Tag Archives: Third Wave Charismatic Movement

Julie’s story part 2

There is such a shocking lack of knowledge as to how IHOP’s vision was birthed, it’s driving me crazy! So, I want to give a little more insight into the going’s on behind Kansas City Fellowship (early IHOP) becoming a Vineyard.

My husband and I had been away from the church (Kansas City Fellowship) for approximately 3 or 4 months praying earnestly for the leadership at KCF to repent. Actually, by this time, the name had changed to Metro Christian Fellowship, having first been known as South Kansas City Fellowship, then Kansas City Fellowship, then Metro Christian. We expected their repentance to be forthcoming at any day. I mean, with the damning report that Ernie Gruen had just written, there was no defending the current prophetic, and “let’s take over the city”, teaching that had become common place by then. This was the spring of 1990. I remember it well because I was well along in my pregnancy with my fourth child.

We were told that “Mike’s going to repent” so be sure to be there.  “Major anouncement at the church, don’t miss it.” These were the encouragements we received from our friends, the friends we had been warning regarding the error that had crept in.

So, we went to this meeting with high expectations. We were expecting the mood to be somber, sober, serious, repentant, etc. Nothing could have prepared us for what we witnessed that night.

First of all, the place was PACKED. Not a seat in the house remained empty.  People standing in the back as well. I think there were between 1500 and 2000 people in attendance.

After a very celebratory worship service, Mike began to repeat some of the prophetic history which brought the church into existence in the first place. Augustine’s prophecies (although, by this time, I think his name had ceased to be mentioned), Bob Jones’s prophecies, etc. How God had brought the prophetic into our midst – but it was still in it’s infancy. Still young and messy and some messes have occurred. Soooo, it was time to set the prophetic down, come under the umbrella of the Vineyard. The prophets would still minister to the leadership behind closed doors, but it was necessary for them to mature in their anointings.

This was the gist of the meeting. That the leadership was just delighted to be joining hands with John Wimber and Co.  It was going to be a great future in God. Blah blah blah.

Even stating that the rift between Mike and Ernie was hurting the body and that it needed to be resolved as soon as possible. That Ernie Gruen had misrepresented the prophetic movement, but some of the things he said were true: there was a spiritual elitistism that needed to be eradicated. Ernie was on board with this current move by the church leadership to become a Vineyard, and so the proposed meeting (hearing?) before the agreed upon leaders from around the country was no longer necessary. The error of the prophetic was in check with the setting down of the prophets.

The mood reminded me of a high school pep rally. Everyone seemed relieved and elated. No longer was the church going to be considered “cultish.” John Wimber had ridden in on a white horse, and they had dodged a bullet. They were becoming a respectable Vineyard; the loony prophetic was going to become less visual and less loony; and so on, and so forth.

At the end of Mike’s lengthy announcement, he opened up the microphone for questions.  When my husband looked at me and said “I’m going up,” my heart rose to my throat and stayed there until we left. I knew that the happy atmosphere was going to be dampered a little once my husband took the mic.

Person after person got up and asked numerous, non-threatening questions, of the legistical variety. Will the other locations join, too? Would Mike’s position change? How will this affect the church type questions.

My husband was one of the last in line that night. Perhaps he was the last. He first asked Mike if the men who had originally been agreed upon to “hear” the accusations  that were brought against Mike, if they were honorable and capable of judging these teachings, etc.  Mike agreed that they, in fact, were honorable men. (All of the men chosen for this task were from the charismatic side of the isle, btw).  He then asked Mike why he wouldn’t just submit to their “hearing” instead of, essentially, hiding behind John Wimber. That is when the mood in the room suddenly changed. It felt hostile, and I swear, you could hear a pin drop. But, my heart was in my throat and I just wanted to get out of there, so, who knows what other people felt. At this point, my husband challenged Mike regarding these doctrines NOT coming into line with the gospel of Jesus Christ. He handed the mic back and began walking back to me.

Many, many of our friends were there. Some of our best friends were also in attendance, and they were not really sure how to take all of this stuff. We had given them our take, yet they were still quite loyal to the church/Mike. Heck, we were still loyal. We were just waiting for everyone to repent and BELIEVE the truth and get free of all this garbage.  This was our church, for crying out loud. These were our leaders and the devil had pulled the wool over their eyes!

As my husband was leaving the stage, Mike turned to the sound man, and told him to get rid of what my husband had just said. “Erase that part.” This is what our friends heard. They were so appalled, it became the beginning of the end of their stay at KCF. So began my first knowledge of historical revisionism at the hands of KCF.

One person came up and thanked my husband. Everyone else treated us like the plague. Indeed, for many years, my husband was kept at arms length by those still loyal to Mike. Now, one can dispute whether or not Mike had the tape erased. But, there are people, to this day, who remember my husband standing up and standing against Mike Bickle. No one ever did that! I think it went down the same memory hole with the prophecies regarding Pat Bickle getting healed. We knew, then, that they weren’t going to be repenting anytime soon.

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Good examples from IHOP of historical revisionism.

Special thanks to IHOP who’s copy right is the right to copy , and Let us reason.org

This is my modest attempt at showing you how the history of this movement is being revised. While I am sure many will not be impressed with the effort all I am asking is that we be honest. If you can read this and truly say IHOP has not been doctoring it’s past then fine , but if this raises questions in your mind then …

For those of you who don’t know this is taken from Ihops affirmations and denials page. the bold italics are mine. the other italics are quotes and historical info.

Affirmations and Denials

The Manifest Sons of God Theology

We Affirm all born-again believers will be “manifest” as sons of God after the second coming of Christ.

We Deny that we will experience the fullness of our inheritance as sons of God before Jesus returns.

Explanation: Some uphold the false teaching that in this age believers can have faith that will enable them to attain to qualities of life that are reserved only for believers in the resurrection. ( Where would they get that idea from ? lets ask Mike )

“There is a dimension that is coming, and now is, that we have no frame of reference for and most of us think that we do.” “… and they (apostles, prophets) do things that you have no frame of reference for understanding because, believe me, what’s going to be coming down in the next twenty years you and I have no frame of reference for understanding. It is going to be so unusual you are not going to be able to look at the word for every manifestation and find one there because the Spirit of the Lord has so many manifestations that you and I know nothing about.”

I believe that God is going to allow us to see and to even partake in this restoration, this is a major statement and I want you to pay attention closely, to the restoration of the New Testament standard… I believe that God is going to renovate the entire understanding of what Christianity is in the nations of the Earth. I believe that the way that 99 per cent of us across the world as believers understand Christianity, in 20 years there will be a totally different understanding of what Christianity is from what it is right now. I believe the understanding of it, the standard of life and the expression of Christianity as we know it, I believe God is going to restore it in the Earth in this generation”

( The arrogance of this statement is almost mind blowing. 99% of what all Christians believe ??? Lets hope substitutionary atonement is the other 1 %.  Not to mention the doctrine of the Holy Trinity , the divinity of Christ,  our union with Christ , etc, etc…. This begs the question what exactly is contained in that tiny 1 % that will remain the same ? Will the rest of the church be truly keen on jettisoning 99% of what they believe ? The answer to that question is a clear no.  Thats why we have the visions of the civil war within the church . )

“God intends us to be like gods, he intends us to be like the Son of God. … God has conceived in His heart of a plan to make a race of men that would live like gods on the Earth. He has conceived in His heart to have Sons that would live like His Son, the Lord Jesus lived… That we were to be on earth the extension and manifestation of God’s life in heaven. …When a person comes up and declares what Sonship is about, the religious community comes up and says “blasphemy!” That’s what they did to Jesus. The religious mind will always call this heresy. When the religious mind comes in contact with the revelation of what a Son of God is they will always say it is not right because it’s too high.”

(The religious said Jesus blasphemed because He said He was equal to God not because He talked about the true meaning of sonship. )

The Latter Rain

We Affirm that the Church will experience the greatest outpouring of the Spirit in history before Jesus returns (Joel 2:28–32). This outpouring will result in a great ingathering of souls and a renewing of the Church so that it walks in godliness as declared in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt. 5:1–7:28). We affirm the presence of the fivefold ministry for the equipping of the saints (Eph. 4:11–13).

We Deny the distinctive doctrines that go beyond Scripture that are often associated with the Latter Rain theology that was popularized in the 1950s.

Explanation: Some have wrongly identified our ministry today with the false teachings that were popularized by some in the Latter Rain movement. At no time in the past did we have any relationship with this movement.

(hmm well lets see if this statement holds water, I know William Branham and Paul Cain were documented propagators of latter rain theology lets see If Mike has anything to say about them.)


Mike Bickle has stated that he does not recognize the current leaders as full-fledged prophets: “There’s no one in our midst that we give the title “prophet.” The only one I would feel comfortable of giving that office would be Paul Cain, but he refuses to accept it.”

Some of Cain’s beliefs are certainly unheard of in the history of our faith, they are new founded in the Latter Rain teachings of the late 40’s. “If you’re really in the vine and you’re the branch, then the life sip from the Son of the living God keeps you from cancer, keeps you from dying, keeps you from death … Not only will they not have diseases, they will also not die. They will have the kind of imperishable bodies that are talked about in the 15th chapter of Corinthians … this army is invincible. If you have intimacy with God, they can’t kill you. they just can’t. There’- something about you; you’re connected to that vine; you’re just so close to him. oh, my friends, they can’t kill you.” ( Paul Cain, “Joel’s Army,” cited in Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Shawnee, KS: Full Faith Church of Love, 1990, p. 218)

Paul Cain was part of the healing revival of the mid 1940’s when he was 18 years old. During that time his fellow ministers were William Branham, Jack Coe, T.L. Osborne, and A.A. Allen, etc. He saw the excesses of that movement and backed away from it until 1987 when the Kansas City Fellowship’s leaders Mike Bickle and Bob Jones felt impressed to serve Paul Cain and his ministry in any way they could. Bob Jones said “the Lord named Paul Cain’s ministry, “The terror of the Lord.” Why this name? Paul Cain is reported to be able to reveal peoples hidden sins and details of their lives supernaturally. He predicted an earthquake and it happened! Also people report surges of electrical power that blow out circuits.

In 1987 Cain met with the leadership of Kansas City Fellowship and they received him as a father. Grace Ministry’s other major prophet, Bob Jones, said that Cain’s ministry is called by God “the terror of the Lord,” or “the jealousy of God.” He called Cain “the most anointed prophet that’s in the world today.” “’ Cain, in turn, his called William Branham “the greatest prophet who ever lived.” This would make Branham greater than Elijah, Elisha, Jeremiah, Daniel, David, and John the Baptist, just to name a few. Considering the occult manifestations and false doctrines that characterized Branham’s work, one must question whether Cain himself understands truth. This also calls into question Jones’ claims about Cain.(Media Spotlight , Al Dager)

“You know this message is 35 years old and I’m just preaching it again, Thank God I’ve found somebody to preach it to. I told you about the vision, what I’ve had… See, I’ve been wanting to share this so long and find somebody -how would you like to have something on the back burner for 35 years and nobody had any – boy this is, I mean this isn’t leftovers. I mean this has been hot with me all these years, but everywhere I tried to preach it, they cooked my goose. Don’t you boo me. This kind of fiery preaching is a lost art today except in a very mild degree.” (Joel’s Army cassette from Kansas city prophets)

The source of this message (35 years at the time said) is none other than the latter Rain heresy of which many have not let go of but continue to promote vigorously. “For quite a while I have been embarrassed to say anything about the latter rain, because you are associated and identified with something that people don’t seem to appreciate in certain evangelical circles. So I have played it cool and haven’t said much about it. But I don’t care what they think any more… I believe we are going to have the latter rain and I am looking forward to it.” (Paul Cain, Toronto church on May 28, 1995)

Cain said in 1989 that God was raising a new standard and the understanding of Christianity that would radically change us and our generation God has him to have a role in establishing this New Order of Christianity.

That God is offering them a “greater privilege than was ever offered to any people of any generation at any time from Adam clear down through the end of the millennium”; and that they are “gonna have more than just a little omnipotent surge — you’re gonna behold that glory and become that glory.” (Bob Jones and Paul Cain, “Selections from the Kansas City Prophets,” audio, from Hank Hanegraaff, Counterfeit Revival, 1997)

The fact of the matter is that Cain and other so-called Kansas City prophets should have never been placed into an area of Christian leadership in the first place.  Cain (who has also claimed trips to heaven) has a questionable testimony, has demonstrated a lengthy absence of Christian service in his life, and he has called the late William Branham, with whom he once had an association, “the greatest prophet who ever lived.” Branham, however, denied the historic doctrine of the Trinity (even claiming it comes from the devil), and taught extensive error, including the he that the zodiac and Egyptian pyramids are on par with the authority of Scripture. 34  Branham taught what has now become known as the “Serpent Seed” doctrine that is popular with various neo-Nazi and “Christian” identity cults — that the Bible’s Cain was produced through a sexual coupling between the serpent in the Garden of Eden and Eve. 35

Dominion Theology

We Affirm that God’s purpose is for Jesus to come back to fully establish His kingdom rule over all the earth. After the second coming, the saints will rule the earth under the leadership of Jesus Christ when He sets up His government on earth in the millennial kingdom (1 Cor. 6:2; Rev. 5:10; 20:3–6). We believe that believers in this age are called to serve Jesus in politics and to help establish righteousness and justice in legislation. We do not have the assurance that all laws and governments will be changed until after the second coming of Jesus to establish His millennial kingdom.

We Deny that the Church will take over all the governments of the earth before the return of Christ.

Explanation: Some believe and teach that all governments on earth will be transformed by the Church before the second coming of Jesus.

While this is a nice albeit brief denial of dominion theology It doesn’t really tell the reader what dominion theology truly is. Not all dominionists fall in the same category nor do they believe all the same things. Don’t take my word for it. Here is a quote from Keith Gibson on the issue.

“Essentially, dominion theology arises from a distorted interpretation of Romans 8:19 and a few other passages. It teaches that a perfected, glorified church will usher in the kingdom of God by taking dominion over the world. To this end, the church must be placed in order by coming under the authority of present-day apostles and prophets. Many of these prophets are foretelling a great civil war that will take place within the church between the “grays”, associated with the brain or gray matter who focus on the scripture, and the “blues”, those associated with the sky who are open to new revelation. This is a gross oversimplification and not all dominionists would accept all that was just said but these are many of the central tenants of the movement.

Associated with this major teaching are a host of other doctrines and practices necessary to facilitate the rise of this perfected body of Christ. These can be found interspersed throughout the writings and messages of those in the movement.

It is taught that Christ must be incarnated within the church before He can return. The church will literally become the fullness of Christ. Francis Frangipane states, “When the Spirit of Christ comes into the physical world, He must enter through a physical body…When Christ first entered our world as a child, it was Mary whom God chose to give Christ birth….God is preparing us as He did Mary to give birth to the ministry of His Son. Even now, in the spiritual womb of the virgin church, the holy purpose of Christ is growing, awaiting maturity; ready to be born in power in the timing of God….the virgin Church is “in labor and in pain to give birth” (Rev. 12:1-2)…I say to you, once again, the virgin is with child. Before Jesus Himself returns, the last virgin Church shall become pregnant with the promise of God. Out of her travail, the Body of Christ shall come forth, raised to the full stature of its Head, the Lord Jesus. Corporately manifested in holiness, power and love, the Bride of Christ shall arise.” (Francis Frangipane, “In the Presence of God”, 1994 emphasis mine) But it must be noted that, in context, the manifestation of the sons of God spoken of in Romans 8 does not occur until the redemption of the body at the resurrection. The scriptures are clear that it is Christ who brings the kingdom not the church.”

Now I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that latter rain and dominion theology are just about the same thing. By that I mean they include one another. I have already shown that Ihop has indeed been connected to latter rain teachers like Paul Cain . Even though they say they have not.  You decide .

Joel’s Army

We Affirm that the army in Joel 2:1–11 was an ungodly Babylonian army that destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. We believe that this passage has a double fulfillment in that it also points to the Antichrist’s army that will attack Israel at the end of the age. We affirm that Joel was prophesying of the lifestyle of godly believers in Joel 2:12–17.

We Deny that Joel 2:1–11 describes the end-time Church.

Explanation: The term “Joel’s army” has been used to signify the people who walk out the principles of prayer with fasting as taught in Joel 2:12–17. The term has been used much like “Joseph Company,” “Gideon Band,” or “David Company” to signify the people who embraced the godly qualities that Joel taught about prayer, fasting, and wholehearted obedience. Paul Cain had a prophetic word about a “Joel’s army in training,” referring to a group of people who would give themselves to prayer and fasting according to Joel 2:12–17. When used like this, “Joel’s army” does not refer specifically to the destroying army mentioned in Joel 2:1–11, but to people who walk out the Joel 2:12–17 lifestyle. The misunderstanding comes from giving the title “Joel’s army” to both the destroying army (Joel 2:1–11) and the group of people who give themselves to fasting and prayer (Joel 2:12–17).

Hmmm… maybe so , but I am not convinced. Since I have already established a link to Bickle and Paul Cain who is the coiner of the phrase Joel’s army lets look at some historical quotes.

Cains Joel’s army is starting to take shape as he explains “Many years ago,.. I have came to the crossroads of life and I saw a vision of an illuminated billboard on which was written: Joel’s army in training. “It was on these crossroads with an arrow pointing to the spot-though there was no building on it then! I believe God has shown me that here he is going to raise up an army. This army is not a destructive army but a deliverance army…”( David Ptyche’s, Some Said It Thundered, p.132)

While this is what he may like it to be,  the biblical view is an army of destruction which God himself destroys in the end.

There seems to be much double speak coming from the prophets of the Latter Rain camp.

Jack Deere describes Joel 2 it is hardly to deliver “When this army comes, He says it’s large and it’s mighty. It’s so mighty that there’s never been anything like it before…‘begin the slaughter and begin it in the temple and begin it with the elders, the leaders of my people.’ And they walk through the land and they start and they begin to slaughter and you know it’s already started with the biggest names in His household? He has already started the slaughter…and it is coming now among the Church.” ( It Sounds Like the Mother of All Battles, Jack Deere, VMI, Joel’s Army, 1990, “Joel’s Army”)

The only thing that I seem to notice getting slaughtered in the church today is correct doctrine and the fact is they don’t seem to care.

Jack Deere supports Paul Cain and Bob Jones, and is convinced they are the two prophets of Revelation. He alleges that Cain is virtually right all the time. “You see why we’re excited about someone like Paul Cain or Bob Jones coming on the scene? Or others that we’ve met…you know those two powerful witnesses in Revelation 11:3? You know what – they are first and foremost? They are prophets. He said they will prophesy for 1,260 days. He’s going to end the last days just before His Son returns with a prophetic movement that will sweep the entire face of the earth and will eclipse anything we have ever seen before…the significance of these signs and wonders…But they don’t just happen on the earth. They come because they are prayed for and they are predicted by God’s people.” (Jack Deere, “Joel’s Army”)

Revelation 11 “… And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. … And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. … These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.” (Jack Deere, “Joel’s Army”)

Rick Joyner speaks of a civil war inside the Church. The blues battling the grays in his end-time scenario that is likened to the American Civil war. It is clear from his writings that he is speaking of the new thing that is to be the standard. Those who fight against it are holding on to the old. It’s been said birds of the same feather flock together. Cain is a joint partner in writing Joyner’s morning star Journal.  (wonder why we called ourselves the grey coats)

Frangipane agrees with an army that, as “it follows Christ, initiates spiritual warfare against the various gates of Hell.” … “There are growing number of churches around the world who are being gathered together by the Lord for War”(The Three Battlegrounds, Francis Frangipane p124,128)

http://www.letusreason.org/latrain5.htm

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A great example of Historical revisionism.

Does it look like Crowder cares one ounce about the real history behind Dowie ?

Does he even come close to telling the historical story ?

Is Crowder telling us some big whoppers ?

See my point is clear. Most folks don’t know about Dowie nor will they look him up. They trust Crowder to have integrity as a man of God. Does he look like he has any integrity ?

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Filed under charismatic, Heresy, prophetic