologin.

    WOW!!

    Love in Christ Jesus,
    Jake

  32. Rob

    lbolm,

    “Without someone else to guide you ie; Martin Luther, Calvin, or any of the numerous commentaries ? Just the Holy Spirit, you and the Written Word !”

    —————————

    This is a fun topic on which to speculate, but not germane to Christianity. Jesus invested the gospel in the twelve Apostles, who entrusted it to others. This is the pattern in the New Testament and throughout history. Neither the Bible nor the Faith of the Bible arrived in 2008 independent of this pattern. We accept the final authority of the Bible, but we also recognize that the scriptures themselves tell us that orthodox faith is lived out in community. We call this the church.

  33. Tim H

    Listen, I was trying to make a point here but in reality the point is “moot” (sp) because we live in a time where we do have access to much informaton and there is no reason that we shouldn’t be able to learn what God is saying to us through His word and learn it in truth.

    Plus, what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit is true and we would learn the truth of Gods word and the bible will confirm with itself the truth.

    So, what I was trying to get to doesn’t matter and isn’t something that has to do with anything. Has nothing to do with the essentials of faith.

  34. Tim H

    I want to put this final cap on my position.

    I was brought to these blogs two+ years ago because the church I went to was getting heavily involved with IHOP. I believe that the Holy Spirit gave me discernment (red flags) that it wasn’t right. I have never been there and I will never go there. I am not under any hurt by any of the people that have been involved, so I am not bitter about some “experience” that went bad. It may very well be that it wasn’t right for me and it was His way of getting me to stay away from it and get back on track to where I belong.

    It has caused me to read and re-read and investigate what the word says about much of the ministries that come out of this “prophetic movement”, Third Wave camp. I have read both sides of the camp and I have been a participant of the camp and I believe that I am now where I need to be in my relationship with the Lord and in what I believe the truth of the scriptures has to say about these different ministries.

    For me, it all comes down to one point, my relationship with the Lord. Am I becoming Christlike and am I bearing good fruit. Not the fruit of the supernatural, signs and wonders, but fruit in my life so that when one looks at me they see what Christ has done in me and to me. If all of the gifts ceased today would people still see Christ and be drawn to him. The Spirit of God dwells in me and I in Him. Hopefully that is what people notice.

    I have a family member who rarely talks about the things of God verbally. He and his wife are not from a charismatic church, they don’t raise their hands in worship, they are not demonstrative at all, but I have seen more of Christ in their lives in a much deeper way because of how they live and love their family, neighbors, than I have in some who proport to be “spirit filled” and live under the “Third Wave” teachings. They give to the poor and they take care of people who are in need as the Lord leads. They know the word (very berean) and they are ALIVE and filled with the spirit.

    They have made an enormous impact on the people they have touched all in the name of Christ. They are truely free in Christ and they don’t have formulas, programs and the like. They are a great example of Christ and that is how I want to live my life for Jesus.

  35. lbolm

    TimH,
    My point exactly. With “access to much information” from so many voices, who would you choose to listen to.

    I think I would rather be on that deserted island with just me, The Holy Spirit and the Written Word.

    Oh well.

    I have got to go for now.
    will pick up on this next week.
    I hope your family is doing well.

    Love in Christ Jesus
    Jake

  36. Rob

    TimH,
    Thanks for the testimony. May Christ be glorified in you.
    -r

  37. kylegebhart

    new here – invited by devin.

    one quick thought: it would be nice (esp due to the potentiallay volitile content you traffic in) to have a simple 1,2,3 set-up on the front of this particular page so the ‘rules of the game’ are clear, etc.

    make it easier for comments, etc.

  38. Brian

    To all you critics of Tood bentley, and the likes. Miricals, signs and wonders, demon
    outcast, salvation. The bible says these sign shall follow them that believe, we shall do what Jesus did in his name, let me ask you how many have you helped, set free, healed and led to the lord.Rember, the healing and deliverence of peoble, is also a comand of God. Peoble are hurting in the world, lets reach them for jesus in his name by walking the way Jesus walked, Amen –

  39. Brian,

    Thanks for stopping by.

  40. Brian

    Hello again, just a testamony, i was diagnosed with paranoid skizofrenia,
    and on 3 different drugs. I was in a
    phyciatric hospital, and i got the papers
    to prof it, Jesus set me free. I got a good book written by a man called John osteen, that taught me to fill my heart with the word of God confess it with boldness supmit to God, and resist the devil, it worked. Now i dont live in fear anymore of the devil, and i know how powerfull the word of God is. God bless you all.
    Ps, please forgive me for my bad english.

  41. Brian,

    “And the likes”??? Are you for real?

  42. Brian,

    Just keep reading your bible and I know that God will bless you – He is able to keep you. Thanks for the testimony.

    -Bill

  43. cbmc

    I fear no theology however sound or well-developed can account for a God who’d make a brain that will someday stop working, leaving its owner suffering all the days of his life.

  44. cbmc,

    What exactly are you referring to? Alzheimer’s disease?

  45. Tim H

    What happened to ask away xp?????

  46. yeah what happend to ask away?

    I actually need some input on something that really shocked me tonight. I have some friends who were following the Lakeland revival and it grieved me because of the the lack of discernment that they showed. I actually found out today that one of those friends applied to Todd Bentley’s Bible School and was accepted. He is leaving I think perhaps at the end of August or September. I feel like I should warn him, but I have a feeling that will end a friendship. Actually it may end several friendships if he tells others. I think perhaps it might be wise to confront his pastor instead whom I do know. It seems like it is really his responsibility to tell this guy not to go. Any input or suggestions would be appreciated.

    peace,

    Daniel

  47. Daniel,

    First, its not a Bible School. Bentley even joked about using his bible at the recent Texas rally. It seems he hardly ever preaches from it.

    The bible tells us that we need to speak the trith in love. That means that you should share whats on your heart with your friend; if that ends the friendship, then it wasn’t much to start with.

    Your friends pastor should have input, if he is a true shepherd. You might want to show him what this “Bible School” is all about, but then again he may like it.

    http://freshfire.ca/?Id=989&pid=994

    Pray up!

    -Bill Fawcett
    Harrisonburg, VA

  48. Tim H,

    Moot point in 24 hours when the planets align.

  49. thegreycoats

    bills right. 24 hours and the planets dont just align. This one drifts into the sun. Don’t panic ask away will be there in a new form.

    Daniel warn your friend. Do you love your friend enough to risk his good opinion of you? you may indeed lose your friend. However you would lose him because your a good friend. Or you can keep quite and let your friend walk into pain just so you can keep his friendship. Which in my book makes you no friend at all.

  50. Tim H

    Daniel,

    I had the same thing happen to me where I had freinds (a whole family) who decided to attend Bethels School or Prophetic Ministry in Redding, California. Their son had been there, experienced the gold dust and other manifestations, and the mom and dad decided to go also for the summer. I did not get a chance to talk to them personally so I went to the pastor of the church. I shared with him my concerns.

    They understood what I was conveying and then I left it in their hands.

    But since your friend is still here I agree with TGC, talk to your friend first.

  51. Frenchie

    Somebody once told me that a friend says the real things, and I’d have to agree with that. You need to warn your friend of what he is getting into. It might be hard and painful to do, but it’s still the right thing. Worse case senario, you loose that friend, but who knows, maybe he’ll listen. And even if he doesn’t, what you’ll say to him might have an impact further down the road.
    But having recently lost friends because of the stand I took, I know how hard it can be, so know that I’ll be praying for wisdom for you in this situation.

  52. Bill,

    I just read those list of teachings and that is exactly the kind of hype and craziness he believes is of God. I just feel so sorry for him. You got to know this guy he is humble and genuine, he is not a zealot or anything like that. He is not proud, he loves God and really thinks that this is a “God Thing”.

    I am seeking God on how to approach him perhaps someone on here knows of a list of the most crucial key points that might help me to get his attention. My worst fear would be if after he experiences that school, that he will lose his faith in God altogether. I think approaching the pastor is irrelevant because he is already lacking discernment and I doubt he will hear me out. My only hope is that I can plant a few seeds of warning that his mind can recall when things start getting really weird over there.

    peace,

    Daniel

  53. thegreycoats

    if your friend is humble then he will at least here you out. my recommendation is that you find a book called counterfiet revival by hank hanagraff. now i know he aint the top of most peoples list but the book is solid and well documented. second find any book by Charles spurgeon or John piper and give that to him as well. truth in the heart fights well against pitiful lies. and pray pray pray. God bless you.

    Key points
    1. The teachings of Todd bentley are out right heresy. God never tells us to turn our attention away from Himself and place our trust in angels.
    2. Going to the third heaven through visualization is of the occult not Christ. and even if you did Go you would not be allowed to talk about it since talking about it is forbidden by God in the scriptures.
    3just because folks may get healed and say Jesus dont make them right. many false prophets will and have come in His name.
    4 this movement encourages men to let go of reason and look to experience alone to be their guide. they teach a mystical way of reading the scriptures which takes the word out of context and can be twisted to say whatever they will it to.
    5. Nothing is deeper in experience than a good long look at the cross. a good hard look at a dying God who says this is for you. I do it so that you may live in my presence forever and be filled with joy everlasting. I do it because i want to love you. i do it while you hate me, and because someone must pay for your insane hatred of My glory. That is a deep experience. Bentley can keep his emma the magic money angel and his partial healings. As for me My God showed me a cross and said Wait here until I return. so Here i stand I can do no other.

    peace and love.

  54. cheryl U.

    tgc,

    “As for me My God showed me a cross and said Wait here until I return. so Here i stand I can do no other. ”

    I want to thank you and encourage you for your constant stand on the very basics of Christianity and for your encouraging articles to your fellow Christians. You are a blessing to many I am sure.

  55. Mary B

    Tim H. you said:
    “the mom and dad decided to go all summer”

    Don’t these people have mortgages and bills to pay? How do these people just pick up and go without any financial planning?

  56. TimH

    Mary B,

    They have money!

    The mom was actually on staff at the church as well.

    This really surprised me because there were few youth that was taken to a Toronto Blessing seminar here in the Pacific Northwest by some other folks that were (notice “were”) in the church and after they got back there had been some pretty messing prophetic words that had been given. The main pastorial staff, including this mom, were so upset that they even called Canada (not sure if it was actually Toronto) to question these prophecies and they were told that they (the staff) were correct and that they should throw the prophecies out. Tested they didn’t pass. The people that took the youth are no longer at the church either. Apparently it was a small mess. The staff also try to be very careful about dominion theology, Latter Rain theology, etc., but somehow this is getting past them.

    I basically asked them (the church) their position on these teachings including the Lakeland Revival. The senior pastor responded and said that “his knickers were in a knot” about Lakeland and they did not support the theology.

    I then asked them if this is the case how could you support any ministry that falls in this area of doctrine? I sent them the link to Bethel with some of their teachings. There has been no response. By then the parents had left for the summer and now the church will have to deal with it when they get back.

  57. Daniel,

    Sometimes it hits even closer to home. That’s the nature of the gospel.

    “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.”

    I’ve lost a few close friends myself.

    -Bill

  58. Tim H.
    Thanks for your comments on February 9th. They really helped me when I was working all this out in my mind. So the things that people say do have an effect and can sway people, or help them to look at things in a different way. I would highly reccomend speaking the truth in love. I have been doing that in my church, and it hasn’t been too bad. Even though I am stepping down from ministry because of this, and will be moving on – it didn’t deteriorate into something nasty. I honestly don’t know what relationships will survive, and which won’t. So I am going through that too. I expect to loose some friendships because of this. But I guess I am trying to be as authentic a Christian as I can, and that means calling them as I see them. I pray all the time for the Lord to reveal the truth to me and so far he has said hold on to what the bible and scriptures for dearlife, and accept no substitute gospels. I have to share my experience with others, and then they have to make their own decisions.
    SFB

  59. TimH

    SFB,

    Wow, you are very welcome. I had to go back and read what you were refering to. I am glad that I made some sense and it was helpful.

    I pray all the time for the Lord to reveal the truth to me and so far he has said hold on to what the bible and scriptures for dearlife, and accept no substitute gospels. I have to share my experience with others, and then they have to make their own decisions.

    Amen! That is all we can do, share the truth and leave it in the Lords hands to deal with each person.

    Blessings
    Tim H

  60. “For me, it all comes down to one point, my relationship with the Lord. Am I becoming Christlike and am I bearing good fruit. Not the fruit of the supernatural, signs and wonders, but fruit in my life so that when one looks at me they see what Christ has done in me and to me. If all of the gifts ceased today would people still see Christ and be drawn to him. The Spirit of God dwells in me and I in Him. Hopefully that is what people notice.I have a family member who rarely talks about the things of God verbally. He and his wife are not from a charismatic church, they don’t raise their hands in worship, they are not demonstrative at all, but I have seen more of Christ in their lives in a much deeper way because of how they live and love their family, neighbors ”
    Tim H. February 9th, 2008

    This made alot of sense to me. I have strong desire to be fruity in the way you spoke of. That couple you talked about came to my mind alot in the last few months.

    SFb

  61. thanks everyone for the response to my comment, that was very helpful for me.

    A thought occurred to me that maybe God will bring a third wave….If He does, I think the third wave would be a return preaching Christ Crucified w/ power. In other words it would be a return to seeing the supernatural happen(spiritual blind eyes opening) at the preaching & teaching of His Word. I know that Calvary Chapel has had much fruit by “simply teaching the Bible, simply” and I think God is going to institute a new method of evangelism. Really not a new method, but as we get our lost friends and loved ones to simply read the Bible for themselves they will be saved. We have actually been experiencing this in our church already, we give out Bibles and tell the newcomers to start reading in Matthew and just about all of them get saved.

    peace,

    Daniel

  62. now i’m really glad Jesus was Middle Eastern and much of what He said – wasn’t considered logical.

  63. windy eberly

    phew, i thought it was just me. if anyone wants a quick example of this just talk to the baby Jesus smokers.

  64. Hi – I stumbled on your oage by mistake. I was searching in Bing for Antivirus software that I had already purchased when I came upon your site, I have to say your page is really cool I just love the theme, its amazing!. I don’t have the time today to totally read your site but I bookmarked it and also signed up for your RSS feed. I’ll back around in a day or two. Thanks again for a great site.

  65. Susan Young

    Dear Grey Coats,

    Thanks for your voice. I find your site intelligent and refreshing and appreciate your regard for scripture. I was wrapped up in the whole movement for about 5 years and was always feeling that something wasn’t right but blamed myself for being overly critical.
    The experience has given me a desire to be a faithful Berean and test everything. I realize now that the discomfort was the Holy Spirit and that He is faithful to confirm His Word . As I John 4:1 admonishes, “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.”

    God bless you as you continue to earnestly contend for our precious faith!

  66. IWanttheruth

    Susan come weigh in here
    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/ and share some of your experience or here
    http://slaughteringthesheep.wordpress.com/
    or here
    http://mkayla.wordpress.com/

  67. IWanttheruth

    http://mkayla.wordpress.com/

    Susan come share some of your experience here…

  68. Thanks a lot Susan. So sorry we’re slacking on the blog right now. Amazingly it is still receiving in the hundreds of hits a day. Thanks for the feedback.

  69. IMPORTANT!!!

    Under the topic :The Vindication of E. Gruen” There is a post by me

    TimH
    November 7, 2010 at 7:09 am

    I need it deleted stat please. It is important…. Thank you
    Please confirn to my e-mail that this has been done….

  70. Adrian Dignam

    I would like to read Gruen’s article on the Aberrant Practices of the KCF, but I cannot locate it. Can you please email me a pdf or provide a link that actually works?

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