The Vindication of E. Gruen

This is something that we had just stumbled upon, and really ended up being a task that nobody (except God) had planned for.

The Story:

Shortly after this blog was started, I was doing some research online about Mike Bickle. Then I stumbled upon the Wikipedia page that was made about Mike Bickle. On it, a man named Ernie Gruen was mentioned as a critic of Bickle, but then the site said that Gruen had recanted his critiques and allegedly said that he was “deceived and a deceiver”. That made me a little more curious about the situation. In the early 80’s Ernie Gruen wrote a report warning others about the abuses of Mike Bickle and the Kansas City Prophets. If you’ve never heard of the Kansas City Prophets, you may have heard of the International House of Prayer (I.H.O.P), Morningstar, “The Call” with Lou Engle, and OneThing. If you are familiar with these movements, they are all associated with the Kansas City Prophets. Now, simply google the Kansas City Prophets, and see for yourself who they are, and what they do. Ernie Gruen is not the only man to confront the false teachings (and false hope) that these men dish out. Other more well-known men are Dr. John Macarthur who wrote “Charismatic Chaos”, and Hank Hanegraff with his book “Counterfeit Revival”. As I fished around on the internet, I couldn’t find much on Mr. Gruen, so of course this got even more interesting. Then, sure enough. I find Ernie Gruen himself. I found his website, and his e-mail is plastered right there on the home page. Apparently many others who have found confirmation with their own convictions concerning the 3rd wave charismatic movement in the Ernie Gruen Report have already contacted him and gotten questions answered about the situation by the man himself. Since I had really only known about Ernie’s report for a few days, I wasn’t sure how I could best use my opportunity to correspond with him. So the following happened. Here is a compilation of all the materials that have developed since the saga began.

Blog #1- The Infamous Ernie Gruen Report. January, 18th 2008.

I am really happy that I got a hold of this. There is some controversy surrounding this document, not only because of it’s extensive documentation of abuses done under the ministry of Mike Bickle, but also because Gruen supposedly wrote a city-wide apology for the report claiming that he was a “deceived deceiver”. I have not been able to get that info affirmed, it is simply what is claimed in this Mike Bickle wikipedia page. But I have found Ernie’s e-mail, and am awaiting a response.

The Ernie Gruen report is 233 pages full of info from financial issues to examples of abusive prophecy.

This letter is long, and Ernie is a Christian, and I can’t exactly pinpoint all of his doctrinal beliefs, but this document, by far is a major blemish on the “Kansas City prophets” record.

Also, if Ernie did in fact say that he was wrong in this report, the documentation still remains of personal testimonies, and evidence of edited tapes. I haven’t read the entire document, but what I have read doesn’t surprise me, and also, Ernie isn’t the only guy to have reported these sort of things within the movement.

So, here I gladly present perhaps the best document concerning Mike Bickle and his entourage’s history.

Aberrent Practices – By Ernie Gruen

If you have the time, and the paper, you should print this out. It is also available for download here.

The people who published the report to their website don’t seem to be keeping the site up anymore. I tried to find out info on them and their beliefs but was unable to. So I can’t say if I do, or don’t endorse them.

If Ernie returns by e-mail, I will post the response.

Blog #2- BIG UPDATE, ERNIE GRUEN’S RESPONSE TO MY E-MAIL.- January 18th, 2008

Alright, everyone knows that I found this statement about Ernie Gruen on Mike Bickle’s wikipedia page:

“Bickle’s ministry has historically been very controversial, even within the charismatic movement. This controversy was heightened when charismatic pastor Ernie Gruen released a report in 1990 documenting what he considered to be many aberrant practices in Kansas City. Ernie Gruen wrote a citywide letter saying that he was sorry for writing what had come to be known as the Ernie Gruen Report. In an open letter in the early 1990s Gruen referred to himself as deceived and a deceiver.”

On a side note this wikipedia page is also linked off of the International House Of Prayer’s wikipedia page. So that sort of tells me that both links were made by IHOP.

So, I found Ernie Gruen’s E-mail, and sent the following:

Hello Brother, Grace and Peace to you.
I have been researching the “Kansas City Prophets” because half of my church split and moved to the “International House of Prayer” where Mike Bickle is the pastor. I came across something known as the “Ernie Gruen Report” at this website:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bickle
The site claims that you “wrote a citywide letter saying that he was sorry for writing what had come to be known as the Ernie Gruen Report. In an open letter in the early 1990s Gruen referred to himself as deceived and a deceiver.”
The site did not provide documentation of your alleged words. So I want to ask if you really did say you were sorry for the letter, and perhaps if there is still a chance of me reading the letter if it exists.
I do not wish to stir up any controversy or anything.

God bless you, and your ministry.

in Christ,
Devin Murphy

ERNIE’S RESPONSE:

NO, I DID NOT SEND A LETTER APOLOGIZING, THAT IS A TOTAL LIE.

SEE ATTACHMENT.

Attachment:

I am convinced that Bob Jones has a familiar spirit, a demon of divination, and is into the occult. He is just absolutely weird. ACTS 16;16-18Acts 16:16–Now it happened, as we went to prayer,that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us,

who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling.

17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying,

“These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.”

18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit,

“I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.”

And he came out that very hour. NKJV

Also read Jeremiah 23:13-32

————————————————————-

And if people don’t believe me, they can e-mail Ernie themselves.

So it has been confirmed by the original source that the Infamous Ernie Gruen Report was never apologized for. And that whoever is keeping up Mike Bickle’s wikipedia page is either lying, or was lied to. There is no city-wide letter that Ernie Gruen wrote apologizing for the letter. None has ever turned up to substantiate the claim.

I.H.O.P is guilty until proven innocent.

Blog #3 More Answers From an Authority. January 27th, 2008- Posted by Natrimony

After Devin’s initial contact with Pastor Gruen I decided to follow his lead and e-mail him with some questions of my own. Pastor Gruen obliged my inquiry. His answers are short but comprehensive. I have reprinted my letter plus Pastor Gruen’s reply here in its entirety, without any editing. He also attached a warning against Bob Jones which is identical to the one he sent to Devin earlier reprinted on BIG UPDATE, ERNIE GRUEN’S RESPONSE TO MY E_MAIL. I did not include the attachment.

Also, Pastor Gruen has agreed to an interview with thegreycoats. Jarrod, Devin, and I are in the process of compiling questions which we hope to have a transcript of answers to sometime in the near future. We hope the answers will be refreshingly radical in their reformative effect on those who have bought into the IHOP and modern prophetic movements. But, in the meantime, this update must suffice for everyone tracking the relevance of The Infamous Ernie Gruen Report.

My letter:

Hello Pastor Gruen,

My friend Devin recently e-mailed you in reference to your report detailing aberrant practises in the Kansas City Fellowship during the late ’80’s and early 90’s. I have also come across an article on the blog “Thoughts and Ponderings” by someone who claims to be your grandson. He says that, “To sum up all of this, I would like to close with a conversation I had with my grandfather, Ernie Gruen. After being troubled by all that I have read about Mike Bickle, IHOP, and KCF, I finally confronted the man who confronted Mike Bickle. My grandfather said that he and Mike Bickle are now on good terms and he actually supports Mike’s ministry. My grandfather went on to say that they are friends but the person he did have a problem with is Bob Jones.”

I’m sure you’ve been through a nightmare of attack in regard to your forthrightness and Berean spirit. And, I would not be surprised if you were so sick of dealing with this issue that you do not respond to this. But my conscience requires me to ask: Are you really on good terms with Mike Bickle now and in support of his ministry? Have you ever written an open letter recanting your original report? Your leadership and advice is vital to my own spiritual struggle with the entity known as IHOP and its leader Mike Bickle. Thank you for publishing your report and I hope to hear from you soon.

Grace and Peace,

Nathaniel Ruland

Pastor Gruen replied with:

1. I have no animosity to Mike, but could not support his ministry.

2. My grandson since putting that on the internet has totally left Ihop, and will have nothing to do with it.

3. I never sent a letter repudiated the original document–that is a total lie. The document was and is true.

4. See attachment.

That’s it ya’ll, until we get more.

Blog #4 Recant??? January 30th, 2008 – Posted by thegreycoats

As you all know the Grey coats have been in contact with pastor Ernie Gruen . He is the author of a quite lengthy quite infamous report . We have asked the pastor about the rumors of his alleged recantation of this report in the form of a city wide letter and or public apology of any kind. The Grey coats have also requested an interview with pastor Gruen to help clarify the issue because there seems to be some disagreement on the truth of these matters. Did Gruen recant? Did he apologize for his report? Where are these rumors coming from ? Here is a brief taste of what is to come in the near future as we go and get the truth straight from the proverbial horses mouth.

From Pastor Ernie Gruen:

It has been spread around Kansas City and on the Internet that I sent out a letter saying that I was deceived and that I had retracted the document “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Fellowship). They have been known by many names in the KC area, switching elders and church names on a regular basis. For a while they were known as Metro Vineyard. (Interesting John Wimber told me that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickle, because he discovered that I was correct in the “Aberrant” document.)

I sent out no such letter; I issued no retraction; I did not issue an apology!

Statements asserting the above are total malicious lies!

The “Aberrant” document was and is exactly the truth of what happened. It was accumulated from tapes purchased from Bickel’s own ministry. The report is genuine!

Who originated these lies? I have no idea.

Who decided to spread these lies on the Internet and throughout KC? I do not know.

But it is Mike’s responsibility to see that these lies are repudiated by him and also publicly at I-Hop. Since it purportedly is regularly stated to newcomers to I-Hop. Of course it is to Bickel’s advantage to keep THE LIE going to increase his numbers and growth of his ministry.

Pastor Ernie Gruen

erniegruen@yahoo.com

———————

As you can see Pastor Gruen is adamant in his statements that he did not recant or apologize. This begs the question, who has spread this rumor? Why have they lied about this man? And my personal favorite: Why does Mike Bickle’s wikepedia page keep getting re-edited every time we correct the error about Pastor Gruen’s report ? (interestingly enough it doesn’t even mention Pastor Gruen any more hmmmm…) The answers to these questions are out there somewhere . Maybe we will find a few as time goes by.

–Addendum: Pastor Gruen’s grandson Grant has reprinted this letter on his blog here:

http://apollos.wordpress.com/2008/02/02/ernie-gruen/

This reprint does support source authenticity. Namely, that we’re not just making all of this stuff up.

Side Note—

In the midst of all this, discussions in the comment sections were happening about trying to interview Mr. Gruen. We wrote up some questions, and sent them with a prayer, and a few weeks later the questions came back answered. Here is that post.

Blog #5 The Much Awaited Interview with Ernie Gruen, February 17th 2008

Thank you, Pastor Gruen for the opportunity to ask you some questions.
1. Did you ever hear the rumor that you recanted “aberrant practices “? If so what was your reaction?
I was more disappointed, than shocked. I was disappointed that Mike Bickle and/or his I-hop staff would willfully, deliberately spread lies and it continues to this day. I receive several e-mails a month asking if I recanted, etc. (See e-mail I received this week in question #7.)
2. What were you going through when you wrote your report?I really received tremendous support locally, and was not attacked by other ministers, so I was at peace.
3. We know that Kansas City Fellowship taught about a new breed i.e. the omega generation. Would you mind expounding on it a bit? Also do you think they have ceased teaching on this doctrine?

They will not quit teaching any doctrine that makes them “elitist”.

4. Did you truly exonerate Paul Cain from all your previous accusations, if so would you mind telling us what changed your mind?

Mike Bickle himself exposed and discredited him. http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel19.html

5. Did you really apologize to Mr. Bickle for the accusations you made in your report?

This fabrication that I apologized, spread by Mike Bickle and/or his I-hop staff, is a total lie. I never apologized to him–you do not apologize for exposing false prophets and telling the truth.

6. Do you think that John Wimber’s covering addressed the problems you spoke of in your report?

The elders of Full Faith Church agreed to stop sending out the “Aberrant Document” for two reasons: one, John Wimber said he would “clean up the mess at KCF” and provide oversight, and secondly to restore unity in the city. However, before Wimber died, he phoned me and said “I was right all the time in the ‘Aberrant Document’ and that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickle.” The proof that this phone call occurred is that at this point KCF quit calling themselves “Metro-Vineyard,” and removed themselves from his covering.

7. Do you think that the international house of prayer is spiritually dangerous, if so what concerns you the most?

Please read an excerpt from an e-mail I received this week, with the name withheld:

“Last year I attended an internship at the I.H.O.P. called “Fire in the Night” . . . We had a class called the “Prophetic History” class where in it we listened to audio tapes of Mike Bickle’s experiences in the super-natural realm and prophecies of Bob Jones, Paul Cain . . . After some meetings with the leadership there I decided to leave the program. I was led to the report you had written about the Kansas City Prophets and Mike Bickle exposing them for their lies. After reading this report I was even more disturbed because of its content. I took what I had read back to the leadership at I.H.O.P. and presented it to them asking them if this, “the report you wrote” was true?

They then told me that it was not true and that you had made a public apology to Mike and others for having written it. The leader I spoke to said he was there to witness these things taking place. I wasn’t sure if he was telling the truth so I wanted to ask you a couple of questions personally.”

I challenge Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staff to remove this so-called leader for telling a whopper of a lie!

1 Cor 3:11–For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ (NKJV)

Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs have built their entire foundation on two discredited false prophets.

8. If there was any advice you could give to someone who is considering worshipping at I.H.O.P. what would it be?

Thoroughly read and study these two documents and then pray and make your own decision:

a) The original “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship.

http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html

b) Paul Cain discredited by Mike Bickle:

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel19.html

9. Do you feel that the stand you took was worth it? Absolutely!

10. Why did you stop circulating the report? See answer in question #6.

Though Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs unethically look for any reason to slander me, the personal situation involving me occurred several years after the “Aberrant Document” was released. It had and has no relationship to the contents of the document or its release whatsoever.

——-

Well, everyone, as you can see this is a big deal. If people who advocate men like Bob Jones, and Mike Bickle, and the International House of Prayer take this into consideration, a lot of pain, and knee jerk reactions will probably flare up. The purpose of this site is not to hurt you. We are here to call out some of the things that WE OURSELVES SAW within the movement. We still have many dear brothers and sisters in Christ that are involved in the numerous places associated with those mentioned in the posts. The same Messiah that saved us has saved them also. We know that there are many Christians within these ministries, so we aren’t necessarily attacking entire congregations or anything of that sort. We are simply asking for a formal response to what has been waged towards Mr. Bickle and his ministry.

The big issue here is that somebody started a rumor (that has been proven to be a lie thus far) that Ernie Gruen recanted. There have been people coming onto this site in the blogs saying that they have seen Gruen’s letter of recantation. Also saying that they themselves saw Mr. Gruen recant publicly. So far, when asked, NOBODY has produced any evidence of these other than their own testimony. Logically if this was as big of a deal as it has been known to be, then there would still be copies of the letter floating around.

People who work with the International House of Prayer have claimed that Ernie recanted.

Ernie says that he didn’t.

All we want to know, and want you to know, is who is telling the truth.

Decide for yourself.

Feel free to comment on this post, and also you can find all of the posts here in our archives if you wish to talk specifics.

In Christ, our Salvation,

The Grey coats team, Jarrod, Nathaniel, and Devin.

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338 responses to “The Vindication of E. Gruen

  1. thegreycoats

    great work!

  2. It appears you done everything you could to convince folks this is real. I would now invite them to investigate for themselves if they think this isn’t the real thing. There are now two confirming reports, one from Ernie and the other from his grandson. You have done a great job in obtaining this information firsthand, in my opinion. No other site that I know of has been able to do that thus far.

    Let the doubters check it out further for themselves.

  3. thegreycoats

    yeah yeah!!Thanx mbaker. i agree.

  4. Amanda N.

    Thanks so much for making this available to all.

    I read this document because my mother gave it to me to read.

    I read the report and thought….I’ll have some grace in this area. Things happened then, but surely they have been cleaned up now. So I went to the IHOP website and looked up what they had to say about the controversey.

    Here is a direct quote from their website about prophecy.

    “WE DENY subjective prophetic experiences are equal to the inspired Word of God. In other words, all personal prophecy must uphold and honor the Scripture.

    Explanation: Simple prophecy is limited to edification, exhortation and comfort (1 Corinthians 14:3). It is to enrich our spiritual life, rather than give direction in the domestic areas of our life.”

    Here is the place to find it.

    http://ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000010501

    Yet they reference a prophecy that will dictate church matters in this document. Guess who one of the prophets was? Bob Jones.

    http://ihop.org/Publisher/File.aspx?id=1000006121

    They also still hold to their original prophecy. It too is found on their website. Scroll down below Mike Bickle’s profile. It’s called The Blueprint Prophecy.

    http://ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=22497

    So…..nothing has changed. Not even after their prophets were discredited. And Deuteronmy 18:20 is very clear. If a prophet has a false prophecy he is to be put to death. Therefore, he is not a prophet of God.

    I am saddened for our city. I will pray that things will change at IHOP. I won’t go, but I will pray.

  5. Thanks for the love Amanda, looks like you’ve been doing your homework. I give you an A+++

    Keep up the good work, the word needs to get out to those being hidden from this sort of info.

    in Him,
    Devin

  6. scott

    It also might be a good idea to add the fact that Ernie Gruen ran off with the secretary of his former church.

    A lot of stuff happened in the 80’s and 90’s. A lot of it was from the Lord, some of it was not. The prophetic was very immature, as were many prophetic people.

    Just people may not understand some of the things that have happened, does not mean anything.

    We need to pray for the spirit of wisdom and revelation before we judge things we do not understand. Gods thoughts are higher than our thoughts, and his ways are higher than our ways.

    The Lord is raising up many places in the U.S. IHOP is one of them.

    I’m not telling you what to believe, and I’m not going to debate. The only thing I want to add is do not think that even you can be deceived. We are all deceived in different areas. Even though I’m assuming you are not a Rick Joyner fan (lol) I’m going to use a quote from his book..

    “Know your present level of deception”

    The only way we can know truth, true truth…is if God opens our eyes/understanding and allows us to see. Trying to understand everything with your intellect will leave you with nothing but confusion and deception. (note: Im not saying using your intellect is a bad thing, God gave it to us to use…but do not rely completely on it)

    Whatever you think about IHOP-KC is your business, but please do not completey determine in your mind that IHOP (and the well known ppl affiliated with it) are false prophets and not of God….if you believe that…thats fine…but just leave room in your mind for the fact that you very well could be deceived about this yourself.

    I’m not saying you are, but please just consider that fact in your own mind.

    I could go on, but I’ll wait and see if you respond to this.

    God Bless you bro. You have a great gift for writing, and I can just sense that God is going to use you in an amazing way.

    Take care

    – Scott

  7. scott

    Obviously I had a ton of spelling mistakes in that, and missed some words. I trust you understand the point I was making.

  8. Scott,

    Thanks for dropping by and for the pleasantries. We are aware of Pastor Gruen’s alleged moral misconduct. However, an ad hominem argument does not discredit eyewitness testimony from an insider coupled with the backup of scores of churches. In other words that argument would be disregarded in a court of law.

    Moving on. If you are not going to debate then why did you spend the time on a moderately long post? Are you a drive-by, is your position above defense, or, are you really interested in hearing the other side–going beyond your prophetically preunderstood cliches of ‘present level of deception’ , ‘intellect vs revelation’, and of course the blanket statement–‘don’t judge what you don’t understand’.

    >”A lot of stuff happened in the 80’s and 90’s. A lot of it was from the Lord, some of it was not. The prophetic was very immature, as were many prophetic people.”

    This reads almost verbatim to a Mike Bickle quote from “Growing in the Prophetic”–yes I’ve read it. You might be surprised to find the level of past experience with IHOP to be pretty high on this site. Stick around. And, skim the page “Read This Before You Comment”.

  9. >(in the 80’s and 90’s) The prophetic was very immature, as were many prophetic people.”

    This could lead to a very interesting discussion. I was heavily involved in “the prophetic” in the 80’s and 90’s. For the most part the prophecy was forthtelling:

    Yay, the Lord says that I love you with an undying love, and I will never leave you or forsake you

    Fast forward to to the 2000’s where prophecy morphed into “foretelling”:

    I sense the Lord is going to begin to name some new candy bars. When these are named they will release a prophetic anointing every time the name of the candy is mentioned. These names will have power to call forth life and salvation.

    Now tell me, seriously, which is mature and which is immature?

    I would posit that mature prophesy would edify, exhort and comfort. I would posit that mature prophesy would line up with, and be testable by, the holy scriptures.

    A side note- as the “prophetic” matured, instructional material started suggesting that you no longer say “The Lord Says” but preface your “prophetic words” with “I sense” or something like that.

    A mother says to her son: “Don’t go to the abandoned warehouse. Do you hear me?”

    Son “yes, I hear you”

    the son goes to the warehouse, and mom discovers it.

    Mom ” Didn’t I tell you not to go to the warehouse?”

    Son ” I said ‘I heard you’, I didn’t say I wouldn’t go”

    This is the same sort of wiggle-room that prophets of today are taught. Children play this game. It is not a sign of maturity.

  10. thegreycoats

    Scott

    if you look at the bottom of the gruen interview he mentions hs immorality and says t took place years after the report. my frend what you are doing when you brng t up is using an emotional pull to win an argument. his immorality has no effect on the report it self. thats like saying rush limbaugh can no longer be a good political analyzer because he had a problem with pain pills. and no i am not a big joyner fan. he obviously does not know his own present level of deception. as based on the final quest which we would all do well to take off the shelves of every bookstore in the world. but i dont have time for that right now. hope you have a jolly day and thanks for stoppin by.

  11. cheryl

    Hey, you guys got off pretty easy with Scott. After Miriam Franklin copied the interview on her blog, Scott told her it was “a waste of an article”. And that’s all. No howdy doo or anything.

  12. thegreycoats

    it is not a waste but hey if thats how he feels. it doesn’t change the facts of the article that gruen wrote. folks are gonna have to realize that essentially all we have done is prove that the report is still upheld by its author. they gotta deal with the info in the report it self or not at all. yet if they refuse to even check the report we have very little to discuss with them. and slamming Gruen works both ways folks, fair is fair. if your gonna argue that gruen cant be trusted because of his lapse into sin. then you need to be ready to have the same logic thrown back at you. if gruen is dscredited because of immorality then so is Paul Cain and Bob jones. they also fell into pretty Gross immorality. so by scotts own logic they cannot be trusted either in which case i am o.k. since we are already asserting that they cant be trusted. you shall be snared by the words that you type

  13. I sure hope that the prophecies in the Bible weren’t “immature”.

    That’s just the thing for me. When “the prophetic” is “immature” ultimately relates christians as if they are some jedi’s growing in “the force”.

    NO prophecy is “immature” if it is, then God becomes immature. The prophecies spoken do not rely on the one speaking the prophecy. Rather, on God who speaks.

    Honestly, I caught what I’ve so often seen within the charismatic movement. Being told that I don’t understand. Then playing the “above reproach” card (wrongly) with the whole “I’m not going to debate” thing, implies that our friend Scott has full assurance that we are wrong. So much that he believes it useless to debate with us, or even discuss with us. This is especially sad because DOCTRINAL BELIEFS MUST BE TESTED BY SCRIPTURE (emphasis meant) and

    NOBODY HAS BIBLICALLY DEFENDED THE VIEWS OF IHOP OR MORNINGSTAR ON THIS SITE, whether it be on prophecy, the bridal paradigm, the “fasted lifestyle”, nothing.

    So, here we are again, with a supportor of these groups giving his 2 cents and sounding nice in that condescending sort of niceness that is loaded with implications…

    Now Scott, I’m sure I sounded pretty harsh, but we do totally want the full truth of the Gospel. We don’t want to miss anything that Jesus has to offer. If you can really defend your position from the Bible, we really do search out what is being said to us (though some people judge us otherwise). Also, as Natrimony said, it is a logical fallacy to use a man’s character against the content of a document that he produced. Truth remains truth no matter what the one bringing the truth has allegedly been through.

    For example, I will relate the part where you committed a logical fallacy (logic is a gift that God gave man to use to help discern what is wise, and what is foolish):

    Ernie Gruen drops facts about Mike Bickle’s fellowship of the time.

    “It also might be a good idea to add the fact that Ernie Gruen ran off with the secretary of his former church.”

    Adolf Hitler does a math problem with the following equation:

    20+9=29

    “It also might be a good idea to add the fact that Adolf Hitler killed millions of jews.”

    So, does the man’s truth claim change because of a moral act? No.

    Ernie Gruen never recanted, but some people still say that he did, and some people from IHOP even said that they saw him recant (allthewhile they were around 6 or 7 years old when it happened..?)

    OK, I’m definitely done for now.

    Scott, please come back and talk to us, also, bring your friends, your pastors, anybody, no other people from the 3rd wave movement will stick around and try to convince us on what they believe we’re missing out on.

    in Christ, true love,
    Devin Murphy

  14. An interesting case in point is Zack’s latest post here:

    http://zackhensley.wordpress.com/

    While I greatly applaud his commitment for refusing to respect someone’s beliefs to the point of letting them think they’re not going to go to hell without Jesus, I wonder why IHOP folks can’t see, that by the same token, we are trying to protect them from some of the false beliefs their leadership is promoting.

    I don’t get it.

  15. das1217

    Scott –
    To me it is pretty simple. But then I have a pea brain.

    Jesus said “let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” Ok, so Ernie gruen fell into sin. Is Mike Bickle without sin? I don’t think so. Are you or I without sin? I don’t think so. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. Remember that teaching from Sunday School?

    What is being brought out here is the false teaching, extra-biblical teaching, foundational basis’ based on false prophecy, and the “new” paradigm we MUST operate under or we will see the wrath of God. Come on, they are talking about truth here. They are talking about the Gospel of Jesus Christ, our Lord.

    Does anybody care that Jesus died for us, bled on the cross for us, and was resurrected so that we may have forgiveness and eternal life? The body of Christ today has become so enmeshed in “ME” (i.e. I am the bride (puffed up chest) so I am more special than you, or I can hear the Lord (prophecy) and you can’t, or in 40 days you too can be rich, etc) Does anybody care that we are walking in times that are perilous and there are souls who are still lost?

    Where is the sovereignty of God for pete’s sake?

    Greycoats – sorry I just had to vent.

  16. I happened across this page in my wanderings. I’m in no way affiliated with IHOP, other than I watch their daily devotional on GodTV some mornings. I’ve read some of their website.

    I have a question… and it’s a serious one.

    How do you know that this Pastor Gruen and his grandson are actually the right people? If I’m reading correctly, you’ve only had internet discussions, with no way of confirming identity.

    I ask mainly because a few years ago, it was done to me. Someone set up a website with my name on it and invited people to discuss things with them, purporting to be me, in an effort to damage my reputation.

    Just food for thought.

  17. Kathi,

    Most of us aren’t fooled so easy.

    If I was pastoring in a local community and someone set up a website purporting to be mine, selling books I had written. I think I would know about it and do something about it.

    Furthermore, it is very simple to search the internet registration records and find out who is behind the curtain, as it were.

    http://who.godaddy.com/WhoIsVerify.aspx?domain=erniegruen.com&prog_id=godaddy

    You did know about the WHOIS lookup, didn’t you?

    Now, if you lookup the erniegrien.com site you will see the site is maintained by Ronald Gruen of Gruen Computer Services, 213 Barto Dr., St. Louis, MO.

    Next if you do a search of the St. Louis Mo GIS website

    http://gis.stlouisco.com

    and enter 213 Barto Drive, you will find that the parcel is owned by Vicki Gruen (Ron’s wife). I can even give you her mailing address if you’d like. Or look it up yourself (Property Assessment Details)

    http://gis.stlouisco.com/search/ur.asp?var1=address&var2=Barto&var3=213&var4=Dr&var5=#10J531605

    I guess lastly, the person representing himself as Ernie Gruen (because he IS Ernie Gruen) has done nothing to damage his reputation. Everything he has said is consistant with the reports in various periodicals from the 1990/1991 timeframe that reported on the situation.

    Food for thought? Yeah I’ll think about it as I picnic in the “grassy knoll.” I am so tired of the conspiracy theory BS

    https://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/2008/02/17/the-much-awaited-interview-with-ernie-gruen/#comment-1357

    which keeps coming up on this topic. Let’s give it a rest, please.

  18. Hey Kathi,
    Thanks for dropping by.

    We have discussed this very issue in-depth in the comments at : The much awaited Ernie Gruen Interview.

    If you look at Ernie’s website, and his Grandson’s, you will see that we would have to go through A LOT to duplicate all of that.

    If that doesn’t help out, we’ll be happy to discuss more questions with you.

    in Christ, our Only.
    Devin Murphy

  19. Oh, also, after reading your blog on Once save always saved, I’m sure many of us would love to discuss that with you. Not with big long comments, just some short discussions.

    Also this isn’t the thread for it, perhaps the “ask away” thread would be good. Because one thing that I and the other moderators agree on, and will take to the grave, that once Christ has saved someone, nothing can snatch us from His hands.

  20. Well, I honestly hope when we stand before the Lord, that it’s you that’s right and not me, and that far more people make it to heaven than appears. (and what will you say to Him if you’re wrong?)

    Why not just get everyone to sign on the dotted line in Kindergarten then, so there’s no worries? Then everyone can live as they like.

    Heck, I could go back to witchcraft and worshiping deities other than Him…

    ———————-
    Oh! But you were on a witch hunt… hmmmm….

    Online ID theft is easy (and yes I know all about WHOIS… believe me.)

  21. thegreycoats

    kathie.
    we are not hunting witches we are hunting wabbits. and why do you think that you can lose your salvation? i am asking for dialog and not a fight. and yeah identity theft is easy but we have the real deal. look at some of the reasons we gave on the gruen interview post. his grandson has the same emails. he sent the one i posted on recant out in mass to alot of folks. we all got the same email. family friends and us. i mean gosh do we have to have 2 forms of i.d. all the time?

  22. Hey Kathi nice sarcasm. If I am not believing in a salvation by Christ’s graceful atoning work which purchases merciful forgiveness and also imputes righteousness to me then I probably won’t be saying much at the day of judgement. Hey, we don’t expect our information to break through every radical-charismatic’s presuppostitional view of reality. However, if just a few are brought to a place of honest questioning, then well, that’ll do.

  23. >Online ID theft is easy (and yes I know all about WHOIS… believe me.)

    Kathi,

    Since you seem to have already determined that we are on a “witch hunt” then I guess that makes your earlier comment “Just food for thought” sort of disingenious, doesn’t it.

    If you knew about WHOIS then you should have done your homework before trying to plant seeds of doubt. Better, yet, you should leave planting seeds of doubt to Satan, he is far more skilled at it then you seem to be.

    It’s stupid to carry this lame discussion on any further, but if this is some sort of elaborate farse, I might add that the person posing as Gruen’s grandson somehow managed to get himself registered at a state university with an email address that indicates his actual name. Working closely with the IT department at a major state university, I can assure you that type of fraud does not occur.

    I hope that did not come across as too rude, but it is hard for me to figure out your motivation for coming across as one who at one moment is “innocently” tossing out food for thought and next hurling the typical witch hunting accusations out.

    At the very least you should admit that the evidence against your conspiracy theory is compelling.

    Furthermore, if you are going to posit theories about the veracity of the report, please answer YES or NO:

    Have you read the Ernie Gruen report?

    If the answer is NO (or if you have no reply) then you are way over your head.

  24. Kathi, I responded in the “Ask Away” thread

  25. Chairos Seeker

    I was in the Vineyard at the time of the Ernie Gruen (EG) report. My understanding is that EG had recanted in the sense of having acknowledged that it was not his place to bring correction to KCF. Rather than release a public report, he should first have gone to those having authority or influence over the KCF.

    I think EG’s moral failure is relevant to the assessment of his claims. His motives and truthfulness reasonably become suspect in the light of his subsequent actions.

    Nevertheless, it was my understanding at the time of publication of the report that there was definitely smoke within KCF if not outright fire. Wimber’s involvement was specifically intended to bring order and accountability out of what had become, or at least had seemed to become, chaos.

    Subsequently Mike Bickle acknowledged that leadership and oversight at KCF had been less than ideal. He wrote a book that offered lessons learned about the local church administration of prophecy and prophetic ministers.

    My take is that some of this history has been forgotten. And some, having been passed from mouth to ear, has been unintentionally distorted. There was plenty of blame to go around. But what occurred doesn’t necessarily entirely discredit any of those involved. God is still able to bring correction to those who are His. So, I would urge caution in judging Bickle, IHOP. or Gruen based on this sad episode. Instead, we should study to learn what the episode reveals about the Church, ourselves, and our God.

  26. Chairos Seeker,

    All right. Welcome to the greycoats. Don’t be scared…but do be prepared.

    ‘I think EG’s moral failure is relevant to the assessment of his claims. His motives and truthfulness reasonably become suspect in the light of his subsequent actions.’

    No. You are presenting an ad hominem argument in this case which is most certainly a red herring. Gruen’s morality has no bearing on the truth value of his statement. A man’s moral fortitude may become suspect but an assertion may be true irregardless of moral fortitude. The evidence must be weighed. Hookers make true statements in court. A drug dealer is a credible witness if the evidence is in his favor. Bill Clinton had an affair with Monica Lewinsky. However, does that outside circumstance mean that when Bill Clinton adds two and two that we should question his truthfulness when his answer is four?

    Not only that, but you discredit your own position through using faulty logic. When flipped, the same statement would read, “I think [Bob Jones, Paul Cain]’s moral failure is relevant to the assessment of [their] claims. [Their] motives and truthfulness reasonably become suspect in the light of [their] subsequent actions.” However, in the case of Jones and Cain, the name of God is attached to false motives and lack of truthfulness. In addition Jones and Cain have no corroborating evidence (other than their own snake-oil salesmanship) to support their many ‘prophetic’ truth claims, whereas Gruen had the backing of many churches plus individual testimonies. He owned his allegations also, and has accepted their consequences, choosing not to hide behind the name of the Almighty as many do who claim to be ‘the Lord’s annointed.’

    You know what? I almost forgot. I have yet to hear or read any valid confession on Gruen’s part of moral misconduct. I really don’t know where your source for that information comes from. I’ve heard a lot of allegations made against him on the blogs but nothing substantial. Nothing like the public spectacle which Cain and Jones have become.

    One more thing. If you intend to use the greek noun for ‘appointed occasion’ in your name it should be a K not a Ch. Unless you have some sort of kitschy intention like me. (I use an “n” instead of an “m” in natrimony.)

  27. thegreycoats

    Natrimony

    Gruen does admit to his moral failure in our interview. we did not post the question simply because we printed it like we got it with the exceptions of correcting spelling. at the bottom you will see that he says the episode took place years after he wrote his document. which means that it is truly irrelevent . to all who read this. GRUEN WAS NOT FALLEN WHEN HE WROTE THE REPORT! it took place years afterward according to him. also i agree if we use charios seekers logic then it strengthens our case it most certainly does not hurt it.

  28. Jarrod,

    “A personal situation” is a pretty ambiguous phrase. I’m not quite sure I really know what that means.

    I don’t know why I waste my time with these drivebys sometimes.

  29. Chairos Seeker

    @Nat, you mistake my position and intention. I am no apologist for Bob Jones or Paul Cain. I am merely trying to correct certain aspects of the historical record and suggest how some apparently inconsistent accounts may be reconciled. I think that doing so is in everyone’s interest, irrespective of their opinion of Cain and Jones.

    I must misunderstand: You seem to be arguing that the moral character of a reporter is irrelevant to evaluation of the reporter’s truth claims. Certainly, I disagree with that position. Moreover, my doing so is not an instance of the ad hominem fallacy, which connotes tailoring an otherwise invalid argument to the peculiar sitution of the hearer(s).

    I’m frankly puzzled why you’d not think that the moral character of any reporter would be relevant to (though, of course, not solely determinative of) the weighing of his claims. To cite precedent, law courts make place for this (except in ways prohibited by the 5th amendment).

    Certainly, prostitutes and criminals sometimes tell the truth. But, I think we agree that those who practice one sort of moral corruption often thereby fall prey to others. You seem to be arguing that the corrupt are more trustworthy than the pure. I’m sure you don’t intend doing so. Perhaps you would be kind enough to clarify. I apologize for having somehow misunderstood, as I’m sure I have.

    With respect to Gruen’s claims, I’d say they addressed problems in church leadership more than problems with Cain or Jones. Certainly, the problems originated with Cain, Jones, and others. But, it was the responsibility of pastoral staff to maintain discipline. So, the ethics of Mike Bickle would seem to me to be more directly germane to the situation than those of Cain or Jones.

    So far as I know, Bickle has not been found to have morally fallen, though I suppose some might view his theology as sufficiently erroneous to constitute moral failure. Further information on these points would be of interest.

    @thegreycoats, nat

    Clearly, the time of discovery of a moral fall is less relevant than the time of the fall. Gruen’s fall could well have preceded publication of the report. I’d venture that subsequent events demonstrate that his moral state at the time of publication should be considered unknown.

    On a related point, I seem to have again been unclear. I don’t argue that all of Gruen’s claims were false. Quite the contrary, I’ve acknowledged that at least some–perhaps many–of them were valid. But, to accept all his claims as valid on their face would, in my view, be rather credulous.

    In offering this opinion, I don’t mean to exonerate Cain, Jones, or even Bickle. It’s just good analysis. If drinking water from the well has a high bacteria count today it quite possibly had one yesterday as well.

    @nat, I think the term “driveby” is loaded and unkind. I think it would even qualify as an ad hominem attack of the sort unworthy of someone who nobly aspires to apply logic to his faith, as you obviously do. I respectfully suggest that you reconsider your choice of words.

    Also, please note that the word Greek “chairos” is spelled using the letter chi not the letter kappa. So, “ch” is the proper transliteration to the Roman alphabet. That said, I don’t doubt that you’ve seen it transliterated with a “k,” which does better signify the correct pronunciation than does the “ch.”

  30. Rob

    Chairos,

    If you have read the Gruen report, you have see that the most troubling claims are taken from direct transcriptions of public statements from Bickle, Jones and Cain. The source of these transcriptions was documented. If any of these were fabricated, it would have been easy to discredit the report. To my knowledge, these transcriptions have never been challenged. Gruen’s character, or anyone’s character for that matter, is irrelevant to the accuracy of these transcriptions.

    Either they are accurate or not. The attacks on Gruen’s character look awfully suspicious to an outside observer and careful reader of the report. The simplest defense is to simply compare the transcriptions with the referenced source material and discredit Gruen. Why would this not have been done for the sake of truth? Why would Bickle not have set the record straight simply to promote peace in the body of Christ?

    I think I know why.

    -r

  31. TJSmith

    Chairos,

    I was in the Vineyard at the time of the Ernie Gruen (EG) report.

    You were at the Vineyard where this took place or in a Vineyard Church? If you were there were you on staff, leadership, or just a member of the church?

    “My understanding is that EG had recanted in the sense of having acknowledged that it was not his place to bring correction to KCF. Rather than release a public report, he should first have gone to those having authority or influence over the KCF.

    You understand because you were there or are you sharing something that you got second hand from someone else? Secondly, I was under the impression from the report that EG did go to them first before he wrote the report. Are you saying from first hand knowledge that this is not the case?

  32. TJSmith

    Responding to post #30…

    I disagree also with the logic of the persons moral characture in this particular incident or issue having anything to do with the truth of the report.

    If the report was written with transcripts from tapes, notes testamonies of the actual issues then it seems to me that the document except for the points that he did apologize for are indeed factual. And if the issue of what ever the “personal matter” was happened in a time well after the fact of the document, then it has no bearing on the document.

    I guess if we follow the logic of what you are stating then King David, after his sin with Bathseba, even after he repented, would make what he wrote (Psalms) not anymore truthful because of his moral characture. Even though he was a man after Gods own heart. We might as well take the book out of the bible.

    Of course with that stated, then we should accept the repentece of Paul Cain, but because I/we do doesn’t mean I have to trust him. The fruit will tell if he is still teaching and preaching false doctine in the days ahead.

  33. “CH”airos,

    Don’t get all huffy now. So you’re not a driveby eh? Where did you get your definition for ‘ad hominem fallacy’–wikipedia? Ad hominem means ‘against the person’ recheck the location of your term. Yes, within the realm of informal logic (evidence theory) character witnesses are admittable sources of testimony. The practice has such weak results though that only defense attornies grasping at straws utilize ‘character witness’ strategies. But, maybe you are acquainted with the legal system in a way that I am not and can provide proof otherwise (I don’t own many historical journals of U.S. juridical precedent).

    >But, I think we agree that those who practice one sort of moral corruption often thereby fall prey to others. You seem to be arguing that the corrupt are more trustworthy than the pure. I’m sure you don’t intend doing so.>

    I don’t agree. A tax evader is not more likely to kill his wife than the Acting Commissioner of the IRS. And, I don’t appreciate the attempt at framing my argument. The actual events of Gruen’s allegations must be addressed. What about the church endorsement which accompanied Gruen’s testimony? What did he have to gain, he pastored a very large and successful church during that period–how was Bickle a personal threat to the extent that Gruen would care to lay his own rep. on the line to assassinate Bickle’s character. But, if attention can be diverted from these questions then dealing with the content of Gruen’s allegations can be more easily circumvented.

    So, we could continue arguing about arguing but I really don’t want to spend my Sunday afternoon in that pursuit. Bickle’s pastoral ethic and discernment is certainly under indictment by his endorsment of such characters as Jones and Cain. Not to mention the organization which he founded–IHOP–on the foundation of the flash in the pan hucksterism seen in the KCP phenomena of the early ’90’s. Bickle struggles to maintain legitimacy within evangelicalism without paying proper attention to the faulty Neo-Montanist roots of his own construct. Sadly, he has convinced a generation (most of whom were between 0 and 10 during the KCP debacle) inculcated by relativism that his new teachings are valid due to the influence of such ‘prophetically gifted’ individuals as Cain and Jones. If Cain and Jones (among others) are truly the foundation of Bickle’s influence then there is much to be said indeed. I personally don’t think that anyone need ‘dig up’ any dirt on Bickle other than what is plainly in sight, but which has been artfully redecorated and explained away with over-spiritualized doublespeak and Post-Modern platitudes. I say, give the unsanitized version of the prophetic history, warts and all, and let the young IHOP inductees decide from there.

    Don’t argue Greek with me man. I was trying to poke fun at myself and be nice by bringing that up. But, do you honestly think I would have said anything if I weren’t sure of my grammar? Check Matthew 8.29, Mark 1.14, Rom. 5.6, etc. in the Nestle-Aland or the USB and see that kairos is spelled with a kappa—καιρός . You can find a pretty comprehensive working definition here:

    http://english.ttu.edu/kairos/layers/metaphor.html

    Please. The fact that you can’t tell a kappa from a chi is more than enough evidence that you enjoy talking about things that you don’t really comprehend. And, I mean that in the kindest way possible.

  34. TJ,

    Accepting repentance and restoration to preaching positions which effect other honest believer’s lives are two different things. Temporal activity yields temporal consequence. In Jones’ case he used his ‘gift’ to persuade women to provide him with private pleasure. Cain used prophetic visions to validate his celibacy thereby masking his affinity for same-sex attraction. How could a church or church leaders ever place them in positions of influence within the body of Christ again? It is simply ludicrous.

  35. TJSmith

    #35

    I agree with you but in my attempt to answer my own arguement/debate/statement in this I could see where someone might take what I said and say something to the effect that if David was forgiven should we then not forgive also.
    Personal experience of a church leader that I knew who was convicted of rape/molestation who came to the church after he had served his time and asked forgiveness, recieved it from us because we interpreted the scriptures that we must, BUT, we also stated after the meeting with the person, actually to his face, that we can forgive him but we didn’t have to trust him and he would no longer be allowed to minister in the church in the capacity he had done in the past. he was also given guidelines if he was to stay. If over time he followed these guidelines and proved his trustworthiness to us, he would be allowed back in ministry.
    He chose not to stay because we did not embrace him fully and just let him back in a place that would be of danger for himself as well as others. My point being, I can because I believe the bible tells us to forgive, forgive these men but at the same time it will be a long, long time before I would ever trust them in a position as a “PROPHET” in the church, if there were even such a thing today.
    Since these men still teach the heresy as stated in 1948 by the AG church, the neo-montanist error and it is obvious that they will until their last breath (unless the Lord performs a miracle) then I stand on the foundation that the fruit has not changed therfore they are in error and teaching false biblical/extra-biblical interpretations.
    I was addressing the whole lne of thought about what ever the “personal issue” was with EG. I did not agree with post 30 and agreed totally with post 31

  36. Chairos Seeker,

    I think to end this all, I’ll just write a report called “The Ernie Gruen Report – 20 years later.” If I can keep my self squeeky-clean maybe it won’t be discounted. Wait a minute- even if I fall, it would still be true…. What ever shall we do?

    Oh I get it- how ’bout we judge things against the WORD OF GOD? Yeah, that’s the ticket – we could call it a “plumbline.”

    Much better.

  37. Chairos Seeker

    Folks, you’re making wrong inferences about my opinion. I’m sure I’ve contributed to that by taking some positions that you reject. But, I’ve done so only because I’m concerned to be intellectually honest and fair. Quibbles about evidence and argumentation aside, I come to the same conclusion as most of you here: the EG report was substantially accurate. Even Bickle’s own book Growing in the Prophetic would substantiate significant errors, excesses, and problems of accountability. If you haven’t read it, I’d suggest that you do so.

    I was only trying to explain that claims that EG had recanted have some basis in fact. While he doesn’t seem ever to have denied the truthfulness of his accusations, many or most of which I emphasize that I agree were true, he did stand down when Wimber became involved. As I see it, and as was explained to me at the time, he acknowledged that he did not having standing to discipline Bickle. In that very limited sense, he recanted having publicly made the charges, while continuing to insist that his charges were accurate.

    I think this nuance has led to misunderstanding of the disposition of his charges. Both those who say the charges were never withdrawn and those who say they were withdrawn each have a piece of the truth.

    If you incorrectly understand my statement as an attempt to vindicate Cain or Jones, I’m unsure how I can respond. It doesn’t vindicate or even defend them. But, I think it shows how some folks, particularly those who’ve come along after the fact, can innocently and even rightly claim that EG’s charges were withdrawn.

    Even though I agree that EG’s claims were substantially correct, I think it’s important to emphasize that the best reason they can be accepted is because they can generally be externally corroborated, not because of EG’s trustworthiness. Arguments that he fell after he made the charges or that he was an adulterer but not a liar don’t have much power to convince.

    Nat, I apologize for my error in Greek transliteration and for incorrectly construing your tone, as is so easily done in blogspace. As you point out, I’ve apparently been waylaid by a common transliteration error. I see “chairos” much more often than “kairos.” I can’t think why that is. Maybe it’s by attraction to “chronos” (time).

    Knowing the similar word chairos (joy), I didn’t bother looking at my Greek text when I created the handle. But, you shouldn’t infer from a spelling error that I don’t know the alphabet. Fact is, it seems that I’m comfortable enough with Greek to sometimes fail to check the text when I should. In any case, thanks for pointing out the error. Maybe I will follow your lead and consider “chairos” a happy conflation of “chairo” and “kairos.” I do rather like that.

    If any of my remarks seem to have been unkind, I apologize. Frankly, some of the remarks aimed at me hurt. And, while I tried to put aside that hurt, I may not have entirely succeeded. One’s feelings tend to leak out regardless how one’s conscious mind disposes otherwise. Nevertheless, any falling short of God’s fully unconditional love is sin.

    Folks, I agree with much of what you say. In fact, we’re on the same side of most of the questions related to these issues. We disagree here and there with methods and the way we evaluate certain evidence.

    But, the tone of so many remarks here is not Christlike. If you’ll forgive me for saying so, you seem to be congratulating one another on correctly seeing the truth rather than helping others to see what you’ve seen. You’d be much more effective in ministry to the undiscerning if you’d take a gentler tone with those who enter the discussion, especially those who generally agree with you.

    There’s no need to hide your observations or arguments. Just consider treating folks with a little more respect, even if though don’t seem to be using their minds or otherwise deserve it. Gratuitous words and phrases such as “Wikipedia” and “driveby” are not edifying. At least, I wasn’t edified by them.

    I know I have logs in my own eyes, even if I can’t see them. And, if you’d like to point out some of them, I’d be grateful. I’m not trying to tear you folks down. I’m trying to build you up.

    At this point, you can count me in the “driveby” column.

    Peace,

  38. Chairos seeker,

    Hey, the debate was just getting good. I thought you weren’t a driveby?

    >Even though I agree that EG’s claims were substantially correct, I think it’s important to emphasize that the best reason they can be accepted is because they can generally be externally corroborated, not because of EG’s trustworthiness.<

    That not what you said to begin with which was:

    >I think EG’s moral failure is relevant to the assessment of his claims. His motives and truthfulness reasonably become suspect in the light of his subsequent actions.

    “You’d be much more effective in ministry to the undiscerning if you’d take a gentler tone with those who enter the discussion”

    When addressing the ‘undiscerning’ (people with honest questions, doubts, unsophisticated positions, etc.) we are markedly patient. However, you take a position making a somewhat convincing rhetorical argument and obviously display a wider scope of knowledge on the topic than some. So, sorry your feelings are hurt but if you are going to bring an argument be prepared to defend it. Sarcasm is a rhetorical tool. Oh and thanks for the ‘unChristlike’ label. I’m not surprised you would resort to that. I can empathize with how much it stings when an argument is disproven and I drop a peg in my own mind. Kind of makes me want to start calling names too sometimes

    You know,I don’t really have any ‘logs’ to point out. But,if you think of more ways to ‘build us up’ maybe you could just dispense with the pleasantries and speak plainly.

  39. TJSmith

    I am still curious to know if you were there Charios? At the very church this happened at?

  40. Chairos Seeker

    TJ, I apologize for seeming to have ignored your query. It got lost amidst some of the issues related to process and tone.

    Yes, I was at the Anaheim Vineyard during and after Bob Jones’ dismissal. I was not an employee of the church and don’t claim privileged knowledge. For the most part, I know only what the church leadership announced.

    John Wimber did not even speak from the pulpit the sin which Bob Jones had committed and warranted his immediate dismissal. He felt that it would be debasing even to mention it. So, I learned certain details second hand and later corroborated them with, for example, Rick Joyner’s frank account.

    After 15+ years, my recollection of some details may be less than perfect. But, I’ll respond as best I can to any follow-up question you pose so long as I can answer it more or less objectively.

    BTW, I think you and others here would find interesting discrepancies between Rick Joyner’s account and the account given by Bob Jones at Morningstar’s 2007 Spiritual Warfare and Deliverance Conference, which is freely available on the Manna Reserve web site. If you can tell me how to discreetly exchange e-mail addresses, I will e-mail you the 10-minute excerpt in question, which runs only about 975k.

    One reason I stopped by was to learn whether others here have noted these discrepancies, which I think may explain how some innocently but wrongly approve Bob Jone’s past moral character. Unfortunately, I got sidetracked by a debate.

  41. Chairos Seeker

    What say, TJ: did you hear what I heard? I’m hoping to avoid having to listen to the clip a second time, as I found it distressing to listen the first time. . . .

  42. tjsmith

    CS,

    I apologize I haven’t listened to it yet. I have been very busy at work and also preparing for this weekend service at church (helping lead worship).

    Be patient please, I actually will have time to listen Saturday morning and then I will respond.

    LOL- PTL- WWJD – DWJD – JF

    TJ

  43. tjsmith

    CS,

    I listened last night to the MP3 of the Bob Jones interview, made a copy of the MP3 and listened again this morning in the car.

    1st let me say that I am not one who believes in blaming Satan for our own choices. Bob Jones surely attempted to absolved himself other than to say anger took root and he became bitter. Again his choice. I really felt like this was an attempt to put a supernatural spin on an ungly situation that HE did.

    Mat 15:16 And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 “Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?[fn4] 18 “But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 “For out of the heart come [all] evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 “These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”

    So when Bob ones says that he still feels at that time that he did nothing wrong, if he was walking down the street undressing women and being lustful, that was his choice to take that road, the temptation that maybe satan put in his mind and when his (Bob Jones) sinful nature and desires to hold of it, he sinned. He stated later that he wasn’t going to enter into adultry. He already did so just by thinking it as he walked down the street.

    The other thing is, he (Bob Jones) didn’t deliver anyone. He gave absolutely no credit to the One who “gave him authority” over these demons he cast out.

    I also think it was a very telling thing that John Wimber gave Bob Jones plane tickets and then seperated himself from the man. In the post from EG he states that John Wimber called him (EG) and told him he (EG) was right and he shouldn’t have gotten involved with Mike Bickle.

    Now that I have pointed those two things out, I need to read your post above and then see if I heard what you heard from the interview. More to come.

    TJ

  44. Chairos Seeker

    TJ, I concur in your observations. I also found no mention in Jones’ account of the event/events that took place at the Anaheim Vineyard, which were the cause of his being shipped out. Jones’ seems to me to be claiming that his lust never gave way to action, which is patently false.

    As a reminder, the full interview is available on the Manna Reserve web site. In marking out the clip, I did my best to ensure that all relevant information was included.

    P.S. I don’t have reason to doubt that Jones’ symptoms may have begun after exposure to one or more particularly powerful demons. However, the extent to which that might absolve him is unclear to me. Certainly, a Christian can’t get a free pass by claiming “a demon made me do it” and “I was exposed to the demon only because you made me pray for really oppressed people.”

  45. Chairos Seeker

    Potential correction: Jones’ does mention being the subject of false accusations. He may intend to allege that he never abused the woman and her daughter whose charges were accepted by John Wimber.

  46. tjsmith

    CS

    I thought of that after I wrote, in that he (Bob Jones) said that the Lord, Holy Spirit, angel (not sure who was talking to him as he mentions all three) said that there would be accusations made about him that would be false accusations. So with that statement, then the women and her daughter are made out to be liers.

    Not that false accusations haven’t been made before in other situations as these even in the world but seems convenient to be able to make these statements as a “prophet” and “anointed one” and therefore using the “saith the Lord” to 1) aquit oneself and 2) self reconciliation to the church.

    TJ

  47. tjsmith

    Jones’ seems to me to be claiming that his lust never gave way to action, which is patently false.

    He thought it and according to our Lord that is the same as doing it even if he thinks he didn’t. He did admit to physically kissing her. WHAT JUNK!

  48. Chairos Seeker

    TJ, I agree that lust is, in the eyes of the Lord, as serious a sin as adultery. But, we don’t generally discipline church members who fall short of acting out their sinful thoughts. So, if true, Jones’ claims would be relevant to the handling of his restoration. However, I find no evidence that a process of restoration was conducted under the authority of any local church. And, I’m extremely skeptical of his claims that he didn’t act out apart from a kiss.

    To be fair to Jones, a report by Rick Joyner (given time, I can find the URL) was frank in admitting the Jones had seriously sinned in action and had wrong the woman and her daughter. So, at one point, Jones was forthright in admitting his wrongs.

    The relevance I attach to the interview is that folks who hear it but don’t know the full history can be led to form an impression of Jones’ fall that isn’t complete or accurate. I recently heard a TV host praise Jones as one who had “never wavered.” Such erroneous statements may derive from the incomplete picture given in this interview, at which Rick Joyner and possibly Jack Deere were present. I’d really like to know how they’d put this together.

  49. tjsmith

    Argg!!! I just typed an answer to you CS and hit the wrong key and it all went bye bye.. Here we again…

    CS

    “..The relevance I attach to the interview is that folks who hear it but don’t know the full history can be led to form an impression of Jones’ fall that isn’t complete or accurate. I recently heard a TV host praise Jones as one who had “never wavered.” Such erroneous statements may derive from the incomplete picture given in this interview, at which Rick Joyner and possibly Jack Deere were present. I’d really like to know how they’d put this together.

    Got ya!

    I suppose most of that camp (prophetic, dominion, MSOG, etc) probably use the standard thought that there are many in the Bible that were men of God and even though they may have fallen in sin they were still used of God so the same with Bob Jones.

    And why tell the whole truth and admit to anything. When you supernatural-ize the whole thing and you have a whole group of people who either don’t know the scriptures, or how to test the spirit, and are just looking towards these men as “anointed”, they can get away with anything or say just about anuthing and it is believed.

    David and Bathsheba, Solomon and the mixed marriages and following after their false gods, and others. Yes God used them but the consequences seemed to fall either on the next generation or they were slain.

    If I put myself in this picture as a one time follower of the teachings that come from these men and the fact that I became mentally numb to the truth. I would say that I put it together by believing these high profile people who make up tehse statements were indeed “men of God” who wouldn’t or couldn’t be decieved and decieving and I would accept whatthey said as truth. I would have never ever thought of researching or questioning what they said. Man, it’s alot different for me now.


  50. Jones admitted to “Sexual misconduct (not adultery)”

    [Jones] also confessed to using his ministry position to manipulate the women and in divisive and slanderous activities in the church.

    (Metro Vineyard) Leaders also detailed plans for counseling and caring for the two women involved.

    Christianity Today March 9, 1992

    Bob Jones is one of the Kansas City Prophets. Seen by some as the most controversial of the Kansas City Prophets. Was removed from the Vineyard Anaheim because of sexual improprieties, which consisted of encouraging women to undress in his office so they could stand “naked before the Lord” in order to receive a “word.” Still active today, with the abundant support of Rick Joyner. Jones is a major proponent of Latter Rain and Manifest Sons theology.

    http://www.cephas-library.com/evangelists/bob_jones_shepherd_rod.html

  51. Chairos Seeker

    Bill, I think the CT account is essentially accurate. I note that it makes no mention of counseling/discipline for Jones, whom I understand from his interview to have moved to Florida after his dismissal. I do think it’s important to note that Rick Joyner’s account concurs in Jones having abused (my word) the women. That is my main point in encouraging comparison between the Joyner’s account and the interview, which seems to gloss over or omit the incident at Anaheim.

    I suppose that some could argue that the written record is so clear and explicit that Jones need not give a full account every time he explains what transpired. But, I do not agree. I would hope that if–God forbid–I should ever be in such a place, that the main points of my message would be my personal unworthiness and the grace/mercy of God. I would also hope that I would offer no excuses or reasons for my failure. Owning those points would, I think, be minimal conditions precedent to restoration, let alone restoration to ministry.

    FWIW, I’ve heard (on MP3) Paul Cain recently preach just such a message. Not that such a message disposes of all related issues. I am troubled by details of Cain’s (alleged) restoration. However, at least in his case there was a process, even if the process was rather secretive and possibly less than credible. And, at least, he forthrightly admits his sin. However, I am mindful of the joint statement by Bickle, Deere, and Joyner that unprecedented levels of deception and manipulation hindered their attempts to minister to Cain after discovery of his sin.

    I am simply amazed that anyone without personal knowledge of the skills and character of Cain’s restoration team would accord the team or its claim of completed restoration any confidence or credibility. I’d really like the opportunity to dialog with such an individual. Takers?

  52. Chairos Seeker

    Oops, I see that address tags are not permitted. Here’s the URL for Joyner’s report:

    http://www.harvestnet.org/lookback/GUP.htm

  53. CS,

    That was just an excerpt of the the article, and even the excerpt mentioned counseling. The article was a sidebar to a bigger article on Wimber. My copy is on a server elsewhere and I can’t download it from home on dial-up.

    I think that further detail on the misconduct, and a continued rehashing of those details could and would be harmful to the women involved. Of course, I also think that Jones does the church a dis-service by not retiring and perhaps getting a job as a greeter at Wal-Mart (which would be the perfect job for him, BTW).

    I find this troubling:

    “He had prayed for a spirit of lust to be broken off of a well-known evangelist, but he had done this without permission from the Lord. In Bob’s words, when he did this it “jumped on” him, and he could not shake it.”

    Because I don’t understand why anyone would need the Lord’s permission to pray good things for another. And where is God in all of this? Does he reward such things by allowing His prophet to be overcome by this demon?

    Quite frankly this is the Flip Wilson argument (“The devil made me do it”).

    And why did it take the prayers of Mahesh Chavda to break it? Is God a respector of persons? I’ve had Mahesh pray for me, and well, he’s just Mahesh.

    On the topic of restoration, I can list example after example of men who boasted that they were accountable. Yet when they fell, after a period of denial, they finally chose to undergo restoration. Every time they CHANGED who they were accountable to and selected another group of leaders. Perhaps that is human nature, but is makes ANY claims of accountability suspect.

  54. Chairos Seeker

    Bill,

    “That was just an excerpt of the the article, and even the excerpt mentioned counseling.”

    I saw reference to counseling of the victims but didn’t see reference to counseling for Jones. Do I correctly understand that the original source mentions plans for Jones’ restoration? If so, is there any information on whether those were carried out? In that event, I’d wish to retract my good-faith claims of skepticism regarding process.

    “I think that further detail on the misconduct, and a continued rehashing of those details could and would be harmful to the women involved.”

    If I understand correctly, you’re suggesting that Jones may have been exercising appropriate discretion in omitting details of the Anaheim incident? I do see your point. But, it seems to me that Jones would have referred to the incident in a general way or otherwise have avoided giving the impression that his sins were only/mainly in thought rather than action. I do recognize that it’s easier to dissect a talk than give one. But, I myself would have been speaking with notes that ensured that I covered the key points.

    “Because I don’t understand why anyone would need the Lord’s permission to pray good things for another.”
    There’s a notion that one shouldn’t engage a demon without the Lord’s explicit permission. It’s considered one thing to pray and another to minister deliverance. This does make sense to me. I’ve received this very advice from folks experienced in deliverance ministry.

    “And why did it take the prayers of Mahesh Chavda to break it? Is God a respector of persons?”
    There’s a notion that it’s unsafe to pray deliverance solo. So, the emphasis shouldn’t be on Mahesh personally but on having a brother/sister present. This does make sense to me.

    “Every time they CHANGED who they were accountable to and selected another group of leaders. Perhaps that is human nature, but is makes ANY claims of accountability suspect.”
    Yup. Theology of the local church seems to me to be one of the key points in such matters.

  55. thegreycoats

    it seems to me that to blame a demon or poor wimber for the lust of your own flesh is a lot like Adam in the garden. No God it wasnt my fault it was the woman ,no it wasnt my fault it was the serpeant. that is not repentence that is passing the buck. hmm. no personal responsability. does it bother anyone that Jones took no personal responsibility but essentially blamed it on Wimber for praying out of turn? how can one be restored with a confession like that? is there such a lack of wisdom in the church? hmm these are questions they are not meant to be read as rhetorical.what happened was wrong and i have read the news reports and wimbers own account of discipline on the matter. what i havent seen is an actual confession with contrition. but who am i right ?

  56. >There’s a notion that one shouldn’t engage a demon without the Lord’s explicit permission

    Well, since these guys only claim a 66% sucess rate in hearing from the Lord, that means even if they THINK they have the Lord’s permission, they are in deep do-do 34% of the time.

    I mean, what, do they get a signed slip or something?

    Seems like the bible says “Greater is he that is in me, then he that is in the world.” That said, I don’t think any mature Christian would have anything to fear with a demonic encounter, period.

    No the empahsis was on Mahesh. I take it from the artcile that Rick Joyner was praying. If he felt he needed to have a brother with him praying, it could have been the closest usher, for pete’s sake.

    Quoting Joyner: I did not want to make the same mistake that he had by trying to take authority over something that powerful alone, so I found Mahesh Chavda, and we prayed together for it to be broken off of him.

    Seems to me like he LOOKED for the big gun. Which goes against my theology- the power is in JESUS, no the person praying.

    Funny Mahesh story- he was praying for a friend of mine, and really pushing on him. My friend did not go down, Mahesh pushed more. Finally my friend raised his eyebrows and shrugged, and Mahesh walked on. You had to be there.

    -Bill

  57. Chairos Seeker

    “what i havent seen is an actual confession with contrition.”
    The account by Joyner seems to me to indicate contrition. One could argue that it’s second hand. But, I’m not sure Jones has the language skills to write a properly contrite report.

    In any case, I don’t think that our inability to spot contrition is all that relevant. What matters is the opinion of those responsible for Jones’ discipline and restoration and our assessment of their credibility. But, I’m unsure who they are and what they did. So, I end up in the same place you’re at, albeit by a somewhat different route.

    Please bear in mind that my intention in pointing out this interview wasn’t to criticize Jones or those to whom he was/is responsible, whoever they are. I was trying to demonstrate that someone hearing only that interview could come away with a relatively favorable impression of Jones that downplays the extent and significance of his fall. That may explain why he’s welcome in so many places today.

  58. Chairos Seeker

    “I don’t think any mature Christian would have anything to fear with a demonic encounter, period.”

    From the standpoint of systematic theology, I agree that your argument is sound. But, folks I’ve interacted with who are experienced in deliverance ministry tend to take a more cautious approach. My guess is that they’ve learned the hard way that pride and presumption sometimes sneak up on the best of us–maybe particularly on the best of us. So, they tend to recommend first trying to get a sense of what God may be doing before taking on a deliverance case.

    With respect to accuracy in hearing God, I’d suggest you’re working with soft numbers that don’t provide a basis for the sort of extrapolation you offer. I think the KCF folks were estimating accuracy of personal and large-scale prophetic words rather than accuracy of discerning God’s will in a ministry situation. Moreover, I’m personally not very confident that their estimates were well founded. And, even if they were accurate in one time and place I doubt that they generalize well.

    I think one could reasonably presume that God wants to free a brother/sister from a demon. But, it seems prudent to ask Him. If He says “NO” in upper-case letters it might be worth reconsidering the situation. (I don’t mean to suggest that a Christian can be possessed by a demon. That’s a whole rabbit trail in its own right. I do believe that a Christian can be harassed and even influenced by demonic activity. However, he/she remains accountable for his/her acts irrespective of external influence.)

    “Seems to me like he LOOKED for the big gun. Which goes against my theology- the power is in JESUS, no the person praying.”

    I agree that he sought the most skilled and experienced partner available. My original comment goes not to the choice of partner but the advisability of having a partner.

    I suspect there’s no theological difference here concerning the source of power. It’s just that, even in an area of giftedness or power, one tends to operate more effectively after opportunity to learn from experience. Even if you believe in a gift of preaching (prophecy) you’re likely to prefer listening to a seasoned preacher rather than a seminarian.

    This isn’t an absolute principle, of course. An analogous claim would be that, with time to advance in maturity, one can become more effective in prayer. God being sovereign and gracious, He can and does often answer even badly put and wrongly intended prayers of spiritually immature folks. But, the spiritually mature are more likely to pray effectively; that is, according to God’s will.

  59. Well, I did get the article downloaded and will reproduce it below. I would be curious to see if I can find the 6 page report mentioned, but of course, it was published before the internet really took off, so its back to the library.

    -Bill


    Christianity Today March 9, 1992
    Kansas City ‘Prophet’ Disciplined

    Vineyard leaders took strong steps recently to discipline well known “prophet” Bob Jones (CT, Jan. 14, 1991, p. 18), after Jones admitted to “Sexual misconduct (not adulter)” with two women. Jone (no relation to the founding family of Bob Jones University in South Carolina) also confessed to using his ministry position to manipulate the women and in divisive and slanderous activities in the church.

    A detailed, six-page time line of Jones’s fall and subsequent disciplining process was sent to church leaders and Christian Media worldwide in early December 1991. “We, the national Vineyard leadership, believe that the rebuke of a leader discovered sinning should be published at a level commensurate with his visibility and ministry,” explained John Wimber in an accompanying letter.

    As part of the disciplinary process, Jones is not allowed to come to church meetings for at least six months, to do any form of ministry, or to have any contact with any member of the church not formally appointed to meet and visit with him and his wife. Ten families in the church were appointed to visit the Joneses regularly and help facilitate thier restoration. Vineyard leadership also is suporting the Joneses through regular counseling, visits by the Kansas City Metro Vineyard leadership, and monetary contributions.

    Metro pastor David Ravenhill told Christianity Today that the restoration process may take two years or more. He sail Jones probably will no longer affiliate with the Metro Vineyard. Leaders also detailed plans for counseling and caring for the two women.

  60. Chairos Seeker

    Bill, good catch! I have access to the CT library but it seemed to begin about one year to late to access the article. Text in the article was helpful to me in construction of a Google search that turned up more information, available at:

    http://wayofthelordchurch.org/20.html

    The thumbnails at the right are links to two PDF documents. One is a local newspaper article concerning Jones’ fall. The other is a letter giving some details concerning Jones’ restoration process.

    Based on the letter, I have to withdraw certain of my statements regarding Jones’ restoration. I am troubled that he has been restored to such a prominent ministry. But, it appears that the planned process was appropriately followed.

    I’ll now use quotes from these sources to try to locate the AVC letter/press release.

  61. tjsmith

    CS

    Please bear in mind that my intention in pointing out this interview wasn’t to criticize Jones or those to whom he was/is responsible, whoever they are. I was trying to demonstrate that someone hearing only that interview could come away with a relatively favorable impression of Jones that downplays the extent and significance of his fall. That may explain why he’s welcome in so many places today.

    When, again, was this interview? If it was a couple of years after the fact, then could it be that he has had time to “fleshly” come up with a “The Lord is doing…” word in order to explain away the incident and if there has been enough time that had gone by between the incident and those he was speaking to, not to many people would know about it.

    Same type of thing within the A/G church in where I was reading about the stance of the church towards the “Latter Rain Theology” and how it was considered a heresy. Now it is being more readily accepted because the old stalwarts (sp) of the church who had made that proclamation have died and now this newer generation of leaders are more accepting and the statements in the General Assembly have been revised or removed and we see the Latter Rain teachers at some of the pulpits of the A/G church these days.

  62. thegreycoats

    cs

    its ok to criticize. we all need it some times. while i understand the reluctance to it i also see the need for it. tozer said we should listen to the criticisms of our enemies as well as our friends but more so our enemies for they may be more useful since they are not moved by sympathy for us. if the criticism is wrong move on. if its true you do something about it. and at the end of the day it is not for us to decide if someone repents enough or not. thats Gods business . however i have been studying king saul and he confessed to his sin after his excuses for all the wrong reasons. he didnt want to lose honor from men. i dont know if this is the case with jones or not but that interview is telling. as far as praying for demon removal goes. if God is for us who can be against us. we dont need permission to cast them from us or our brethren as if they had any authority over us in Christ. you know who makes up those ideas? they do.the apostles never asked for permission and none of the men of God i have known who truly and i stress the word truly walk in this area ask for permission either. they throw the interlopers out. and ya know what? its usually in a quiet un assuming way. i have seen little men in stature tell demon possesed folks to be quiet and sit down in the name of Christ and low and behold they obey. why cause its not the man its the God behind the man. i have known men and missionaries who would blanch at the idea of a believer being attacked by a devil cause one of his brothers prayed for his deliverence without permission. i have heard failures at deliverence say well i guess God wants them in there and shrug and walk away cause demon told tse them they had no right to remove it. ah faithless and perverse generation… taking the word of the devil over the word of God. pray and fast until they flee. its the lion of Judah that gets em running and if He is in you then trust and pray. but oy vey never listen to the enemy of course he will say stuff like you need permission or you are not strong enough. to that i say your right i am not strong enough but i know one who is He sits at the right hand of God and he will cast you out not me.

  63. Chairos Seeker

    TJSmith: “When, again, was this interview?”

    It was sometime in 2007. Toward the end of the year, I think. So, it was almost 10 years after Jones was released from discipline, according to the letter cited upthread.

    thegreycoats: “Its ok to criticize.”

    Roger that. It’s just that I sometimes seem to have the spiritual gift of criticism ;), so I want to reserve my ammo for those times when I feel special conviction or need.

    “we dont need permission to cast them from us”

    You and I seem to have common ground in preferring deliverance to be performed gently and with regard for the dignity of them victim. The asking of God is not a question of strength and permission so much as time and place. Also, there’s the issue of how. Often, demonic influence is associated with sin, which needs to be discovered and confessed. Once that’s done, deliverance tends to go more smoothly.

    I certainly wouldn’t infer that God wants a demon to remain in any case nor would I be content to leave one in place. Really, all I’m saying is that it’s wise to solicit God’s wisdom and listen to Him before initiating deliverance or, for that matter, ministry of any kind. I understood Joyner’s account as consistent with that thinking. Since much of my thinking about these issues is rooted in Wimber’s teaching, I have some reason to anticipate common elements between Joyner’s thinking and my own. I could be reading my own views into his statements. There’s always that risk.

    OTOH, please don’t misunderstand me as a general apologist for Joyner. For one thing, I’m premillienial and at least moderately dispensational whereas he seems to be rather extremely postmillenial. So, I strongly question Jones’ and Joyner’s visions and teachings about the end times.

    BTW, I’ve had only about five encounters with folks I think were likely influenced/oppressed by demons. I don’t want to sound as though I think I’m an expert. I’m not and I know that I’m not. But, I’ve trained under some folks with extensive experience and tend to respect their opinions in such matters.

  64. Chairos Seeker

    Bill: “Funny Mahesh story- he was praying for a friend of mine, and really pushing on him. My friend did not go down, Mahesh pushed more. Finally my friend raised his eyebrows and shrugged, and Mahesh walked on. You had to be there.”

    Thanks for sharing that story. I find it simultaneously (1) funny and (2) disturbing with respect to Mahesh. I can’t quite get why people–other than televangelists–would push on people in that fashion. Is it insecurity, ego, misplaced desire to catalyze ministry, or what? No matter the reason for the practice, I see it as akin to “strange fire.”

  65. Bill–

    Do you know if Jones’ wife, who is spoken of in that article is dead or did they divorce, because i know Bonnie Kost and him have only been married a couple years.

    I ask this because divorce and remarriage in leadership has always been just the height of hypocracy for me (unless of course there was a just reason– in his wife’s case she’d have had a LOT of reason to dump his sorry butt) he’s the bee’s knees to many of those in the prophetic movement and that on top of the misconduct is SUCH a bad example to these folks.

    But anymore, ANYTHING GOES with these people– they’ll proof text their way out of being held accountable for their actions. Bob Jones even pulled a Flip Wilson (the devil made me do it) with the misconduct charge.

    It grosses me out that creeps like him are allowed back into leadership positions.

  66. (unless of course there was a just reason– in his wife’s case she’d have had a LOT of reason to dump his sorry butt)

    Let me expound on that— biblically he shouldnt have gotten remarried if this is the case, If his wife died then he could.

  67. I don’t know and I’m not too interested.

    I don’t have to look any further than the odd prophetic practices to find trouble.

  68. Chairos Seeker

    Bill: “I don’t have to look any further than the odd prophetic practices to find trouble.”

    In view of odd OT prophetic practices such as going around naked (more or less common today, but not then), marrying a disloyal whore, or cooking one’s food over burning dung, I’m unsure that odd practices are enough to mark a prophet as false. But, again, I don’t mean to defend the prophecies of Jones or Cain, many of which seem to me to contradict Scripture. Incompatibility with Scripture is, I think, the most reliable test of an alleged prophet/prophecy. Of course, applying that test entails holding one’s fallible interpretation/exegesis as the standard, which is somewhat risky. That standard didn’t work out well for the Pharisees. But, I myself know of no better test.

  69. thegreycoats

    C.S.

    you cant have it both ways. theses guys are either real ot prophets or they are not. if they are then we need to get our rocks out cause they gotta be right all the time.if they arent then why liosten to these folks at all?

  70. Chairos Seeker

    TGC: “you cant have it both ways.”

    With due respect, I think you confuse my concern for method with my conclusions. I think you and I generally share the same view of these guys. But, I want to bust them on a felony rather than a misdemeanor or, worse yet, present a faulty case the judge would throw out.

    The point I’m trying to get at isn’t whether or not these guys are real prophets. It’s how we make that determination. I don’t think odd behavior is a Biblically sanctioned method for distinguishing a false prophet. Moral character, doctrinal correctness, and (at least in the OT) validity of prediction seem to me to be the Biblical methods. These guys have real problems on those scores, I agree.

    But, now that you mention it, I do think you may be proposing a false dichotomy, depending on exactly what you mean. I think they might hear from God at some times and from demons or the self at other times. Personally, I’m not into separating the wheat from the chaff–or, perhaps more accurately, the poison from the drinking water–so I pay them and their alleged prophecies little attention. And, in that operational sense I’d agree they’re false prophets. But, that doesn’t imply in my mind that everything they say is false or that they never hear from God. A mixture of sources seems to me far more risky and scary than a single, patently demonic source.

    Is that a bit clearer? Thanks for bearing with me.

  71. Chairos Seeker

    I recently re-read portions of Bill Jackson’s book The Quest for the Radical Middle: A History of the Vineyard, for purposes unrelated to this blog entry. Nevertheless, while doing so, I could not help but notice some relevant claims, which I now relate. One reason I find these claims relevant is that Mike Bickle wrote an approving opinion that appears on the back cover of the book. The opinion states: “Bill Jackson’s thorough and accuratehistory of the Vineyard combines scholarly research with a kindness that will promote healing in relationships. It will serve the larger body of Christ as we see how God intervened with grace to anoint weak people as vessels of His kingdom” [emphasis added].

    p. 216, “The first shot in the prophetic wars was fired on January 21, 1990. In his Sunday morning message entitled, ‘Do We Keep on Smiling and Say Nothing?’ an influential Charismatic pastor named Ernie Gruen accused Kansas City Fellowship of a while series of abuses with the prophetic ministry. There were three or four meetings in the late ’80s where Gruen confronted KCF with the goal of correction. The issue had appeared settled when Gruen wrote them in 1989 saying the ‘differences between us were resolved.’ The next exchange between them, however, came through the sermon tape that was sent around the world as a warning against false prophecy (especially by Bob Jones) and a new ‘Charismatic heresy.’ He believed Satan had deceived Mike and that the prophets were prophesying by a ‘familiar spirit.'”

    p. 218, “On June 28th [1990] . . . Gruen agreed to stop his attacks on MVF [Metro Vineyard Fellowship, formerly Kansas City Fellowhips] and Paul Cain.”

    p. 218, “Gruen wrote on July 1 that he realized that he had been wrong about Paul Cain and exonerated him from all wrongdoing. He released the whole controversy into Wimber’s hands feeling that he had done what his conscience had dictated. He said it was not his responsibility to provide either correction or approval.”

    p. 218f., “Wimber [found] the MVF guilty of a number of errors and released a statement of those errors, which were also published in the fall 1990 issue of Equipping the Saints. Some of these included: A lack of accountability for prophecy; Allowing prophetic men to teach who were not gifted to do so; The attempt by some prophetic men to establish doctrine on the basis of prophecy; Dogmatic assertions in the delivery of prophetic words; Using jargon from groups that the Vineyard was trying to distance itself from; Manifesting an attitude of superiority through the information gained in prophecy.”

    p. 219, “It should be noted that James A. Beverly would later point out that his research indicated that Wimber’s article was really the work of Jack Deere who was openly sympathetic to Bickle. A source close to Wimber also reported to me [Bill Jackson] that Wimber later came to believe that the facts in the case had been somewhat biased toward KCF [Kansas City Fellowship] and, while never acknowledging it publicly, privately apologized to Gruen for being careless and unbalanced.”

    p. 219, “In obedience to 1 Timothy 5:20 where Paul counsels Timothy to publicly rebuke an elder who sins, Wimber disciplined Bickle before 7,000 people at MVF’s annual conference in June of 1991. Bickle responded with deep humility and brokenness.”

  72. Sorry I haven’t checked this page in a long time, but I’m glad I did to scope out the info that you found (Chairos).

    At first glance it is relevant to the issue, so what I feel I am left with is that Gruen (now) fervently said he didn’t take back anything from the report, but now claims of a historian say otherwise, but there isn’t any documentation from the book (I don’t have the book, but as far as what you posted, thats all I can assess) so I’m left with the story we’ve had for a while. Source A says source B did something that source B says he never did. So at the end of the day, without documented proof of source B doing what source B said he didn’t do, I must rely on source B for source B’s actions.

    Does that make sense?

  73. Chairos Seeker

    Devin, it’s all in how you look at the data, I think. Although Jackson’s account contradicts Gruen’s on a few fine points, I think that the two accounts are much more consistent than inconsistent. According to Jackson, Gruen withdrew charges related to Cain. But, Gruen held fast to the bulk of the charges. Isn’t that essentially what Gruen has claimed?

    IMO, the combined accounts of Jackson and Gruen–coming as they do from opposite sends of the controversy–make it just about certain that there were serious, real, ongoing problems at KCF, just as Gruen claimed. It’s those who cite IHOP as saying the charges were groundless and therefore withdrawn that have trouble with Jackson’s version of events, I think. Mike Bickle’s testimony on the back cover pretty well puts the nail in the coffin of that whole line of argumentation, doesn’t it?

  74. Chairos Seeker

    P.S. Jackson is writing as a historian, it is true. But, I’d say he’s clearly identified with the Vineyard and Wimber. So, I wouldn’t push the idea that he’s all that objective. For that matter, I’m unsure he has training as a historian. Actually, it’s specifically his association with the Vineyard that makes the cited portions of his account credible, IMO. He is a more or less a primary source.

  75. yeah, makes sense, i have appreciated how you can break things down, eventho i haven’t been on here and talked with you very much, but i have read lots of things you’ve written and been appreciative

  76. See, Chairios, you are indeed appreciated here, even if we don’t always personally see eye to eye on everything. I enjoy too interacting with your posts here. I appreciate your courtesy.

    So please don’t be a stranger. We all need positive point/counterpoint input to keep us on our toes.

  77. Chairos Seeker

    Thanks, y’all.

    Blessings,

  78. Tricia Tillin (Booth)

    Hi, I’m the one who transcribed the Ernie Gruen document for the Internet and placed it on my website. I did so as an overall examination of the KCP, Toronto et al. I am a bible-believing evangelical Christian, as you’ll probably see from the rest of my site. However that site is now only running as an archive as I am no longer active in ministry. If you have any questions I’d be glad to answer them.
    Tricia

  79. TimH

    Not speaking for the moderators but what a great thing to see you have read this site and welcome indeed. I have read much of your site and thank you for your hard work in this area.

    God Bless

  80. kena

    Tricia,

    Hello – I am glad to be able to directly thank you for your site. Thank You!

    The archived site has been so very helpful to me.

    I found myself wondering what would your views and insights be of the ‘current players’ as they play their game in the fringes of Christianity.

    But that is a large question.

    I look forward to reading your comments. I also may just come up with a reasonable question!

    Kena

  81. Great site, Tricia.

    I visit it often and enjoy it for its completeness.

  82. Matthew

    I’ve just read through all the comments on your interview with Ernie post, and I didn’t want to read through all the comments on this article too. As a result, I might have missed someone already answering my question, but has anyone proven the validity of Ernie Gruen’s grandson’s website?

    I pointed out the apparent contradictions in http://apollos.wordpress.com/2008/02/02/ernie-gruen/ and asked about them, but I was just told to shut up. If the interview is true, then I’d be alarmed about IHOP, but I’m rather skeptical of the both of them after those interactions.

  83. Tim H

    Yes it was validated, and I myself communicated with him and recommended that he speak to this issue. He did so in favor of his grandfather.

    He posted both at his site and this one….

    The more that we have communicated with others, especially those who were close to John Wimber the more that Ernie Gruen has been validated. It’s true my friend and you should be concerned that someone told you to keep your mouth shut…. censorship at it’s best.

  84. Matthew

    No, I’m saying I was told by “Apollos” to shut up after I asked about inconsistencies in his comments. That’s why I’m disinclined to believe him (them.)

  85. Layla

    Would you be willing to share that conversation with us?

    Was it in e-mail form or on a blog where we can see the comments?

  86. Timh

    Matthew,

    I went back and read the Apollos site and see what you are talking about.

    I can’t answer that “issue” (name mis-spelling) for you or the other person that brought out the same question, nor the reason that he asked you not to post.

    I do know that I communicated with “Apollos” on private e-mail and I have no reason to dis-believe I wasn’t speaking to Ernie Gruens grandson or that the post wasn’t genuine and just an honest mistake.

    Obviously, you do question it based on a mis-spelling of a name when in the original article it was spelled correctly. Butthen it may be that Mr. Gruen doesn’t know how to spell it but the person (Tricia) who transcribed the information for the web did spell it correctly. Tricia posted a comment above and stated that she transcribed it for the web for her site.

  87. thegreycoats

    ok matthew

    I know for a fact that we spoke to the real ernie gruen. how do i know? because the real ernie gruen confronted the real mike bickle in front of a bunch of real pastors in the Midwest concerning the real rumors that were being spread. as you can see i have probably misspelled bickels name and i write about ihop. more than not being me it is likely that i am a bad speller. and trust me ernie is not one i would invite to a spelling bee. Apollos is realy Gruens real grandson as well. now if you still dont believe me what can i tell you. Mike Bickel knows we talked to the real Gruen. Go ask him.

  88. Matthew

    Layla,
    Yes, the conversation is in actual comments on his blog.

    Tim,
    Your transcription answer is a plausible scenario. However, there are just too many contradictions for me to swallow this. Take, for example, the fact that in his first post he said, “My grandfather said that he and Mike Bickle are now on good terms and he actually supports Mike’s ministry.” However, he then denied that in the comments. His grandfather didn’t exactly give me the impression that they were best buds either. One prime example in the e-mail exchange was, “Though Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs unethically look for any reason to slander me.”

    Greycoat,
    What can I say? I just can’t buy the inconsistencies in their testimonies. I’m a skeptical guy, and, looking at your site, I don’t see how you can begrudge me that.

  89. Timh

    Matthew,

    Ok bro… you search out the truth then as you need it. In the discussions we had with Ernie Gruen he mostly said he had a problem with Bob Jones and really didn’t put down Mike Bickle so much.

    And his grandson was questioned, if I remember right, the point about grandpa supporting Mike Bickle. His answer to the post masses was that his grandfather was trying to support him (Apollos) while he was at IHOP. Sooooo…… be skeptical I guess and keep researching. The moderators of this post have always said that if they were proven wrong about this that they would retrack what was posted. But I’ve got to tell you I have heard recent interviews with other people from radio programs and so far they are corroberating what we have been told about this incident and so far so good.

    Blessing

  90. Tim, could ya kick me some links to the radio shows?

  91. Chairos Seeker

    Devin: “Tim, could ya kick me some links to the radio shows?”

    Now I know where Todd Bentley got his moves. . . .

  92. Timh

    devinasheville
    June 30, 2008 at

    I linked one under the ask away xp which has a small bit from a man that was involved in Vineyard and shares some things about Wimber and the KC/Toronto stuff. Doesn’t come right out and say anything about Gruen but from what it eludes to it falls in line with what Gruen siad and what CS has shared with us. This one was from Andrew Strom site, right hand side of home page.

    I’ll have to find the others. Usually I save them and put them on CD to listen in the car. I’ll link what I can find later,

  93. Chairos Seeker

    TimH, yeah, saw that one live. TB is lucky the guy’s gut didn’t burst, which could have led to a reckless endangerment or involuntary manslaughter charge. I suppose it’s merely a question of time. . . .

    Wait a sec–I just remembered that the dear Rev. Todd Bentley’s voice can raise the dead, as one (alleged) resurrectee claimed. I guess TB need have no fear. . . .

  94. thegreycoats

    matt
    can i call you matt? i dont be grudge you a thing. but i am telling you we have the real goods. and appolos is gruens real grandson. take it or leave it . truth is truth. and what what.

  95. Namaste950

    So I was feeling investigative the other day.

    I sent this to IHOP’s general information email address.

    “Hello,

    I have several friends that are a part of my church that have done internships at IHOP. I had heard about it before and had researched it somewhat. I have now done more research. I have a question about the Ernie Gruen Report that was done in 1990’s about Mike Bickle and his church. It has to do with this blog article that contains a recent interview with Ernie Gruen.

    https://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/the-vindication-of-ernie-gruen/

    My question is this, do you know where story came from that Ernie Gruen recanted his criticisms?”

    They replied with this…

    “Mike Bickle and Ernie Gruen had a reconciliation meeting in May 1993 asking one another for forgiveness during which time an open letter was written to express this. In June 1995 the leadership of the two churches involved in the controversy wrote another open letter affirming the reconciliation.”

    Thoughts?

  96. Sam

    Matthew and Namaste950,

    Someone’s telling porky pies.

    I can understand your questions Matthew, I saw your inquiries were shrugged off a while ago by Apollos and thought that was questionable.

    That being said, this whole thing doesn’t depend on the integrity of Apollos or even Ernie himself who apparently fell out of favour a few years after he completed this report, because of some personal decisions. It depends on the cold hard facts contained within that report, given by eye-witnesses and words straight from the horse’s mouth [unedited tapes of KCP preachers].

    Even if Ernie and Apollos rescinded, and they did make up in 1993, the fact would remain that Bickle, Cain, Jones and the whole circus brazenly abused the flock, and they obviously haven’t come to terms with that, judging by Namaste950’s response from IHOP above.

    So who’s telling the lies? I reckon you could safely say that the IHOP crew are, and there’s no sign of that stopping, until someone high up the food chain nails ’em. I can’t wait for the day.

  97. Chairos Seeker

    Namaste950, I suggest that you follow up by asking for copies of the open letters published in 1993 and 1995. If they’re truly “open,” they ought to be available upon request.

    But, let’s be clear that the (alleged) forgiveness and reconciliation don’t necessarily have a bearing on the accuracy of Gruen’s charges. The parties to the dispute could have forgiven one another for any of a variety of offenses. Reconciliation does not imply rescission.

  98. Pingback: IHOP responds to the vindication of Ernie Gruen…sort of | The Grey Coats

  99. Ha, Ha, a Pingback from the new Greycoats blog.
    I guess 8-8-08 is coming quick. Everybody report to Stonehenge for the ceremony.

  100. thegreycoats

    Bill
    did you get the cyber goat to sacrifice?

  101. thegreycoats

    I am with CS. we know they made nice when wimber took the wheel, but we now know gruen never recanted what was in the report. that was what was in question.

  102. Regarding:
    http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000035952

    I would have two questions:

    1. Is that really the signature of the “correct” Ernie Gruen?

    2. If it is, what exactly does the same Ernie Gruen claim that it meant then and does he still think the same?

    I read statements of beliefs at IHOP.org, and while I don’t comment on their eschatology, I can’t find any fault in their “Core Beliefs” nor in their “Affirmations and Denials.” But there’s still the question of whether practice lines up with policy.

    In 1973 or 1974, I was a bit disturbed at the theatricality of Kathryn Kuhlman. Then I heard her speak to a group of Christians (unconnected with any of her “public” meetings) and got a completely different view. Her message was all about dying to self, submitting to Christ, and so on. Good stuff and right on! (Plus, her voice and mannerisms were still very theatrical. Apparently, that’s merely her personality.
    There have been other occasions where I privately agreed with the criticisms of various semi-famous ministries, and yet when I heard them in person, what they had to say was right on and unconnected with what they were attacked for.

  103. Bill

    I don’t think it’s wise to try to get involved or expose something you know nothing about. You do not know these people. You weren’t there when this happen. How fair would it be if someone walked around with a tape recorder and microscope and examined everything you did and said? Then how fair would it be if someone picked you apart piece by piece showing you every moment where you messed up and every place where you were inconsistent? It wouldn’t be nice now would it? I don’t think this situation is truly for anyone that wasn’t directly involved to give an opinion on.

    Both parties claim to know Jesus. Take them at their words and treat them like brothers in the faith. Why perpetuate fear and anxiety in people? What church teaches perfect doctrine and theology? I doubt your church does, but i’m sure your pastor and it’s leaders try their best. All these guys in Kansas City are trying their best. God is so much greater than our different doctrinal persuassions, and he may call people to go to IHOP to receive. He fully knows IHOP’s strength’s and weaknesses. He is a good shepherd and leader.

    It’s just funny to me. I know countless people who have only fallen more in love with Jesus because of Mike Bickle. I know people who are saved and walk in holiness and righteousness because of the fruit of his ministry. I would hate for you to be tearing down something that God has anointed. Even when Saul was in disobedience and out to kill David. David didn’t touch or harm him because he was God’s anointed.

    again, you may not agree. that’s fine. But it’s not wisdom and you don’t have authority to tear down something you didn’t help build. you seem to be hurt over these people leaving your church. I would give that to Him and not wear your woundedness on your sleave. i’ve done that before, and all it does is make you appear immature and prideful.

    -a concerned christian

  104. Bill

    so i looked at your sites and i noticed you seem to have a lot of other thoughts on other ministries as well.

    normally i don’t comment on blogs like these and ignore them when i stumble across them.

    but i think you guys are authentic. so i’m going to tell you this.

    the way you recognize the false is to know the true so well. People that try to discern money fraud do so by not studying what counterfeit money looks like, but by studying the true. They look at real dollar bills all the time.

    I think the Beauty of Jesus is like that. Just look at Him. Point others to look at Him. All the stuff that’s not of him will just fall away eventually in light of eternity.

    i know the charismatic movement has a bad rep with conservative or reformed circles because of weirdness and flakiness. But as hard as many rationalize cessationism you cannot deny the authentic God demonstrating raw power of finite creatures. You can’t tell someone who was healed of cancer that it was false and God doesn’t do that.
    Even more, you can’t tell me that my friend who was on her death bed was healed of hepatitis C, auto amune disease, etc in Lakeland Florida during Todd Bentley’s meetings. My 16 year old friend has written documentation from the bloodwork done probing her healing.

    now some of you may or may not believe in “healing” but you can’t tell a healthy 16 year old girl who was on the verge of death that God doesn’t do that. Or even that Lakeland was a false revival. My friend is one of 3 people that i personally know who were healed of during Todd Bentley meetings.

    so my unsolicited advice for all the greycoats is this.

    Keep loving Jesus.
    But also love His Bride.
    And loving His bride does not look like being critical of other movements and denominations.
    You can’t tear down something you didn’t help build.

    -an even more concerned believer.

  105. stevepage

    Good reporting Grey coats. Thank you for the time and effort that you spent on this. God Bless

  106. stevepage

    P.S. I see that Wiki has changed what they say about Mr. Ernie Gruen.

    @ Bill “the way you recognize the false is to know the true so well. People that try to discern money fraud do so by not studying what counterfeit money looks like, but by studying the true. They look at real dollar bills all the time.”

    That does not even make sense dude. They study both the false and the true.

    “But it’s not wisdom and you don’t have authority to tear down something you didn’t help build.”

    This is also a nonsense statement. It goes against everything Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 5. The Grey coats have wisely alerted the brethren to fallacy. I say good job Grey Coats.

  107. jarrod

    Thanks Steve.

    @Bill. I dont discount folks getting healed, but I do try to differentiate between spiritual power and Divine power. God heals people I believe that,but there aint no rule book that says the devil cant as well. My judgement on Bentlies ministry was based on his teaching and practice. you judge wrongly if you think any of us are afraid of the supernatural moving of God. We simply expect it to point to the true revelation of God, The full revelation of God, The Lord Jesus Himself. now all that aside I cant tear down what i didn’t build is rubbish. I am glad to not have built that structure. If we are talking about men building things fine i wont wreck your play house. Yet God can use who ever and whatever He wants to tear an idol down. if He uses us so be it. To tell me Keep loving Jesus.
    But also love His Bride.
    And loving His bride does not look like being critical of other movements and denominations.
    You can’t tear down something you didn’t help build. is quite spiritual but misses the point of our sight. We do love His Bride. Sadly that does mean being critical of other movements and denominations if they are straying or propagating false doctrine. just cause you say Jesus dont mean you are on the level. Christ calls us to use discernment so do the apostles Its the false prophets who tell you that using discernment is sin. I wonder why that is?? Sadly and i mean this in all due respect perhaps you need to reevaluate what love looks like. Not warning and correcting our brethren when they are heading towards destruction is pretty unloving indeed.

  108. sometimes love have to be firm/tough. Just like the disciplines of Abba/Father. Not pleasant but its love in action!

  109. Betty,

    Well said. Verb/noun aspects of love must be attended to.

  110. Pingback: The Vindication of E. Gruen and the Truth about IHOP « The Church of Jesus Christ

  111. NOLR History

    Christian Kabbalah

    You guys really need to come to grips with the core historical theology behind false prophets Paul Cain and Bob Jones and the rest of the New Order of the Latter Rain. Sure, Ernie is now fully vindicated, but wouldn’t it really be great if the 256-page report that Ernie worked so hard on would open the door to people understanding that Bickle and Co. are embracing the Christian Kabbalah doctrines of 17th century occultist Jane Leade and the Philadelphian Society.

    I met Ernie in 1982 at his Shawnee Mission Kansas church. He’s a great guy and never deserved the spiritual backlash from Bickle and subsequently John Wimber (Vineyard Fellowship) where Jack Deere led the entire Vineyard congregation to curse Ernie because of his honest and forthright report. Jack Deer is headed for hell just like his son and the rest of these Latter Rain occultists.

    Where are the real theologians who are willing to spend the time and get to the history behind the heretical ideas that Mike Bickle, John Wimber, Rick Joyner, Bill Hamon, Bob Weiner, Cindy Jacobs, Dutch Sheets, C. Peter Wagner, Lee Grady, Steven Strang, etc. are really into?

    The historical investigation has already been completed. All that’s left is the dissemination of the history to those who really give a damn as opposed to those who are an inch thick and a mile wide in their theology.

    Wake up!!

    Time is short and America is at stake because of the wrath, indignation and fury of God upon America for Christians embracing the following 4(four) heretical movements:

    1) Word-of-Faith (restoration of the “Language of Adam”)
    2) New Order of the Latter Rain (NOLR) and re-packaged as the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) led by the International Coalition of [false] Apostles (ICA)
    3) Emergent Church (did God really say?)
    4) Purpose-Driven cult — Rick Warren’s mentor/professor that signed off on his Fuller Theological doctoral dissertation was “Super Apostle” C. Peter Wagner. Warren is also a member of CFR. What’s wrong with that picture?

    Wake up? You have got a whole lot of time to jack around with Ernie’s report. Get to the core theology of Christian Kabbalah and do it now!

  112. jarrod

    What a great advertisement. thanx for that. I mean I’m sold I think I’ll run right out and try to find a 17th century Christian kaballah. whew thanx for pointing that out I thought we had done a pretty decent thing with this report ya know validating its authenticity and clearing up some gross misunderstanding caused by lies about ol Gruen. turn out we didn’t do enough. Go figure. Well thats what we get for playin fast and loose with this stuff. Oy Vey 17th century Kaballah? Really?? thats as far back as you can go and your upset? what about 2cnd century and 3rd century what about valentinian gnosticism and montanism? are those just too antiquated? Thanx for the wake up call I have never been berated by someone for not knowing some random peice of history which is obviously common knowledge that we just choose to ignore.

    Grow up.

  113. NOLR History,

    Are you serious? While we do sometimes deal with questionable and heretical concepts/movements/leaders on this blog we are not a ‘heresy hunting’ blog. You seem to have a particular historical sense that I am not aware of. Personally, I believe that a mixture of Roman Catholic mystical tradition, semi-Pelagianism, dispensationalist, and neo-Montanist concepts have more to do with our NAR friends than Kaballah, but I have been wrong before. Finally, if you are so concerned, WordPress adds who-knows-how-many new blogs a day. Start one.

  114. Hey Guys,
    Just wanted to thank you for taking down my capitalized prophecy about the future events that are coming upon America and the church and the leaders of this nation. I see that you have no wisdom, for if you did you would allow others to judge such things but because your “The Grey Coats” you continue to do the same things “The Grey Coats” did in Mike Bickles movement who had me arrested. Trying to control the prophetic by removing prophecies and editing tapes. That’s okay though because everything hidden will be brought to the light. So now I speak to you the overseers of this domain. You might not have heard yet but up here in the city close to me a Grey Coat was shot and killed in the pulpit and some members we’re also stabbed at the Maryville Babtist Church, and now that same Spirit better known as The Destroyer is headed your way. I leave you with the word of the Lord. Repent and quit fighting with Davids Order and get out of Sauls camp before you are over taken by the destroyer! Your only hope is to preach the Cross of Christ and The Blood. Repent

  115. jarrod

    Yeah Thanx for that. I don’t even know what your talking about? I saw no Capitalizied prophecy. but umm OK . oh and thanx for assuming you know what we preach on the home front as well. I love it when folks assume things… We all know what assuming does don’t we. Oh and thanx for the threat err I mean warning that was interesting. Jesus died for me. What is it to me if I die in His name but honor I don’t deserve. God give me the grace to stand firm if I do get shot while I preach the gospel.

    Thanx again wonderful chatting with you.

  116. Hidden Prophet,

    I’ve taken your threat seriously and notified the authorities of its content. Furthermore, I do own several guns and while I don’t make a practice of preaching armed I have no problem defending my family.

  117. Iwanthetruth

    “…I see that you have no wisdom, for if you did you would allow others to judge such things but because your “The Grey Coats” you continue to do the same things “The Grey Coats” did in Mike Bickles movement who had me arrested.

    Hey, I read a while back on another site and I thought maybe on this site before you went .com a posty by a person who admitted that they had been at IHOP one night and he tried to get more involved in the prayer time, prophecying and he also wore some questionable clothing. He admitted in his post that the ushers went to him and asked him to stop and they had to have him removed. I don’t know if you ever saw that one or remember that post, but I sure wonder if tis is teh same person…. I bet IHOP has not had many people arrested. I bet they may know who this person is….

  118. IWTT,

    Thanks for the lead. I’m checking it out.

  119. E

    scott February 26, 2008 at 9:15 am: It also might be a good idea to add the fact that Ernie Gruen ran off with the secretary of his former church.

    thegreycoats February 26, 2008 at 4:03 pm: Scott if you look at the bottom of the gruen interview he mentions h[i]s immorality and says [i]t took place years after the report.

    A quote from Bill Jackson’s book cited above states:

    p. 216, “The first shot in the prophetic wars was fired on January 21, 1990. In his Sunday morning message entitled, ‘Do We Keep on Smiling and Say Nothing?’ an influential Charismatic pastor named Ernie Gruen accused Kansas City Fellowship of a while series of abuses with the prophetic ministry.

    Ernie Gruen states in his interview with you:

    10. Why did you stop circulating the report? See answer in question #6.

    Though Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs unethically look for any reason to slander me, the personal situation involving me occurred several years after the “Aberrant Document” was released. It had and has no relationship to the contents of the document or its release whatsoever.

    I think there’s a chronological problem here. We lived in Kansas City at the time of the controversy and had attended both churches (i.e., Gruen’s and Bickle’s; in fact, we’d off-and-on attended Bickle’s church since the time he came to town in 1983, as well as Gruen’s church from even before that time). I still have a copy of the “Do we keep on smiling and say nothing?” sermon tape, given to me by a coworker who attended Full Faith Church of Love, who also gave me a copy of the 233-page report (which I no longer have; or perhaps he gave me a copy of an abridged version). We were in a Vineyard Church at the time of the Gruen-Bickle conflict, and when Bickle’s church joined Vineyard (under Wimber’s “restoration”/discipline effort), our pastor, who sympathized with Gruen’s concerns, pulled his/our church out of the Vineyard.

    We left Kansas City in the summer of 1990. I would guess it was less than a year later – maybe even as early as 6 months or less later – that I heard about Ernie Gruen running away with his secretary. (And also heard that his son(s) brought him back home after that marriage fell apart, and he repented and remarried his first wife.)

    Thus, it was not “years after the report” (Bill Jackson’s book) or “several years after the ‘Aberrant Document’ was released” (Ernie Gruen’s statement) that Ernie left his wife for his secretary. Rather, it was perhaps a year or so, more or less.

    Unless my memory is very faulty, I don’t know why Gruen seems to be misstating the truth about how soon after the Full Faith-Kansas City Fellowship controversy he married and ran off with his secretary.

  120. Tim H

    E,

    Is the 233 page document true in it’s content about the Kansas City Prophets?

    Is the tape true in it’s content about the Kansas City Prophets?

    Was there and is there abherent practices at that time that are carrying over to present day?

  121. E

    Re: my last post.

    I’ve tried to find on the Internet dates for Ernie Gruen’s marrying his secretary, but have been unable to do so.

    I said my memory could be faulty, and though I couldn’t find a date for Ernie’s marriage to his secretary, I remembered that Nick Jordan had taken over as pastor when Ernie left. So I Googled for Nick Jordan and Full Faith Church of Love and found this:

    “In 1993, Jordan became the lay minister of the Full Faith Church of Love in Shawnee after its founding pastor left suddenly. He held that position for 18 months. The church has since been renamed the Cross Points Church.”

    It looks like my memory is indeed faulty (a lot happened to us and our family during the 1990s), and that Ernie’s marriage to his secretary did happen “years after” the January 1990 paper.

    Please consider this a retraction or correction of my previous post. Thanks!

  122. E

    Tim H asked:

    Is the 233 page document true in it’s content about the Kansas City Prophets?

    Is the tape true in it’s content about the Kansas City Prophets?

    Was there and is there abherent practices at that time that are carrying over to present day?

    I’d have to reread the report to know if its content is true, and I’d be going by what they say, as I have no personal experience of these things. We knew/saw/heard Bickle, Jones, Paul Cain, etc., but were never personally directly impacted or affected by their ministries or prophecies. The contents of the “Aberrant” report came from transcribed tapes of sermons or messages from Mike Bickle and Bob Jones, and I think there are lengthy excerpts in the report. Ernie described some of the incidents in his taped message, “Do we keep on smiling and say nothing?”

    I have no idea or knowledge of current practices. We haven’t been involved with Bickle’s church or that movement since we left Kansas City in 1990. We’ve come in contact with people who are involved with IHOP (Bickle’s prayer ministry/organization), but we ourselves are not involved with it or with them.

  123. Tim H

    Thank you for your response and especially for your honesty and retraction of the info you posted. I appreciate it when one is willing to step back and correct error, shows integrity.

    By the way, you do not need to go through all of that material for the benefit of my questions. It is so long ago anymore and there has been much more that has come out of that time period. It is good just to know that the truth is being brought out and that any lies and deception is being uncovered.

    Where are you now? East coast, west coast, Pacific Northwest, or somewhere in the middle? Are you a pastor or lay person?

  124. E

    Just a lay guy in the vicinity of Dallas, TX. 🙂

  125. Tim H

    Excellent… Well good communicating with you.

  126. Don Walker

    I am a former associate of Ernie’s. Last evening June 1, 2009 Ernie went home to be with the Lord. I thought you might like to know.

  127. Tim H

    Thank you Mr. Walker. My condolences to the family.

  128. Hidden Prophet

    Hey Grey Coats,
    Jarrod seems to think I’m threatening him but he’s wrong I am prophecying to him and to all you other Grey coats. We have now seen Ernie Gruen pass who I have had the opportunity to speak with, and also Micheal Jackson. Just a couple of figures in leadership positions that I spoke of on your web page that has now been removed. I will repeat myself one last time before God begins to deal with you. Repent and quit fighting and slandering and mocking others with your words that are being spoken, this is Sauls order who throw spears and that’s what the Grey Coats represent. Repent and turn away from these type of acts and pray for your enemies and learn the word of God. From this day forward if any of you pass from this life into eternity I personally will be coming to Kansas City to meet this group face to face and end this mockery and battle between the Blue Coats known as the North and the Grey Coats known as the South and we know who won the Civil War and what it represents in the spirit. Repent and turn away, GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED.HIDDEN PROPHET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok so I was a little harsh there. My bad. But seriously you greycoats are wonderful people and I love you. oh and please disregard what i just wrote I am having problems at home and if you cannot already tell am quite unstable. See I still live with my mom and spend most of my days wearing my pajamas. It’s so sad. Here I am 40 years old with home of my own and all I have to cling to is my misguided albeit quirky belief that I am a prophet. Sadly I am no such thing. I think I just need a hobby or a girlfriend or maybe I need to really meet Jesus for the first time. I don’t know.

  129. jarrod

    WOW! ummmm yeah, uhhhhh thanx for that hidden guy. that was ummm really something. maybe you should consider a career in crazy or not from God. Just sayin.

  130. Hidden Prophet,

    Just because you wear the stretchy pants and drink Big Gulp Mountain Dew while trolling through various blogs doesn’t mean your not good enough, smart enough, and likeable enough to realize your dreams. Enough with the talk. Put down the Mars bar and pick up the remote…now watch the Jackson funeral, but pay special attention to the subversive codewords hidden in Lionel Ritchie’s eulogy. Once you understand the spiritual meaning behind Jermaine’s facial tic you will have gleaned the true knowledge and key to everlasting prophetic power. It can be yours…don’t aim so low man…the annointing is within your grasp. After you’ve achieved this level of ascension please return and share…..with both armies man….indeed, such vital knowledge will surely end the strife between blue and grey. Onward hidden one, your destiny awaits!!

  131. Troll Kalla Mik

    Typing in caps = yelling. It may be difficult to remain hidden if you yell “HIDDEN PROPHET!!!!!!!!!!!” whenever you finish speaking. But I don’t know. Just the concept of a hidden prophet I find kinda silly. I mean, a name works. I actually get this feeling that if they had internet back in the days of Jonah, he probably would have logged on to Nineveh’s blog site with a pseudonym like “Hidden Prophet” and totally hooked them up from a safe distance! Do you have a twitter? It’d be pretty sweet if the greycoats could just subscribe to that, so that you can twitter “prophecies” of their destruction to them all day! Ya know, just keep them updated on all the latest things, like the word of God (which we know, is always changing!), the power the Spirit has given you (cause we all know, you control Him!), and the color of your sweatpants, all that good stuff!

  132. Doree

    Greycoates
    I don’t know who you are but I am glad I found you. I accidently happened upon the cult stuff with IHOP and was shocked. I just got done reading the 132 page version of the Gruen Report and wondered what has happened in the 20 years since then. Personally, I see (from my distant vantage point) too many eye witness and personal testimony to think everything is ok there, but wanted to know if there was an ‘official’ word out there at all?

    I was happy (sad) to find that Ernie held to his guns and I guess Bickle, Jones etc are still up to their game.

    What really ticks me off is the Church is doing nothing (or knows nothing) (or CHOSES to know nothing) about this whole fiasco. What? Shame on us that we allow things like this to thrive for 30 years! I literally just found out about 3 weeks ago, meanwhile I’ve got Misty Edwards on my iPod and am signed up for onething Phoenix. !!! Eeep! I had no idea. I never thought to check my sources. I guess I learned that lesson.

    Oh, to add insult to injury I found a Rick Joyner book on my bookshelf that has been there for the last 10 years. What was I thinking?

    Thank God that He Himself leads us in discernment other wise (I’ve proven) that I’ll fall for anything.

    May God bless us with wisdom and unity. And may He have mercy and save all of us in whatever place we find ourselves, I pray especially for those in IHOP. A friend of a friend just moved there and believes that God is calling people to move there…and wouldn’t you know that is the same thing I read on page 105 of the Gruen report dated 1990!

    To Christ the Glory and Power forever

  133. I am the director of the Atlanta South Metro House of Prayer in Stockbridge Ga. We are a city-wide house of prayer, but we are not an IHOP nor or we associated with IHOP in any official capacity.

    However, I did live in Kansas City for three months in 2002 and visited IHOP. I have several friends who are in leadership positions at IHOP. While I was out in KC, I was investigating the charges that have been occasionally raised against them.

    When I asked about the charges I was shown a copy of the letter where Gruen recanted his charges and I also was shown the newspaper clipping where he published a city-wide apology to the church in Kansas City for the false statements and the division caused by his published allegations.

    I do not have copies of either document, but I did personally hold and read both documents. I have read Gruen’s document and I have read the recanting of the same.

    I am not defending or affirming any of Gruen’s charges. Bickle has publicly admitted to many of the charges and addressed the rest of them.

    Gruen’s grandson was part of IHOP for a while (I undersatnd he isn’t any longer). But he published on his blog the truth of Gruen’s recantations as well as the existence of the documents supporting the same.

    I cannot answer as to why Gruen now recants the recantation. Whether you are a supporter of IHOP or not is not the issue. Integrity is the issue. Setting up straw men and knocking them down proves nothing and accomplishes nothing.

    It is what it is. Gruen made accusations, some appear to have had validity, some did not. He recanted and apologized publicly for the wrong and now for what ever the reason has changed his story.

    But the facts and integrity demand that his current statements do not change the historical facts nor can they be used to solidify any attacks against Bickle or IHOP. Any issues, real or imagined will have to gain support from other sources.

    Blessings,

    Buddy

  134. As an addendum to my previous post – my wife was talking to me and I left out part of what I meant to include.

    In the letter that I read Gruen admitted that he was involved in an immoral situation and was confronted by one of the prophets who said that God had told them about his situation and instructed them to tell Gruen to stop and to repent.

    Gruen stated that he he composed the original document to expose Bickle and Metro was his persona attempt to discredit the prophets in order to protect himself. He apologized for doing so.

    And one other fact. While in Kansas City I personally spoke with Bickle about the situation in a conversation I had with him in IHOP’s coffeeshop. He expressed remorse for the situation, thankfulness for what the original letter had brought forth – needed repentance from Metro’s leadership, and what appeared to be sincere affection for Gruen himself.

    In fact, while looking around in IHOP’s bookstore I noticed that they were selling some of Gruen’s books. I mentioned to Mike how odd that seemed. He responded that he didn’t see it odd at all, after all even though Gruen had attacked Metro, and even though Gruen had fallen into sin, he had publicly repented of both of these and therefore there was no reason not to sell his materials.

    And he added, “And after all, they are great books.” IHOP still sells the books to this day.

    That impressed me then, and it impresses me now.

    Blessings,

    Buddy

  135. jarrod

    Buddy

    “I cannot answer as to why Gruen now recants the recantation. Whether you are a supporter of IHOP or not is not the issue. Integrity is the issue. Setting up straw men and knocking them down proves nothing and accomplishes nothing.”

    We are aware of folks saying these documents exist. You are not the first person to say you have seen them. However one of the folks who said he had read the recantation later admitted to lying. You are also not the first to challenge the integrity of our interview. Yet It will stand until we see real proof that these documents exist. For the record we asked IHOP to produce these documents when we posted the interview. If Gruen lied we want to know. You said “It is what it is. Gruen made accusations, some appear to have had validity, some did not. He recanted and apologized publicly for the wrong and now for what ever the reason has changed his story.” Which one appeared to be valid? Gruen was open about his relationship with the other woman and was adamant that it took place years after the report was sent out. Ernie is dead and can’t speak for himself anymore. We have his final statements about the recantation he says he never recanted what was in the report. You said “Gruen’s grandson was part of IHOP for a while (I understand he isn’t any longer). But he published on his blog the truth of Gruen’s recantations as well as the existence of the documents supporting the same.” I have read Gruens grandsons blog and unless this has happened recently no such thing has been said about Ernie recanting. If I am not wrong I believe Devin actually communicated with his grandson about the issue. I don’t really need to have the report one way or another to postulate why I believe the prophetic to be a counterfeit revival. Nor do I need the report in order to say that many of it’s leaders are false teachers. I can do that on the doctrines and false prophecies alone. I will close with this… as I have said before to others If you will kindly produce the said documents in a verifiable way then I will take this post down and write a public recantation of my own. until then I will stand beside what the old man said himself and this post will remain .

    Hows that for integrity ?

    hope to talk to ya again.

  136. jarrod

    Buddy

    Here for the record is what Gruens grandson posted on his blog

    rnie Gruen

    I thought that you all might be interested in this e-mail i received from my grandfather…

    It has been spread around Kansas City and on the Internet that I sent out a letter saying that I was deceived and that I had retracted the document “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Fellowship).
    [Actually, they have been known by many names in the KC area, switching elders and church names on a regular basis. For a while they were known as Metro Vineyard. Interestingly, John Wimber told me that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickel, because he discovered that I was correct in the “Aberrant” document.]
    I sent out no such letter; I issued no retraction; I did not issue an apology!
    Statements asserting the above are total lies!
    The “Aberrant” document was and is exactly the truth of what happened. It was accumulated from tapes purchased from Bickel’s own ministry. The report is genuine!
    Who originated these new lies, I have no idea?
    Who decided to spread these lies on the Internet and throughout KC, I do not know.
    But it is Mike Bickel’s responsibility to see that these lies are repudiated by him and also publicly at I-Hop–since it purportedly is regularly stated to newcomers to I-Hop. Of course it is to Bickel’s advantage to keep THE LIE going to increase his numbers and growth of his ministry.
    Be sure and read Footnote 2 entirely.
    Pastor Ernie Gruen
    erniegruen@yahoo.com
    Footnote 1:
    Why did Full Faith no longer send out the “Aberrant document”?
    Originally when every thing came to ahead, there was a meeting with the elders of Full Faith with the elders of KC Fellowship. For the sake of unity in the Body of Christ and peace in the city, the elders of Full Faith Church of Love agreed to stop sending out the document. The elders were simply being magnanimous, nothing was retracted. A pastor’s wife, without our knowledge or consent, posted the current copy on the Internet.
    Footnote 2:
    Paul Cain and other prophets discredited by Mike Bickel and Others:
    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel19.html
    Footnote 3:
    The original “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship.
    http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html

    Ernie and Dee Gruen

    Ernie and Dee Gruen

    i read every post put on here. if you wanna talk gnoble@ku.edu

    God Bless you all. Constantly question everything.

    Grant Noble

  137. Pingback: Mike Bickle and the Kansas City Cult Called IHOP « Slaughter of the Sheep

  138. John Anderson

    I was a member of Ernie’s church when he went public with the report early in 1993, and when he announced that he had committed the resolution to a process mediated by John Wimber.
    Later, I was pastored by David Ravenhill. Who was a KCF elder during the controversy.

    What is your standing in this issue? Have you been personally offended by Mike or someone at IHOP?

    Have you followed a Mt 18 process to resove your issues? (Ernie did).

  139. Personally, I love IHOP. The Rooty Tooty Fresh N’ Fruity is always music to my belly.

  140. jarrod

    John
    I have not been personally offended by Mike Bickle or Ihop unless you count the general offense I take to the teachings of this false prophetic movement and it’s practice. I am only interested in showing folks the truth about the prophetic movement , its roots and its constant rewritting of history and covering up of false doctrine. Ernie indeed did follow mt 18 , but thats not the issue of this article it did not stop folks from covering up what really happened. so we are telling it to the church.

  141. Karen Butler

    And thank you, thank you thank you that you did tell it to us. You did us a great service. I have been lurking on this site for some time, just about since the death of Mr. Gruen, and I never did express proper gratitude that you got it on record before the gentleman went to glory. What a sad debacle all this is. It breaks my heart, and it begs for satire.

    Which is just what I did; I updated Lewis’ “The Screwtape Letters” for our sadly and badly marketed brand of Christianity, and I invite you to read it on my blog, http://thenface2face.wordpress.com/, and I cite this post, and your wonderful blog, as one of my sources. I hope you enjoy it, and pray that God would be gracious and use it to open the blind eyes of those still in the wilderness of charismania, so many of them my dear friends.

  142. Kyle Christensen

    Hey you guys! blessings!

    yep, thats the report that has flooded the internet. I have a few points to make.

    1. You say that no-one has provided evidence of his apologetic letter. the point i would like to make is your entire argument is based off of one man and has really no legitiment evidence. one man wrote a report that “he” says were taken from Mike Bickles tapes (Which cannot be proven.) and that “he” says is true (him and his nephew). and you list all this other information (letters, etc) but the only true source you have is one man and his word that it is true. I bless this man, but that does not mean he is telling the truth.

    2) I personally know that (at least IHOP today, i cannot speak for the 80’s) IHOP absolutely does NOT believe the things stated in that report. IHOP does NOT believe they are superior to other God-fearing Christians. IHOP stands firmly against all of that report in how they conduct themselves, how they teach, how the worship, etc.

    3) even if there is a chance that any of the things that you say about IHOP were true, It is not true anymore in the least bit. You should judge the tree by its fruit, and it is raising up humble God-fearing men and women dedicated to seeking the creators face. all of your “evidence” is from the 80’s, what is IHOP doing now? what evidence is there today? (and why are you searching for evidence so desperately? is it really for good reasons, or because you’re church split and you blame IHOP for it?) i’m not being mean, i’m trying to be honest.

    4) Prophecy is absolutely biblical. in fact, the bible in it’s existence is %100 prophetic! and there is so much prophecy in the bible that has not come to pass yet that to think that God no longer speaking in this fashion is unbiblical in itself! here’s some things to consider… Jesus is coming back, and He clearly wants us to be ready for it. A major prophecy Jesus made from His own lips is tied to the great commission: Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole inhabited earth for a testimony to all the nations, AND THEN the end will come.” All of the major missionary networks (including YWAM and Campus Crusade for Christ) got together a few months back and concluded with confidence that, to the best of their understanding, the great commission will be completed within the next 5-10 years.

    and that is just one of the many signs lined out in scripture of the end-time generation that we see happening in our lifetime! to ignore this, or to not even check it out for yourself, would be unwise!

    and if we are in the last generation, is it so far fetched to believe that prophetic activity might begin to increase as well? considering it’s prophesied in the bible that “God will pour out His Spirit on ALL flesh.” and this has not yet come to pass. (Pentecost was not ALL flesh)

    don’t think that just because previous generations have thought that they might be the last generation, is a good reason to think that it’s far off. it is not. and the end-time generation and the return of our King Jesus to THIS Earth is %100 biblical.

    The Great commission is almost fulfilled, these are exciting times we live in.

    God Bless! (current student of IHOPU)

  143. Kyle Christensen

    one last thing. considering how (forgive me, I have to use his word) horribly some of your blog entries have been assembled, such as the one i’ve been posting on the most about the “Prophesying cameras” (which not only takes Allens words completely out of context, but out-right manipulates his words so that they say something that He never actually said) it is hard for me to take anything, including you “evidence”, very seriously. if there was a more consistent and honorable flow through all of your postings (honorable as in not taking things out of context, honoring the original meaning, and i’m sure you know what that means since you guys are all about correct doctrine) it would have made for a better case. even then, the lack of “real” evidence is still substantial. remember, it’s not me who is attacking you, it is you who are deliberately attacking a christian organization that you yourselves have not attended in any way (if i’m wrong, please correct me) God Bless!

  144. jarrod

    You are wrong so here comes the correction . First understand that the grey coats Has more than one author. I did not write the IHOP U and don’t really care what they call it. Second both Nat and I were practicing card carrying members of the Charismatic prophetic scene for several years of our young adult life. It seems odd to me that you would come on so strong only to back out when you see there is actual work to be done. Read the Gruen report kid. then the interview. I am not interested in taking Allen Hood out of context. quite frankly Allen is seldom on my radar ,If you wanna believe in media annointings more power to you. I think it’s bogus but whatever. I am dealing with the real history behind The third wave Historical facts. thats what counts. IHOP has changed its history more than once and will continue to do so. It does not really affect me anymore , but it will certainly affect you. As far as honor goes the Gruen report and interview stand up against criticism. I would venture to say the same for Julie’s story as well as the work just done on IHOP’s affirmation and denial page. feel free to keep engaging but spare me the oh you guys aren’t honorable cop outs. it gets boring. I hate being bored. Like I said I will hold you to your word . you said you will defened your ministry IHOP. so lets begin.

    Is it indeed true that Bob jones and paul cain were great influences in Mike Bickles life ?

    Did Mike Bickle say that the only person he was comfotable with calling a prophet was Paul Cain ?

    Do you know who Paul Cain even is ?

    How much do you know about the Kansass city prophets ?

    Has IHOP removed the prophecies concerning Mike Bickles quadrapalygic brother ?

    Did the prophecies in some say it thundered actually come true or were they embelished .

    these are just a few things you should be ready to answer oh IHOP defender.

    And remember you said you would defend.

  145. jarrod

    you said “1. You say that no-one has provided evidence of his apologetic letter. the point i would like to make is your entire argument is based off of one man and has really no legitiment evidence. one man wrote a report that “he” says were taken from Mike Bickles tapes (Which cannot be proven.) and that “he” says is true (him and his nephew). and you list all this other information (letters, etc) but the only true source you have is one man and his word that it is true. I bless this man, but that does not mean he is telling the truth.” No one questions whether or not the tapes existed nor whether or notGruens report was acurate and sorry there are more witnesses than just Gruen. I believe cheaperdozen was actually a part of kcf back then. And the Kansas City prophets were pretty darn famous back in the day. Also you should not bless liars if Gruen lied fine but that is unlikely . Gruen backed off when Wimber Got involved. learn your history kid. I would not post just some old He said she said crap. Its too important. don’t think I take this lightly I know that If The third wave movement is of God I am on the wrong side of the stick. Yet I am convinced by the evidence and the poor doctrine that My side of the stick is just fine.

  146. jarrod

    Kyle you said “3) even if there is a chance that any of the things that you say about IHOP were true, It is not true anymore in the least bit. You should judge the tree by its fruit, and it is raising up humble God-fearing men and women dedicated to seeking the creators face. all of your “evidence” is from the 80’s, what is IHOP doing now? what evidence is there today? (and why are you searching for evidence so desperately? is it really for good reasons, or because you’re church split and you blame IHOP for it?) i’m not being mean, i’m trying to be honest.” first off the tree has been around a lot longer than your experience of it. Second I have not met a whole lot of humble folk coming out of IHOP. I have met alot of disillusioned and elitist we have it right and the rest of the church is so pitiful kind of folk but not the humble kind. sorry but even you first response came off like that. last my reasons are not cause I’m all mad at IHOP for my church split. IHOP had nothing to do with what happened to my old church. My old pastor who went to IHOP after he split the church had everything to do with it. I would tell you his name but he is trying to get on staff at IHOP and I would not want to embarrass him. I don’t blame IHOP for anything. I think the entire third wave prophetic movement is bad news plain and simple. IHOP is just one branch of that tree which indeed has born some crazy fruit. my motive is simple. I want to warn those who will listen. period. I mean heck this isn’t even my day job. In conclusion to your part 4. YWAM and campus are not the only folks who know about the 1040 window but 10 to 15 years is a bit optimistic. Peter said the prophecy of joel was fulfilled at Pentecost . maybe you know better than him . I got no problem with an increase in true prophetic utterance. I got a major problem with what you kids call prophecy. I mean you guys are less accurate than the psychic hot-line for cryin out loud. even your elder prophets are only right 62% of the time. I have seen better readings on Oprah. Real prophets are right all the time. when God really speaks He means it. Thats what His word tells us. You guys aren’t even allowed to rebuke or direct with prophecy because your teachers know you will just drop the ball and hurt folks. So they regulate you to encouraging words only. sorry but if Jimmy has a problem with porn He probably doesn’t need to hear that Jesus wants him for a sun beam.

  147. Kyle Christensen

    “It seems odd to me that you would come on so strong only to back out when you see there is actual work to be done. Read the Gruen report kid. then the interview.”

    – I did kid. odd to me that someone who is so focused on true doctrine has forgotten the primary call in scripture. love. anyways, I read through your responses and find that my previous statement still stands, you not only did not answer any of the questions i posed, but simply stated that your “facts” stand up against criticism, when they don’t.

    “I am not interested in taking Allen Hood out of context. quite frankly Allen is seldom on my radar ,If you wanna believe in media annointings more power to you. I think it’s bogus but whatever. I am dealing with the real history behind The third wave Historical facts. thats what counts. IHOP has changed its history more than once and will continue to do so. It does not really affect me anymore , but it will certainly affect you.

    – You have no real proof of this. your historical facts are not true reliable sources. no matter how many ways you say “historical facts” or “proof”, it still doesn’t change the extreme lack thereof. You have a pastor with a report he wrote, I could bring up a hundred pastors on the other side of the equation.

    “As far as honor goes the Gruen report and interview stand up against criticism. I would venture to say the same for Julie’s story as well as the work just done on IHOP’s affirmation and denial page. feel free to keep engaging but spare me the oh you guys aren’t honorable cop outs. it gets boring. I hate being bored. Like I said I will hold you to your word . you said you will defened your ministry IHOP. so lets begin.

    – I’m sorry, but it’s not your boredom that i’m worried about. it’s FACT that YOU (or one of the grey coats) outright lie on your posts by completely mis-representing the organization in order to achieve a desired result, which is slander and contempt against the organization. Why hold anything to say with any real weight if his is the way you operate?

    you simply slide your way around my statements (which I told you in my post, i knew would happen, as well as I knew my efforts would most likely be in vein) by attacking me, telling me how bored and uneducated I am on the subject, while I offer no such personal jabs at you at all and try to stick on the subject.

    I bless you, but I am not going to be posting anymore on this site. if you are going to ignore what I say and continue to jab at someones character that you have never met, i don’t see our conversations being beneficial.

    You fail to answer my questions, I fail to answer yours. God bless

  148. Kyle Christensen

    “Peter said the prophecy of joel was fulfilled at Pentecost.”

    Really? what scripture did you get this from? just curious 🙂

  149. jarrod

    The book of acts. There is this book called the bible. It’s well it’s pretty awesome , and in it this guy says that by a testimony of 2 or more witnesses a matter is proved. We have more than 2 or more witnesses and I sincerely doubt you read all 200 odd pages of the Gruen document. Sad fact is you can’t bring me 100 pastors to refute Gruens report don’t you get it ? The report started circulating In K.C. John Wimber had to step in to help the KC prophets and they admitted to some of the stuff in the report. again I say learn your history. Look you don’t wanna do this thats fine but would you mind leaving you “Your not being loving and it’s all slander crap at the door. I mean really it’s is so tired. I am not called to always seem nice. However I was trying to be pleasent you read the statement the way you wanted to Kid.Eyewitness accounts are unreliable. Weather reports and documentation concerning prophecies not coming to pass are unreliable. Allen Hood is taken out of context (wich I doubt) but like I said didn’t write the post. All we wanna do is slander. Sadly friend I have heard it all before from other young kids who feel like we are attacking what God is doing. Fine , but even if My buddy took Hood out of context He did not and does not outright lie as you say. you may not like what we have nor agree with the entire rest of human society on what constitutes actual eye witness testimony thats just sad , but its your prerogative. I mean thats how court rooms and well I mean courtrooms and the news and well pretty much anything gets established is by testimony that is backed up by historical fact. but hey maybe you got a new way to do it.

  150. TimH

    Kyle,

    I would like to draw your attention to a site here http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-metro1.htm
    that is a personal account of the early days of how IHOP began.

    Granted that this is an account from the old days and beginnings but I want to ask you is this, “If the foundation of what has been started is shaking at best and possibly built on heretical teaching at the worst, what makes the ministry better today if it is still based on the same prophetic words and original teachings that seem to be un or extra- biblical?

    I fear that this supposed “defense” of IHOP is going to be nothing more than a “slug fest” at defending a ministry with no real substance. AS usual attack the contents of historical testamony of those who were there, call them liers, they can’t be trusted, how do you know they are telling the truth, blah, blah, blah. Same ol’ defense tactics we have read in the past. “Give me some meat to chew” so I can spit out the bones!!!

  151. Bill Fawcett

    Kyle,

    Having actually been alive – and a charismatic – during the days of the Ernie Gruen report, perhaps I can shed a little light on this topic. I have an immense collection of magazine articles on this topic from those days.

    However, before providing some information – and I’m willing to dig a little – what EXACTLY are you disputing?

    I would think if the man who supposedly wrote a city-wide apology was willing to state in writing that he never wrote such an apology that this would be enough.

    I would also think that if no one has been able to come up with a copy of this alleged city-wide apology, that wuld also suffice.

    Are you saying that there is indeed a city-wide apology and you have seen it? Because I would really like to have a copy.

    I really could do much to address the current problems at IHOP, and that would probably be a much more profitable use of our time, but you seem quite knowledgable about Gruen’s apology, so maybe you can tell us more about that. Then we can move on.

    I think that many would just like to keep claiming that Gruen recanted, and nothing in the report was valid as a smokescrenn- and I’m calling you bluff.

    Since you have so much knowledge about all-things-IHOP, perhaps you can ask your leaders about the deleted portions of the “Blueprint Prophecy.” Under what scriptural basis would God give a prophecy to the church – and as you know we must judge prophecy – and tell someone to keep it secret? Is it that bad?

    In all fairness, a few theories have been advanced. Some would say that his memo contained with the abberent practices booklet constitues this apology. Looking at that memo, it appears he was simply correcting some miss-statements contained in the tape of a sermon that had wide distribution.

    In the July/August 1990 edition of “Ministries Today” Jamie Buckingham writes of the joint statement issued after the memorial day meeting. Some might construe this as his city-wide letter, but that was more than city-wide, and Gruen was only a co-author.

  152. Bill Fawcett

    (shifted papargraphs around for clarity)

    Kyle,

    Having actually been alive – and a charismatic – during the days of the Ernie Gruen report, perhaps I can shed a little light on this topic. I have an immense collection of magazine articles on this topic from those days.

    However, before providing some information – and I’m willing to dig a little – what EXACTLY are you disputing?

    I would think if the man who supposedly wrote a city-wide apology was willing to state in writing that he never wrote such an apology that this would be enough.

    I would also think that if no one has been able to come up with a copy of this alleged city-wide apology, that would also suffice.

    Are you saying that there is indeed a city-wide apology and you have seen it? Because I would really like to have a copy.

    In all fairness, a few theories have been advanced. Some would say that his memo contained with the abberent practices booklet constitues this apology. Looking at that memo, it appears he was simply correcting some miss-statements contained in the tape of a sermon that had wide distribution.

    In the July/August 1990 edition of “Ministries Today” Jamie Buckingham writes of the joint statement issued after the memorial day meeting. Some might construe this as his city-wide letter, but that was more than city-wide, and Gruen was only a co-author.

    I really could do much to address the current problems at IHOP, and that would probably be a much more profitable use of our time, but you seem quite knowledgable about Gruen’s apology, so maybe you can tell us more about that. Then we can move on.

    I think that many would just like to keep claiming that Gruen recanted, and nothing in the report was valid as a smokescrenn- and I’m calling your bluff.

    Since you have so much knowledge about all-things-IHOP, perhaps you can ask your leaders about the deleted portions of the “Blueprint Prophecy.” Under what scriptural basis would God give a prophecy to the church – and as you know we must judge prophecy – and tell someone to keep it secret? Is it that bad?

    I’d be delighted to discuss this with you.

    -Bill

  153. Kyle Christensen

    I believe the problem is not IHOP, but the prophetic movement in general, right? from looking deeper into your sight this is the feel I get, which is fine with me, i’m just trying to get down to the grit of it.

    first off, Read that part in Acts one more time. Peter never says that the prophecy was fulfilled, He says:
    “But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
    17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
    That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
    Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    Your young men shall see visions,
    Your old men shall dream dreams.
    18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
    I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
    And they shall prophesy.
    19 I will show wonders in heaven above
    And signs in the earth beneath:
    Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
    And the moon into blood,
    Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
    21 And it shall come to pass
    That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
    Shall be saved.’[b]

    First of all, it is evident that this prophecy has not yet come to pass (the sun turning to darkness and the moon into blood, etc) So Peter is not saying “This is the fulfillment of this prophecy”, but in fact saying “This is what Joel spoke of, and this is the BEGINNING of these prophecies coming to pass.”

    When I was referring to me being a “defender” of IHOP, I was not referring to other ministries that were in the 80’s. I do not know much about these events. if you are interested in providing practices that IHOP engages in currently that are against the bible, I would happily engage in such conversation. If IHOP is engaging in biblically sound doctrine and benefiting the Church today, even if some of there past has questions that can’t seem to be answered by either party, then why are we still clinging on to something that occurred over 20 years ago that cannot even be proven? what is happening today? what does the ministry of IHOP represent today?

    God bless!

  154. Kyle,

    Its obvious that you don’t have a copy of, nor have you ever seen the fictional Gruen apology.

    Leaving aside the issue of poor foundations, or the need to dig up the roots as they like to say in the propehtic, let’s talk about something current.

    Under what scriptural basis would God give a prophecy to the church – and as you know we must judge prophecy – and tell someone to keep it secret?

    I’m referring to Mike Bickle’s unwillingness to place the entire “Blueprint Prophecy” on the table.

  155. Kyle,

    I wrote the expose on IHOPU. I’ve dialogued with one of the staff members concerning its validity. It is not slanderous. Your school is not a university and the quotes are direct and accurate. Especially the Allen Hood one. The fact that you don’t enjoy the editorial nature of the blog post does not mean that its point is invalid. I’m sure your institution is training you to be a fine end-times warrior, but, I am not being prideful or angry by drawing attention to the fact that it will not earn you a diploma. In fact the staff at IHOP (according to quotes from the IHOPU trailer) seem to think that diploma’s are unspiritual or less than important. That is fine. However, I wonder if they will change their position if they ever do gain accreditation…seeing as how a reliable source has recently informed me that they are seeking it.

  156. Kyle, here is some rather current information regarding one intern’s experience. She was an intern around 4 years ago. I happen to know her, personally. Not that that matters, but, I am the “Julie” of “Julie’s story” and she and I have compared notes regarding the continuity of teaching and practice at IHOP from the 80’s, up until four years ago on a regular basis. Anyway, I encourage you to read her accounts.

    Also, just for the record. When I left KCF (early IHOP), it was with a broken heart. I loved my body of believers as much as you love yours today. My eyes were opened, not because of all the abherrent teachings and practices – but because they didn’t preach the gospel. Mike did not preach it then, and I wonder if he preaches it today. Once you understand the gospel, the error is obvious.

    I hope you will give her site a thorough going over as she was an insider. Much like you are today.

  157. Kyle Christensen

    “Its obvious that you don’t have a copy of, nor have you ever seen the fictional Gruen apology.
    Leaving aside the issue of poor foundations, or the need to dig up the roots as they like to say in the propehtic, let’s talk about something current.”

    – I know that the surfacing of this report did have positive benefits to IHOP. Things that needed to change were changed, and things that didn’t need to be changed were not changed. IHOP is not perfect, and is continually striving to better itself as is, i hope, every christian organization.

    “Under what scriptural basis would God give a prophecy to the church – and as you know we must judge prophecy – and tell someone to keep it secret?”

    – I’d like to point out that God gave Mickle Bickle a prophecy concerning the future of his ministry, and it is at his discretion whether or not he makes it public information. this is not abnormal.

    “I’m referring to Mike Bickle’s unwillingness to place the entire “Blueprint Prophecy” on the table.”

    – If Mike doesn’t want to share a prophecy that God gave Him concerning his ministry, that is his right to do so. He is using his own discretion, he didn’t have to share any of it. If I had a dream with an outline of my own ministry, would I be forced to share that with anyone?

    “I wrote the expose on IHOPU. I’ve dialogued with one of the staff members concerning its validity. It is not slanderous.”

    – I posted on that link why exactly it is. feel free to read what I said.

    “Your school is not a university and the quotes are direct and accurate. Especially the Allen Hood one. The fact that you don’t enjoy the editorial nature of the blog post does not mean that its point is invalid.”

    – when the “editorial nature” of the blog leads people to believe that someone said something they never said, thats what i have a problem with. and the point is completely invalid. people going to that school know exactly what they are paying for. there are tons of non-accredited bible school around the world. if you want to go to an accredited one, spend more money and go! 🙂 no one is stopping you, and no one is saying one way is better than another. that is completely up to the student to decide for themselves.

    “I’m sure your institution is training you to be a fine end-times warrior, but, I am not being prideful or angry by drawing attention to the fact that it will not earn you a diploma. In fact the staff at IHOP (according to quotes from the IHOPU trailer) seem to think that diploma’s are unspiritual or less than important.”

    – according to the quotes from the IHOPU trailer? that is complete bogus. go watch it again, you will find nothing that even hints at IHOP believing diplomas are “unspiritual or less important”. this is a complete lie.

    “That is fine. However, I wonder if they will change their position if they ever do gain accreditation…seeing as how a reliable source has recently informed me that they are seeking it.”

    – IHOP has announced it’s intentions to be accredited next year, and just so you know, they are already up-to-par THIS year with the material that they teach to be accredited. not only that, but next year when they do become accredited, this current year will be counted.

    “Also, just for the record. When I left KCF (early IHOP), it was with a broken heart. I loved my body of believers as much as you love yours today. My eyes were opened, not because of all the abherrent teachings and practices – but because they didn’t preach the gospel. Mike did not preach it then, and I wonder if he preaches it today. Once you understand the gospel, the error is obvious.”

    – KCF broke up because of the Gruen report (not that that was necessarily a bad thing) it brought to light a lot of things (even though much of the report was false) there was some things that needed to change, and there were some things that were off. after the dust had settled, the changes that DID need to be made were changed effectively. everybody learned through the process. and I know from first-hand experience over the past year that IHOP preaches doctrinal truth, and does not stand on anything that is not supported by scripture. I’m sorry that you went through everything you went through Julie. i’ve been through a church split myself. the unfortunate thing is that most of the Gruen report was lies, so that the truth that was mixed in made things seem MUCH worse than they really were. there might have been some vibes of elitism way back in the 80’s… but this is long gone. when was the last time you were at IHOP?

  158. Kyle Christensen

    want to know if Mike is biblical? check out his site for yourself:

    http://mikebickle.org/

    God Bless!

  159. Kyle,
    I don’t remember KCF breaking up because of the Gruen Report. As a matter of fact, it appeared that few people at the congregation were affected by the report at all. And, when I read the report, back in the day, I remember nodding my head in agreement, knowing it to be true, having first hand knowledge of the information contained in the document. I could actually remember many of the wrong prophecies and teachings contained in the critique because I was there when they were given/taught. I am curious to learn which entries you know in Ernie’s document have been proven false.

    I believe that KCF was simply absorbed, prophets and all, into the Vineyard. No split occurred. John Wimber was given the task of cleaning up the mess. Now, back in the 90’s when Mike wanted to bring much of the prophetic back, and, also his endorsing of Toronto/Brownsville, many Vineyards left the Vineyard association, including Metro Vineyard.

    My broken heart stemmed from the sorrow I felt having the pastor I loved, the prophets I loved, the people I loved, NOT understand the gospel. If they understood the gospel, they would stop their extreme religious human effort for God to PLEASE give them what He already gave them via the cross. That broke my heart.

    My heart was secondarily broken because of the falseness of the message being held to by Mike, et al., and subsequently being taught to earnest people, full of desire to see God move. To this day, I am not bitter. Not at all. I am grieved.

    As to when I last went to IHOP. It was around 9/12, of 2001. I was desperate to pray and wanted to be with people who were also praying. They were still at the old building on Grandview road. Nothing stands out in my mind, except, when parusing their literature in the lobby, I was looking for the mention of the cross of Jesus Christ, or his shed blood – something that preached the risen Christ and what that means for us, today. Couldn’t find anything and I went away, grieved again.

    I’m glad you have stopped by regularly to read the opinions and research given. I believe the men and women on this site share my grief. It is truly a grievous hour. Please pray, with an open heart. The problem with being deceived is, well, your deceived. It just isn’t obvious to you, until it is.

  160. Kyle Christensen

    Bless you cheaperdozen, i enjoy hearing you’re side of the story. i must admit i’m am shocked at what I read, about not hearing anything about the risen Lord. for since I have been here that has been one of the things that has most impressed me with IHOP is it’s complete central focus on Jesus in everything! in fact, I don’t think i’ve ever heard a sermon that didn’t end without it directing our focus to Jesus. I would urge you to go to the Mike Bickle site and look through some of his notes or videos, I would be shocked if you did not run into heavy Biblical Jesus in any of His notes.
    God Bless!

  161. IWTT

    unfortunate thing is that most of the Gruen report was lies,…

    So what you are saying is that all of those out there who were there and who coroborate the report are liers as well?

  162. Kyle,

    Now that you can’t come up with a shred of evidence evidence that Gruen issued a city-wide apology -recanting his report – even though just a day or two ago you were insisting that he did, you now have to resort to slandering a dead man? That’s really sick.

    But go ahead- make your case. Tell the boys and girls specifically what the lies were. Cite page numbers to make it easy for us all. And I’m assuming you have first hand knowledge.

    You are making statements that Mike Bickle wouldn’t even make.

    And by the way, KCF did not break up because of the Gruen report. Run over to the IHOP bookstore and pick up a copy of “Some Said it Thundered.” Get our facts straight. Where are you learning this stuff?

  163. “The unfortunate thing is that most of the Gruen report was lies.”

    Kyle – as I said, you are saying things Mike Bickle would not say.

    Bickle says the report was by God’s design. Does God use lies to accomplish his will?

    Here’s an excerpt from in interview with Mike Bickle:

    “Were Ernie Gruen’s charges motivated by the devil, or by God? Is the accuser of the brethern at work in this situation, or the Sprit of truth?

    I decided to ask Mike Bickel that question. “I absolutely believe that this was sovereign,” says Bickle. Besides admitting that God is using Gruen’s charges to expose “pride, impatience, and defensiveness” in his own spirit, Bickle outlined major areas the Lord is adjusting at KCF.”

    Resolving the Kansas City Prophecy Controversy
    Lee Grady
    Ministries Today September/October 1990

  164. Kyle Christensen

    “Now that you can’t come up with a shred of evidence evidence that Gruen issued a city-wide apology -recanting his report – even though just a day or two ago you were insisting that he did, you now have to resort to slandering a dead man? That’s really sick.”

    – I would ask you to go back and read my statement. I never, not once, insisted that he wrote a letter apologizing. and I have said that lessons were learned back then, and things that needed to be changed were changed. E. Gruen made it his “ministry” to expose KCF. even though there was truth in some of what he said, it was heavily bias. again, show me were IHOP is today. you still have failed in bringing up the issues that make IHOP, in your eyes, practicing heresy in the here and now.

    And by the way, KCF did not break up because of the Gruen report. Run over to the IHOP bookstore and pick up a copy of “Some Said it Thundered.” Get our facts straight. Where are you learning this stuff?

    – I meant that the report was a big part of what happened to KCF. again, i’m not saying that the report was necessarily bad, it made people really think, and realize that they did need to change things. those changes were made. so again, what is IHOP today?”

    Bickle says the report was by God’s design. Does God use lies to accomplish his will?

    Here’s an excerpt from in interview with Mike Bickle:

    “Were Ernie Gruen’s charges motivated by the devil, or by God? Is the accuser of the brethern at work in this situation, or the Sprit of truth?

    “I decided to ask Mike Bickel that question. “I absolutely believe that this was sovereign,” says Bickle. Besides admitting that God is using Gruen’s charges to expose “pride, impatience, and defensiveness” in his own spirit, Bickle outlined major areas the Lord is adjusting at KCF.”

    – this is all i was trying to say. of coarse i believe it was a part of Gods plan, look at the book of Job.

  165. Kyle,

    Your story is changing a bit too much. Too much, in fact, for me to have a meaningful discussion with you.

    Equating Brother Ernie with Satan (reference to the book of Job) is a bit over the top. Again, you are saying things that Mike would not say.

    Anyhow, I’ll be discussing the top secret blueprint plan sometime soon over on the BeyondGrace blog. You might find that interesting. No where does the bible suggest that edited versions of prophecies should be made public for the biblical purpose of judging. No where. Unless, of course, the prophecy is of “private interpetation.”

    -Bill

  166. annunk

    Kyle,
    You said: first off, Read that part in Acts one more time. Peter never says that the prophecy was fulfilled, He says:
    “But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel..”etc. etc.

    That prophecy has been and is being fulfilled since the resurrection of Christ Jesus. But nowhere Kyle, nowhere in that prophecy does God note the importance of occult/mysticism – i.e. Contemplative prayer. (Actually, Mike Bickle himself has said that there is no place in the Bible where Contemplative prayer is even mentioned.)

    Jesus does, however, tell us of a great falling away. Something so subtle that even some Christians will be deceived. That if it were possible, it would deceive even the very elect.

    Kyle, like others I know at IHOP, I don’t want to see you buying into occult and one day dying – to discover you’ve been serving a pseudo-christ. That would be a case of your ‘putting your hand to the plow and turning back’ – you would have no place in God’s kingdom. You cannot worship Satan contemplatively and expect the Lord to welcome you into His presence.

    Don’t reply back to this, Kyle. Please don’t.

    Instead, would you please consider, that maybe, just maybe these people on here are right. That it’s possible that you, Kyle, are believing a lie. That Mike Bickle/Allen Hood are themselves believing a lie and are getting others to believe it with them.

    Final thought: Jesus warned us: Satan would be excellent in his deception. He would come disguised as an angel of the light.

    I guarantee you this: When we each stand before the Lord, no one – absolutely no one will be getting a ‘pass’ saying, “But I didn’t know! I thought I was following you!”

  167. Christian from Columbus

    I have read a good bit of Ernie Gruen’s report. I was impressed with the amount of documentation, and the support of other area churches. For churches to stand together and oppose false doctrine in another church is very difficult and virtually unheard of. That speaks to the serious nature of what was contained in the report.

    I am very interested in IHOP because they appear in the background of a local story–which has become fodder for a number of bigots across the country and the globe. The story of Rifqa Bary since the very beginning has had pieces that fit together poorly. While there are segments who have been pushing a rabid anti-Muslim narrative in connection with the story, there have been many questionable segments on the Christian side of the story. Not only was it initially incredible to me that an upstanding Pastor would bring a that was suspected of being abused across state lines and hide her from authorities, but from the inception, the presence of any Christian congregation in Columbus claiming Rifqa has been striking. As the case has progressed, there have been some suggestions of possible congregations–but apparently the most recent and most intense involvement was with a campus House of Prayer. Through this group she met Brian Williams, who is currently serving an internship at IHOP. Apparently a group travelled from Kansas City to pray with Rifqa prior to one of the Florida Court hearings. I understand that Lou Engle is now a part of IHOP, and Rifqa was recorded praying with/for Engle via a surreptitious conference call while she was in Florida.

    I personally am not only concerned with the irresponsible and unethical behavior of a number of pastors involved in this case–but I fully understand why Rifqa’s parents are very frightened by these connections. I am a life-long Christian and I find them to be frightening. I am old enough to have seen a number of “movements” come and go and lost one friend into the Moonies long ago. At one time the word of caution to students was not to accept a free vegetarian lunch from anyone on campus. Apparently it’s being done a bit differently these days–in 24/7 “prayer rooms.” I am also old enough to have encountered Campus Crusade with their religion lite to rock and roll.

    As Christians, we don’t like to challenge one another. It is disturbing that we might have to warn our youth that even the church itself is vulnerable to falsehood and the infection of evil. I have read both the earnest voices of believers, and those who have left. I would suggest that any group of believers who cannot stand up to the light of scrutiny from other believers–who hold unto themselves–because others just don’t understand–have good reason to take a step back and contemplate exactly what it is that they are doing, and why.

  168. Jim McDonald

    I am surprised this discussion about Bickle and Gruen is still on-going years after the fact, esp. since Ernie Gruen died in 2009.

    It’s obvious to me that after Gruen exposed the KC Prophets ordeal, Satan went after the most important thing in Gruen’s life….his family. His whole life collapsed, marriage, ministry, ect. Things were restored somewhat, but a great man of God was taken down by the great deceiver.

    Satan knows his time is short, so he is working overtime to de-rail the Church, even the elect.

  169. Annunk

    I know that TruthSpeaker has been in touch with a man who recently s/w Ernie Gruen’s wife, who told him that after Ernie had spoken up, it was as though hell itself had been unleashed on them.

    http://truthspeaker.wordpress.com/2008/08/17/is-ihop-a-cult/

    You’re absolutely right. Satan IS doing all he can to deceive as many believers as he can. What I find amazing is that they’re not only ‘believing’ the lies, (in reference to IHOP) but they’re defending their beliefs in a very hateful way – much like Muslims defend their faith!

    It is as though reading the preamble to Joel’s Army and expecting the battles to become a little bit more real than..’surreal’..

  170. Thomas

    Ernie did issue an apology. He also fell into adultery after the famous report was issued. Mike graciously offered his help and support to Ernie in the midst of his stumble.

  171. jarrod

    Yes , yes heard it all before. Can you prove this ? Can you prove that Gruen apologized ? Since he said in our interview that he did not retract or recant what was in his document ? Dont just tell us stuff we have heard a million times by now. bring proof. I will tell you as I have told the others before you. Show me don’t tell me.

  172. E

    FWIW, I called Ernie several years ago to confirm with him a statement in one of Don Basham’s books A Handbook on Tongues, Interpretation and Prophecy re: Ernie’s glossolalia being a form of Cherokee(?), IIRC, and shared a little about our having lived in Kansas City, and decided to ask him about his current feelings about Metro Christian Fellowship. He said something to the effect that he had no problems with MCF – Floyd McClung was now (i.e., at that time) the pastor, and Ernie said he respected him. I didn’t ask Ernie about Mike Bickle or whether he still affirmed all that he wrote in his lengthy paper or his sermon “Do We Keep Smiling And Say Nothing?”

  173. leonardo

    I attended George Westlake’s Jr.s Church in Kansas City during this controversy, and also have Ernie Gruen’s original report on KC Fellowship. George Westlake endorsed Ernie’s report (see report and his personal letter). Dr. Westlake is a man of integrity, and is known throughout the Kansas City area as such. A very good friend of mine who is involved in church work and ministry (not a member of Westlake’s church or associated with him at all) once stated to me that your pastor is “know for his integrity.” Dr. Westlake in his letter called Bickle’s church a “cult” as I recall. For a man of Dr. Westlake’s calibur and education to make such a statement means something. I attended his church for several years (I am not a personal friend). Dr. Westlake rarely used that term or referred to individuals by name. He made an exception for Mike Bickle.
    I am so sad that Charismatics and Pentecostals are so gullible and will believe just about anything (and anyone) fantastic. So very sad. I think it is interesting to note that the bulk of his following are young and inexperienced.

  174. amy c

    Here is an interesting piece of information.

    Hal Linhardt was a (founding?) pastor at FFCOL. He ministered under Ernie’s leadership for many, many years, and is now a pastor at IHOP.

    Maybe you can get some feed-back from him.

  175. JD

    Dis Jesus tell us to follow the false parctices of I hop Jhop? Give me a break Mike Bickle and Lou Engle false prophets with no biblical truat to stand on It would be nice if there followers would learn to discern and test as we are all taught to do but the bible is just not in the cards To much TRUTH to handle at over 4 grand for an internship at I hop I d say Im not buying what your selling are you?

    As I am so concerned for the people of God and their avoiding error, I wish to illuminate three movements within the CM: IHOP (The International House of Prayer), Theophostic Prayer, and manifestations of gold dust and gold fillings in teeth during meetings of believers.

    IHOP or International House of Prayer (formerly known as Harp & Bowl) promotes 24/7/365 prayer meetings and continual worship via music . Clearly, continual prayer and worship isn’t inherently suspect. (However, while this may be a noble ideal, the New Testament contains no command for this particular style of continual worship.)

    But as one delves deeper into IHOP, cracks begin to appear. The idea behind its genesis as Harp & Bowl is to recreate the OT model of David’s Tabernacle as illustrated in Amos 9:8-15 and Acts 15:16-17 (in context). Two flags immediately come into play—Flag #1 and #4. In the case of #1, IHOP’s philosophy misinterprets and misapplies both passages. The initial coming of Christ fulfilled and completed the Amos passage. The Acts passage, in context, is a promise to the Gentiles, again already fulfilled by Christ coming and opening the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles. In the case of Flag #4, we find the classic trap of trying to create a New Testament practice from an Old Testament practice. Why should the Church attempt to restore David’s Tabernacle when Christ already did it? In addition, IHOP’s call for “restoration” invokes flag #5. Also, while concerts of prayer and worship have been part of the historic Church, none have rested on a basis such as IHOP’s. Therefore, Flag #3 may also come into play. And lastly, the sketchy history of the origin of IHOP (from what I was able to find online) claims it began as a revelation to a small group of people, so Flag #2 may apply.

    So in the case of the International House of Prayer, the underpinnings of the movement rest on grounds that certainly fail three flags (and possibly a fourth and fifth). We must also consider that worship consists of more than simply music and singing. While music may enhance worship, all worship isn’t based on it. Misapplying the texts leads to this mistake. In the end, while a noble cause, the genesis of IHOP rests on faulty exegesis and suspect revelation. This could lead to more egregious errors down the road.

    Theophostic Counseling/Prayer is another “new” practice increasingly seen in the CM. An updated version of Agnes Sanford’s “healing light” theories, Theophostic attempts to help people who have become enmeshed in lies rooted in past brokenness and painful memories. By bringing the light of Jesus to these areas of hurt, healing occurs.

    Again, on the surface this seems harmless enough, but Theophostic garners many flags when explored more thoroughly. Ed Smith, the formulator of the practice claims to have received Theophostic from God after he found his own counseling practices inadequate—Flag #2 . A quick overview of the methods used to heal people via Theophostic shows no previous historical practice of it in the Church—Flag #3, a source of pride for Smith. Truth is, Theophostic owes its existence to the psychological practice of recovering and healing memories, now abandoned by secular practitioners because of abuses of the technique and the recovering of illusory memories—the now classic False Memory Syndrome. This brings up Flag #6.

    No record in the Bible shows the apostles or the early Church using such an approach, and the practice of Theophostic violates the Bible’s own words concerning wholeness in Jesus. (An excellent PDF on the errors of Theophostic’s concepts and methodology with regards to sound biblical doctrine can be found here.) Add Flag #1. Since Theophostic is a relatively new practice, its long-term results are difficult to follow, too. Given the damage perpetrated by professional psychology practitioners spawning False Memory Syndrome in patients, will Theophostic’s laymen practitioners cause even more trauma? Only time will tell, but a quick search of the Web shows horror stories starting to surface. Consider Flag #7 a possibility.

    Theophostic, therefore, rates five flags—a serious indicator of problems that should lead us to abandon its practice.

    Lastly, a number of charismatic churches report showers of gold glitter appearing spontaneously during worship, and even ordinary amalgam fillings in teeth turning to gold. We know from Job 31:24-28 that believers should never put their confidence in gold. Therefore, we must question the use of gold as a way of proving God is at work. A complete lack of this sort of “work” being evidenced in Scripture or in historical church documents forces a Flag #1 and #3. And while Church history is silent on manifestations of gold, spiritualism/spiritism’s history is replete with it. In fact, manifesting gold is an old medium’s trick—Flag #6, strongly. The lasting value of this kind of manifestation is highly debatable, too, so Flag #7 must be considered. Oddly enough, follow-up on many of these gold filling manifestations finds the supposed gold coloration of the filling to have itself faded away. Do we need to go any further with this? Charismatic, run away!

    The Bible says God’s people perish for lack of knowledge, and so the CM is bankrupting before our very eyes because of a lack of godly knowledge and discernment. We in the CM must work hard to expose the fraudulent—and even demonic—manifestations and practices sweeping charismatic churches, lest the real work of the Holy Spirit be disgraced.

  176. JD

    Hey Julie Im sorry about you and your friend I lost my love to I hop and J hop as she is not allowed to have communication with me Go figure that one out .With so many false practices and half truths mixed in with 1 ounce of TRUTH Its no wonder how they get away with what they promote No Grace no Slavation any JESUS there? I think not there to busy getting slain in the sprit with some misty edwards Misty please stop fasting trust me GOD is not amused Grace misty Grace HE finished it on the CROSS !The bible with I hoppers and J hoppers is surly taken out of context So you are going to present the church as the perfect bride to CHRIST because HE cant come back until you do ? Oh really buy whos authority ?Did JESUS say so ?Hey guys I cant come back till you perfect MY CHURCH ? Once again please hoppers just read about the GOOD NEWS not there news Mike and Lou false lies and demonic sprits …..Yes your not allowed to disagree test discern in GODS WORD Its all about them instead of all about JESUS

  177. JD

    Once again I hop and j hop mike and lou take the Bible out of context and many being led to the slaughter No lets get back to basics GRACE SALVATION finished at the CROSS ….For if you believe in false doctrine that promote these works then you have no need for a SAVIOR in JESUS CHRIST hummmm You bet I need my SAVIOR! and you dont gee you must be perfect?
    Have you heard about that? Dominion Theology, that’s a new label, for a new kind of theology, and there are always new theologies. Dominion Theology comes in a lot of forms, but I think what you are probably talking about is John Wimber, who is now advocating a new kind of Dominion. Let me give you this very simply, ok?

    Dominion Theology, espoused primarily by John Wimber, who is networked through a group of churches called “The Vineyard Churches,” basically is saying, “That as believers, we are to take power over Satan and demons, we are to exercise dominion over them.” There is another kind of theology, that is existing today, that is called “Liberation Theology.” It is a form of theology that says, “That the Church is to take dominion over the institutions of the world.” That’s another form of Dominion Theology, or Kingdom Theology.

    And what it basically says is that the Church’s mandate is to take over the institutions of the world, that’s the Liberation Theology side. What Dominion Theology says is that we are to take over the Powers of Darkness; we are to take over the demons; and we are to take over the spirits; and we are to dominate Satan. We are to take dominion, and that’s why they talk about “Power Evangelism” and “Power Healing.” In other words, he trains people, supposedly, to invade the Satanic World and take dominion over demons.

    That we as Christians, by living in the natural world, and by just moving around in the visible world, have failed to exercise the power that we have, to literally take over the Satanic World. You hear them talk about, “Binding Satan,” have you heard that? “Binding demons; Pleading the Blood on demons; Pleading the Blood on Satan; Taking dominion over, not only demons, but all of the institutions of the world, that are infiltrated and influenced by demons.

    And they believe that whatever people’s problems are, tend to be demon in­duced. And it gets extreme, no matter what it is, it’s a demon, and you have to take dominion over these demons. And that is why they talk about Power Evangelism. They say that you cannot evangelize without signs and wonders. You have to overpower the demonic world, and demonstrate your divine power to the lost, in order for them to be saved. Power Healing, break the bondage of demons and so forth.

    It is unbiblical. We are never told, never told, to take dominion over demons. We are told by James, “Resist the devil and he will” what? “Flee from you.” We are never told to bind Satan. We are never told to bind demons. We are never told to plead the Blood on Satan and demons. Listen to Jude 9, “Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you.’” Even Michael, who is “superan­gel,” did not dare rebuke Satan. But rather said, “Lord, you take care of him.” And if Michael, as a holy angel, does not take to himself the exercise of authority over fallen angels, where would we find a mandate to do that?

    The Bible simply tells us, that if you want to deal with the enemy, you put on the whole armor of God, right? You put on the whole armor of God, and you’ll be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. We are not called to take dominion over the institutions of this world. We are not called to take dominion over demons and over the devil. We are called to get on our spiritual armor, to resist that demonic world and trust in the power of God, who does take care of them.

  178. JD

    For all on the list ……..

    No freedom here When I question no answers no truth no Grace No Salvation No Gods Word Scripture taken out of context When you in you cant question you are part of a group cult mind set No Christianity in that No Holy Sprit just false practices with no justification what so ever in Gods Word No Jesus just bondage to false lies and prophecy false doctrine How long do we let them slander Gods Word? Cant not find any justification for there practices when I question I am told I have no holy sprit yes there right I do not have the false sprit of lies the father of lies surly reigns high in the hops….Leading many astray to false deception When do we stop taking the Bible out of context and just read it and test it against the false deception presented? When do we let HIS WORD renew our mind? Not there’s When do we get out of group think?All Finished at the CROSS by GRACE For if I do follow false doctrine by works Why would we ever need a SAVIOR in the first place ? I’m sorry I need my SAVIOR I’m tired of letting take my FATHERS WORD and twist it aren’t you ?No Jesus never promoted this or said we should follow So why do we continue ……?
    I have a son and daughter in law and 3 grandchildren who have been there for about 1 year, I am very familiar with harp and bowl as i was involved in it at a church in Florida i had warning flags then, since my son has been there he has stopped talking to me , or any one in the family who questions some of there teaching started investigating ihop more deeply when my 18 year old daughter was excepted there for the 4 year internship with music being her interest, as i looked deeper i found many disturbing patterns i am 57 years old and when i was 19 i got involved with a cult called the children of god they are still around today, there methods of brain washing isolation control etc. are so similar to what is going on at ihop David berg was there leader and as many cult leaders in Christianity he was the son of a pastor and knew the word of god he used his charisma to influence and control young people this is the pattern of many cults they may have some truth but because JESUS is really not the Central focus but, the teachings and interpretation of scripture by the leader or anointed one in charge is the true focus ,when they get the youths minds then there hearts follow .independent thinking is called rebellion, against gods prophet, chosen special etc. this is so dangerous and as the word of GOD says there will be MANY false Christ ,prophets in the last days ,they will come as angels of light and without a true understanding of the word of GOD all those who flock to these false prophets are in real danger especially the young ones because many have a true desire to serve JESUS and when something like ihop comes along and becomes global it looks so right and many are deceived into a false Christianity, right now my son is not teachable to any other teaching or thought pattern that does not fit the ihop doctrine, my concern for the accepting of the false prophets and error that are being drilled into these people hurts so much more when you have a son being so deceived i know when he first went his heart was to serve the LORD but over time he is not my joe he has changed and gets so angry and defensive if questioned , that right there sends up flags as he was not like this before. he left a church that he was a worship leader in and had a nice home and he says his reason for going was for music! he was already doing what GOD had called him to do BUT his best friend from first grade through high school got him convinced that ihop was the place where gods special anointing was, that they were so right and with 24 hour prayer and all the other so called prophets and the paradigm shift and the other bickel weird teachings that it sounded so good and he got convinced that he was to go, now he struggles financially and i just do not see the fruit of the SPIRIT in what is happening with him and his family, there is real evil out cloaked in what looks so good but test the spirit of a man and his teachings against scripture and the truth will be seen , problem is if you do not have a strong foundation in the word of GOD or become un teachable you will get deceived and lose your identity and will no longer be ALLOWED to think for your self or question any teaching coming from the leaders, power corrupts as does money when it is abused as it is being done at ihop, i pray that a true prophet will be sent there and with HOLY boldness and true anointing reveal the lies false teachings and error that are being taught there that the eyes of the blind be opened before we lose a whole generation of youth to the deceiver and destroyer, i wish no ill on mike bickel or any other leader there only that if they do not humble themselves and repent ,you have the sprit of deception in you false prophet with nothing to stand for When do you say hey I know this is not right I cant even prove its right in scripture When do we stop following lie after lie?Revival don’t think so false revival as it says in scripture many will fall away from the FAITH in the last days …..HE waits for you with open arms to come home by Grace His Saved us Grace no works no doctrines no false prophecy all GRACE …..

    I am accepted…
    John 1:12 I am God’s child.
    John 15:15 As a disciple, I am a friend of Jesus Christ.
    Romans 5:1 I have been justified.
    1 Corinthians 6:17 I am united with the Lord, and I am one with Him in spirit.
    1 Corinthians 6:19-20 I have been bought with a price and I belong to God.
    1 Corinthians 12:27 I am a member of Christ’s body.
    Ephesians 1:3-8 I have been chosen by God and adopted as His child.
    Colossians 1:13-14 I have been redeemed and forgiven of all my sins.
    Colossians 2:9-10 I am complete in Christ.
    Hebrews 4:14-16 I have direct access to the throne of grace through Jesus Christ.

  179. Let’s all pray for this family. Father, I ask in Jesus’ name that the blinders would be removed from their hearts and minds, that You in Your mercy would let them see what they’ve gotten themselves into. I pray Lord that you would release them. And I pray that JD can walk in Your compassion and forgiveness, as well as Your righteous anger, without sinning. Lord let them repent of seeking not the kingdom first. Show them that they’ve followed a ‘lo, He is here, or there’ voice they should not have believed. I ask they could be brought to a true, pure simplicity of worship and obedience unto You, wherever You choose to take them, For they, like us, are in Your hands. We surrender all in faith, in trust of Your sovereign love. In Jesus’ name, amen.

  180. Ernest Gruen’s original letter is very hard to find online.
    Right now you can find it here:
    http://www.banner.org.uk/
    Go down the page and look for “Kansas City Prophets” and “Aberrant Practices”
    Download it and save on your computer as it may disappear soon.

  181. Here’s a direct link to the pdf:

    http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/kcp/Abberent%20Practises.pdf

    This is the (relatively) new website of Tricia Booth (formerly Tillin) who initially put the Gruen Report into pdf.

  182. BJ

    Thank you so much for this. I’ve just spent about 5 hours trying to piece together whats going on in IHOP. Very disturbing. This response from Gruen is amazing though because the reports of a “letter” are not new. Is he denying *any* letter?

    I also read this last night:
    http://www.mvcf.com/resources/otherbeliefs/cache/cri/crj0044a.html

    Newswatch
    by William Alnor and Robert Lyle a column of the Christian Research Journal, Fall 1990, page 5.
    Controversial Prophetic Movement Is Incorporated Into The Vineyard

    John Wimber, leader of Anaheim, California-based Vineyard Ministries, released a 15-point statement in late June listing errors he found at the controversial Kansas City Fellowship (KCF).

    A short time later, Ernest Gruen — pastor of the Full Faith Church of Love in Shawnee, Kansas — released a letter apologizing for “any unnecessary pain that I have caused” in charging the 3,000-member, six-church KCF and its leaders with “charismatic heresy.” He also retracted three questionable charges he had brought against the KCF, while affirming the essential accuracy of his documentation. He released the situation into Wimber’s hands for correction.

    CRI are not sympathetic to KCF and I get the impression they are quite careful with reporting and quoting. Yet they appear to be quoting from some document they have looked at. This would seem to indicate some letter existed. Someone must still have this letter somewhere… If so, I think it would be very helpful if that letter could be published here.

    IMHO, Its quite likely that with the handover to Wimber, Gruen would have written something to close off his involvement in the affair. Perhaps during that period of hopeful relief that Wimber was going to “fix” everything he even opened a door for later reconciliation by expressing regret for any “unnecessary” pain — I probably would have. Has this letter then been interpreted as a blanket apology and a retraction of all charges by KCF? That would seem a logical solution to the confusing reports.

    I’m still missing some details though (excuse me if they are common knowledge – like I say I am only 5 hours into my research here). What were the 3 questionable charges that were retracted? And which ones remained?

    Can anyone offer any insight here?
    BJ

  183. I was in the Vineyard during the Kansas City season, and therefore have some knowledge of what transpired. Most of what is published on this blog is inaccurate and non Christ glorifying. The Kansas City group made some major mistakes, but they owned up to them, publicly repented and turned away from them. Read Bill Jackson’s book on the history of the Vineyard (of which Bickle and the Kansas City boys were just one small part) for an honest and accurate account of what happened there.

    Gruen had his own issues which came back to bite him as well. He did recant on several issues, he backed off of the rest when Wimber stepped in to help clean up the mess; he did in fact apologize to the Kansas City leadership in a letter and in person, he did as an answer to his public critique of the Kansas City group, publish in the papers a public apology and a “letting go” of his tirade against them. I have friends in Kansas City (I do not live there, nor am I a part of them) and have seen the letter and the newspaper clipping and heard first hand accounts of what transpired from people who were involved (though soime of them no longer are).

    Gruen also admitted that part of his crusade against the Kansas City prophets was due to one of them confronting him with a prophetic word about his marital indiscretions, which at the time he vehemently denied, but later became public knowledge and then he admitted to. He attacked the prophets, partially, to cover his tail for his own indiscretions because he feared they would go public with what they alledged the Lord had shown them (they never did go public with that information – all of that came from Gruen himself).

    Gruen publicly admitted all of this for years and then later recanted – no one knows why, and he isn’t here so we can ask him. Bottom line, with all of the quoting of Scripture and allegations and accusations, none of this is valid and is paramount to beating a dead horse.

    A while back, we were ministering to a young lady who was coming out of an unhealthy drug addiction. She was staying with my wife and I. She told us one afternoon how angry she had been with her parents when she discovered that they had lied to her for years about Santa. If they lied to her about Santa, maybe this Jesus they had told her about was false as well. Her conclusion? She chose to believe in Santa and in Jesus. Fantasy. Good conversation material but no concrete material. Same here.

    There is an authentic King and a Kingdom message to be preached. In light of that reality, I suggest shutting down this site and get about the Father’s business and not the devil’s.

    Blessings,
    Buddy

  184. Hi Buddy. Thanks for writing in.
    I would respectfully disagree with your assessment of the content of this blog. While I thoroughly agree with the comment concerning the need to be about the Father’s business with which you close your contribution, I would assert and contend that the devil’s business of stealing, killing and destroying is furthered by a consistent pattern of dishonesty and manipulation that has been present in KCF and its offshoots for many years.
    I too was part of the Vineyard movement, during the ending days of KCF’s affiliation with them. Bickle’s and others’ tapes, lectures and inclusion in the Vineyard’s publications and conferences were well known and widely disseminated. I’ve read Bill’s book as well, though it’s been many years.
    In light of Ernie’s published report, which was not done on his own, but with the full faith and credit of his elders as well, I would have to say that nothing you have written undermines its veracity in any way. It is much like a court transcript, full of testimony, not by Gruen alone, but from many who over the years were affected by the unbiblical conduct and practice of KCF. And this is the root from which IHOP has sprung. Their beliefs and practices in some ways are equally questionable, if not aberrant.
    You cannot simply discredit Ernie, as the publication is not his work and testimony alone. His failure in his marital life is not a dismissal of the truth of his report of the abuse and evil that occurred. They are separate issues and will always be so. I hope you can understand why that is. Even if his motives were wrong, what matters is whether or not the events in his report occurred. I believe you are falling into a postmodern thinking type of logical error that attempts to discredit the message by finding dirt on the messenger. But we all have that, so I guess bringing that logic to its conclusion, no one can trust anything anyone has ever said about anything ever.
    If you have seen this letter and newspaper clipping, please provide a copy if you can, or let us all know from where we can get a copy. No one has yet been able to produce a copy of the letter, though several bloggers have heard of and/or mentioned its existence. Ernie denied before he did that any such document existed, so if it does, we are all eager to see and read it.
    It is our prayer that all people come to know Jesus, but we must be careful that the Jesus we tell about, relate to, live for and model is the real Jesus, and not just something we’ve cooked up to make ourselves feel better and have whatever good time we think we should be having. Otherwise, we might as well be Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses, but with hipper music.
    I applaud your ministry to this woman and am equally saddened that she was unable to separate reality from fantasy. But her story isn’t over yet, and love hopes all things. I pray Jesus will use you and your wife as a channel of truth and stability for her.
    Dave
    P.S. Some of the comments on this site aren’t uplifting and are really sarcastic and laced with anger, that is true. I agree with you there. But that’s what happens when people write or talk. The difference is, here it’s more visible and permanent. God will judge men for every idle word they speak, isn’t that in the Book somewhere?

  185. BJ

    Thanks, as I continued to read here I saw that someone called Jackson had written a book… Looks like this is going to be a a bit of work to get to the bottom of.

    I feel like I have just dropped in from another planet. All this davidic stuff is cropping up in my circles these days, harps and bowel movements etc… Thanked someone for leading worship the other day and got rebuked – seems it was a “devotion”. Doh how dumb can I get? realised I need to catch up on this new dialect that has hit town and figure out where it comes from…
    anyway next question: Julie gives her story here:
    https://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/2010/01/14/julies-story

    A point I wish to make, in regards to KCF’s beginnings, is the original prophet who spoke to Mike back in St. Louis. This man prophesied that Mike needed to move to Kansas City to begin this new move of God. His name was Augustine Acolla. He was later dismissed as somewhat false when a certain prophecy never came to pass. He was also later discovered to have a hidden homosexual lifestyle what was exposed before he passed away, but he needs to be included in the Kansas City Prophets head count, as he was highly esteemed and credited from the beginning as a true prophet.

    then there is a further down a quote from Bill Fawcett:

    Speaking of Augustine Alcala. I found interesting that in the 12pt. Prophetic History, Bickle jokes about how Alcala did not like hands laid on his head because he did not want his hair to be messed up.

    All musing aside, I’ve noted that Mike Bickle made this sober statement about Alcala:
    “The prophet, a bona-fide prophet that I will embrace with all my reputation…there’s a brother who lives in Pheonix, Arizona, who is a prophet that I will endorse. He’s the only one that I would speak and rest my entire reputation upon him. Because when you endorse a prophet, if the guy’s bad, you suffer the reproach, if he’s good, you get the blessing. You had better judge a prophet before you embrace him. It’s a sober thing.
    -Mike Bickle, 4-17-1983 “Blow the Trumpet in Zion”

    So who is this Acolla/Alcala guy? A google brings up very little. Just a few more snippets here (and perhaps an obiturary?):
    http://gospelmasquerade.wordpress.com/2010/01/01/some-of-my-ihop-red-flags/

    I find it very disturbing that what so far appears to be the main 3 prophets who instigated this new wave of creative theology are all all at some stage disciplined for sexual immorality. All three! Is this the foundation? I am starting to think Islam got a better start than this.

    Sorry to bother again but does anyone have more background details on Alcala?
    BJ

  186. BJ

    Buddy says:

    Gruen also admitted that part of his crusade against the Kansas City prophets was due to one of them confronting him with a prophetic word about his marital indiscretions

    This raises the accusations against Gruen past the level that can be brushed off as an ad hominem attack I believe. Can you prove this Buddy? Gruen seems to imply that his indiscretions occured later on…
    BJ

  187. TimH

    1st Gruen admitted that he had an indescretion and I agree that has nothing to do with thetopic of the Abherant Teachings of the KC Prophets….
    BJ,

    I would go to this site…
    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/

    And take a look at all of the linked articles that he has on the right hand side of the page as well as some of the more recent articles that have been posted. I think you will find that the majority of the writings are about the teachings and not so much judgement on the men.

    You are hitting many good sites that tell it like it is about the ministries and the teachings. This one as well. also check out (new site) http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/ for further information. This all ties in too what you are researching.

    Have fun BJ and please ask many questions at the sites I have referenced. These are solid biblical based brother, some out of vineyard, some out of orthodox church, some out of baptist, pentecostal, etc. who have looked at the teachings, false prophecies and prophets that much has been built upon as the foundation of these false teachings. I myself out of 4square.

  188. TimH

    Biblical base brothers and sisters in the Lord!!! sorry..I want to give credit due where it belongs…

  189. BJ,

    Here’s a free mp3 download from IHOP which discusses some of the early days including Augustine Alcolla/Alcala/etc. (not sure of the spelling):

    http://www.ihopmp3store.com/Groups/1000021591/IHOP_MP3_Downloads/Free_MP3s/Free_MP3s.aspx

    For comparison, read the account of the “3 month drought” on pages 41-42 of the Gruen report and compare to Bickle’s version @ 30:40-42:11 on Disc 4 which Bickle apparently altered after the fact in view of the higher than usual rainfall of June 1983.

    I’m currently working on a blog post of Bob Jones; so, I had the above info right at hand.

  190. BJ

    Thanks for the leads. Will follow them up. Am ordering Jacksons book. I found a reasonable summary here for now if that is a help to anyone else:
    http://www.onlinethoughts.com/history/Quest_Radical_Middle.htm

    I’m still googling stuff. This is probably the most disturbing set of videos I have seen yet (below). It basically sums up my view:
    Kundalini warning by Andrew Strom


    Andrew Strom is charismatic himself and yet he is totally against this craziness we are seeing at IHOP, Redding, Toronto.

    Can I suggest something here? I am actually having a lot of difficulty collating materials that I can use to warn people in charismatic circles because a lot of the critiques are so strongly cessationsist, pre-trib (eg Clasen etc although I agree it seems to me this manifest superman stuff is basically a kind of post-trib), or sarcastic. The problem is that the people most in danger here are those within the charismatic/pentecostal movements of our global church (which happen to be the fastest growing and one quarter of all Christians! This is no small problem). Andrew Strom has it right when he says we charismatics have a major lack of discernment amongst our top leadership. We have a massive splinter in our eyes blinding us. I just want to beg my cessationsist brothers and sisters who are reading this and who CAN see to please help us in this time of need. This is not time to try and make converts to cessationism, to rave on about pre-trib, score sarcastic “one-ups”, or write off a quarter of christianity as satanic – All that will do is close peoples minds…

    I came here (and other sites) because I sensed there is something wrong and I am very appreciative of your help, but I fear some of my friends would not say around long enough to listen. Can I beg you, just focus on the obviously bad fruit and theology. There is plenty there. Perhaps when (if) we charismatics survive this craziness we will be open to hear some of the more “denominational” issues…

    Please, I’m just saying this above in general, not as a judgement of this site, just a general impression I get as I google around the web. Actually, I found this site the most helpful . Its one of the few sites I’ve actually interacted with so I leave this comment here too (probably in the wrong place but I am not the most blogg-savvy)
    Thank you again. May God bless you and your much-needed service to your brethren in their time of need.
    BJ

  191. What i find truly interesting about the ‘recantation letter/newspaper article’ issue is that everybody’s seen it, or them, but no one can get us a copy. Or a link. Or anything of substance. Makes me wonder…

  192. Dave,
    That was 20 years! It was published in the Kansas City papers, you can check the archives. Christianity Today, Charisma, Christian Research Institute all have acknowledged all of that. But nobody is concerned with rehashing events that were settled 20 years ago :-). What if I brought up events in your past on a website from 20 years ago and demanded that you produce papers, letters, documentation. If you are like most sensible folk, your reply would be something like, “Get a life, let it go, move on.” Right?

    All of the people that were there have publicly acknowledged all that transpired and everyone said it was settled. All of the parties , all credible, have suggested living for today and preparing for tomorrow, not living in yesterday. Jesus puts our failures and mistakes in the sea of forgetfulness, never to be remembered no more. Only our enemy brings up settled issues, and never for a righteous cause. Think about it.

  193. Because it’s not really a settled issue. The comment:
    “All of the people that were there have publicly acknowledged all that transpired and everyone said it was settled.”
    doesn’t square with Ernie’s published testimony before he passed away.
    Credibility is and nearly always has been in question when it comes to this church and its offspring movements.
    You could certainly bring up events from my past, from 20 years ago if you deemed it necessary. Case in point. I recently had lunch with the man who took my virginity. He had some issues in his life and sleeping with me continued to be one of them, even though it was long ago. And in speaking with him i found there were things in me that also needed to be addressed, that had simply slept during that time. So it was a good healing time for both of us.
    And if you lied on your website, you’d be subject to legal action. The crux of the matter is, after all this time who is now telling the truth? Mr. Gruen, before he passed away, thoroughly denied the assertions that there was any recantation or reconciliation that has been described by members of KFC-IHOP. With their questionable, and in some cases wrong beliefs and practices, which are rooted, grounded and nourished in the foundation laid at that time, I would say the burden of proof would have to be on them.
    What seems to me to be occurring is another kind of bait-and switch, though i know that’s not the right term. ‘Don’t look at all the bad stuff we did, look at all the good stuff we’re doing now,’ seems to be the party line. The problem is that the practices, the theology and the very directives creating this movement have their source in all the bad stuff that happened and was not resolved. How good then can it truly be? Popular and well crafted, certainly. IHOP’s arrangement of ‘Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee’ is well done. But so is Holst’s ‘The Planets’ suite, wherein he tries to musically convey the astrological nature of each of sphere then known in our solar system.
    But I will see if I can find this stuff in KC news archives. Any ideas/links where to look?

  194. Dave,
    I would check with the KC newspapers. I saw the article but that was yeares ago and I do not remember which paper it was in, I was interested in the article not so much with where it was from at the time (never thought it would be an ongoing issue that would need to be recalled).

    I was a Vineyard leader and can sure you that “many” prople were aware of every detail of what transpired at the time. When Wimber stepped in to help clear up the mess, there were meetings with Gruen, documents handed around, meeting after meeting. I realize that Gruen changed his story later (which he apparently did several times along the way) but that doesn’t change what happened.

    The Kansas City guys messed up, they admit it. Gruen was just as messed up at the time (which wasn’t publicly known until later – but Gruen freely admitted it later) When Wimber and the Vineyard stepped in, Gruen recanted several issues that he had been pushing. When all of the facts about his own problems came out, he told Wimber he would apologize to Bickle (which he did – he even attended several of their prayer meetings) ), since he he publicly attacked the KC prophets, he felt he should publicly apologize which he did in the paper.

    His grandson later became part of IHOP (and had a blog where he freely talked about all of this – I know because I read the blog). His grandson blogged that Gruen had “made up” with Bickle, and that while they weren’t chums, they weren’t adversarial either.

    His grandson later, as I understand it, left IHOP, and later himself recanted what he had been saying about what had happened. Strange stuff.

    I can only vouch about what I know. The Vineyard stepped in, Bickle and his leadership repented publicly. As a result, Gruen recanted, he apologized privately and publicly to what had become the Metro Vineyard and life went on.

    Later I read that Gruen did an about face and recanted his recantation. Again strange stuff. I am no longer in the Vineyard, but I have friends who are. When this stuff comes up they just roll their eyes and shrug their shoulders. At the time, everyone knew what had happened, it was public knowledge. Now it is being rehashed over 20 years later. Good reading material 🙂 but no one is benefiting from it. Read Bill Jackson’s history of the Vineyard, which has a detailed account of what happened.

    Blessings.

  195. Buddy,
    I’m interested in learning what, exactly, the KCF pastors and prophets repented of, and what changes were made as a result of this repentance. And, also, how they have continued in this vein since then.

  196. Julie, hi!
    You can read Bickle’s story in interview’s in both Charisma and in Christianity Today’s archives. As far as changes, everything changed. Anyone that was around back in the day and sees what is going on today would recognize that. The only ones who don’t are those who are reading the accusations without facts. Notice how many are saying it is up to IHOP to validate their story? That’s riduculous.

    Private and public apologies, interviews in the nation’s leading Christian publications, national Christian leaders involved in the resolution of the issues and everything is laid to rest – everyone is satisfied. 20 years later, people who weren’t even around at the time yell and scream that because “they” weren’t there, what happened didn’t happen and “they” won’t believe it until “they” see it – 20 years later. It’s like the people people who say we never went to the moon and won’t believe it until it is proven to them 🙂 People who were ther just smile and say, “have a nice day” 🙂

  197. The facts about the resolution of the Kansas City Prophets controversy can be found in the January 14, 1991 and March 9, 1992, Christianity Today articles; In Ministry Today’s article – Sept/October 1990), “Resolving the Kansas City Prophecy Controversy” among others

  198. Buddy,
    Can you provide urls? I’m searching; I but, cannot find the articles you reference.
    Thanks,

  199. Buddy,

    I have a hard time believing an individual would “recant their recantation” and continue on when there is supposedly some info to the contrary. My inclination is that KCF/Metro tried to cover it up.

    Why do I say that? The tapes referenced in the Gruen document were also transcribed by Jewel Grewe (van der Merwe) which confirm at least parts of this document. And, Bickle’s revised version of the “drought of ’83” doesn’t even make sense. If August 23rd was to be the date this “word” would be validated, common sense dictates this date would be the end of the drought and not in the middle.

  200. Buddy,
    Actually, I don’t fall into the ’20 years later’ category. I was there up until Ernie blew the whistle, and followed it closely for a year or so after leaving. As a matter of fact, we kept being invited back to KCF to witness breaking testimony regarding coming clean of abherrent practices. Mike came clean regarding sloppy prophetic episodes and an elitest mind set. The prophets were ‘sat down’ and the elitest mind set seems to remain to this day. I also, years later, remember when Mike started the prayer room back up, he repented of ever setting the prophets down! So, you can see why a person like me might be a little confused right now.
    However, thanks for pointing me in the direction of documentation that verifies what you say. I will look into it further.

  201. Craig,
    No url’s, you can contact the respective magazines for copies, but they aren’t on their websites. Sorry. I had copies of the articles at one time, but I have moved 5 times since then and I have no idea where they are 🙂

  202. Buddy,

    I did find this one from Ministry Today (Sept/Oct 2004:

    http://www.ministrytodaymag.com/display.php?id=9655

    “Few have experienced the controversy of the prophetic movement more intensely than Mike Bickle, who was pastor of Kansas City Fellowship (KCF) in Kansas City, Missouri, in 1990 when the ministry of several prophets in his church brought criticism from a group of charismatic pastors in the city. Although the late Vineyard founder John Wimber came to assist in reconciling the various parties involved, several leaders ultimately parted ways. ”

    I should also state that Bickle’s proof-texts for 24/7 prayer (Acts 15:16, Amos 9:11, etc) DO NOT point to David’s “make-shift” (my words) tabernacle. While he’s finally admitted this is incorrect exegesis and revised the IHOP “Affirmations and Denials” page; yet, it still reads:

    “…James quoted Amos to prove that many Gentiles will be saved in the context of the restoration of the Davidic dynastic reign. This restoration will, of course, include David’s heart for worship and prayer. Though Amos 9:11 is not prophesying primarily about 24/7 intercessory worship, it will be a foundational reality in the release of Jesus’ worldwide rule over the nations…”

    This STILL goes beyond the Scripture as Amos 9:11 speaks NOTHING of 24/7 worship.

    More changing of “facts” in order to cover tracks.

  203. i did try one of the KC papers but their archives only go back to 91. Will follow up after work. thanks Buddy.
    Whereand in what capacity were you servin gin the Vineyard back in the day? Did you already put tha tup here and i missedit? Sorry typing is bad, i’ve cut several of my fingers and the pain is overriding my need for precision.

  204. Pingback: Bethel to Feature Bob Jones at Upcoming Prophetic Conference « CrossWise

  205. BJ

    I should also state that Bickle’s proof-texts for 24/7 prayer (Acts 15:16, Amos 9:11, etc) DO NOT point to David’s “make-shift” (my words) tabernacle. While he’s finally admitted this is incorrect exegesis and revised the IHOP “Affirmations and Denials” page…

    I’m interested in this point. What started to get me frustrated with this movement is that it seems to be especially targeting core scriptures related to mission (obviously Acts 15 is one of these key passages). The passages are appropriated and neutralised. I’m concerned. Why does this movement seem determined to take the wind out of the sails of mission? Even missionary has been redefined to “intercessory missionary”. Think of all the resources (human & material) getting sidetracked from the mission fields…

    Dave. Do you have copies of earlier versions of the “Affirmations and Denials” and/or IHOP teachings that deal with this Amos 9:11 nonsense? There is so much to wade through, if someone has already done this it would be nice to know!
    thanks
    BJ

  206. BJ

    Another question. It appears to me that Bickle insistence in holding onto this Davidic tabernacle nonsense is because it is so foundational to the original Bob Jones “prophecy” . Even though Bob Jones is no longer publicly mentioned much now (more editing?), it seems that this is only to avoid criticism, his prophetic word is still claimed to be the foundation of the ministry there…
    Is that correct?
    BJ

  207. BJ,

    Here’s a July 2008 Charisma article which shows the Acts 15 error (among others) of Bickle regading the Tabernacle of David:

    http://charismamag.com/index.php/charisma-channels/prayer/18744

    This was a reprint of 2000 article; however, the link to that one is, unfortunately, no longer valid. I wrote an article on this 2.5 years ago which was posted on another blog (I may revise and posted on the CrossWise blog as I’m not 100% satisfied with the content):

    http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/2008/07/17/confusion-on-the-davidic-tabernacle/

    If you do a quick websearch, you’ll find Bickle’s error perpetuated quite a bit.

  208. Previous post: posted = post it

    BJ,

    Listen to the link at Jan 8 2:56 and you’ll see that Jones is still credited with having provided “foundational revelation.” I don’t recall exactly how specific it is (it’s an exhausting listen as a 12 session series); but, it certainly emphasizes how Jones played a key role in Bickle’s early ministry.

  209. Obviously, I’ve not had my requisite caffeine intake. Two posts above, last sentence should’ve read:

    If you do a quick websearch on “Tabernacle of David,” you’ll find Bickle’s error perpetuated quite a bit.

  210. BJ

    IV. PROPHECIES OF THE END-TIME RESTORATION OF DAVID’S TABERNACLE
    A. In May 1983 the Lord said audibly: “I will establish 24-hour-a-day prayer in the spirit of the tabernacle of David.” This was a prophecy for the Church in the nations about God’s determination to establish 24/7 prayer in the cities of the earth. It was not mostly a reference to IHOP-KC, which is but a tiny subunit of this global end-time prophecy.

    B. We must not reduce “the spirit of the tabernacle of David” to prayer meetings led by worship teams. It is more. It is a summary statement of the new expression of Christianity. There are three biblical promises to restore David’s tabernacle (Isa. 16:5; Amos 9:11-12; Acts 15:16-17).

    Found that here:
    http://www.mikebickle.org.edgesuite.net/MikeBickleVOD/2010/20100524_Convergence_of_Missions_and_Prayer-IHOP-KC_s_Role_to_Serve_Others.pdf (pg2)

    Not quite so “nuanced” as their affirmations & denials it seems. So these out of context verses are to be the “summary statement of the new expression of Christianity”? Does that mean the “new” Christianity will be out of context? Was this Bob Jones’ audible voice in 83?
    BJ

  211. BJ,

    Good find! I will probably use that in my revision to the ToD article. Note that Bickle denies — in the Affirmations and Denials — that their movement is the end-times prayer movement:

    We Deny that the restoration of the tabernacle of David is the same as the end-time prayer movement.

    Yet, this document states that it is.

    Hmmmm…

  212. BJ

    Whoops missed page 3:

    In 750 BC, Amos prophesied of the restoration of David’s tabernacle. He linked the timing to the generation in which Israel would be restored to the land, never to be pulled up. This time frame began in May 1948. This is the only time frame in history when this prophecy could be fulfilled. The time when Israel was restored to the land signaled the time when a new measure of the spirit of the tabernacle of David reality would be released, connected to the great harvest.
    11 I will raise up the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, and repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old; 12 that they may possess the remnant of Edom [Islam] and all the Gentiles [nations, Mt. 24:14]…called by My name…14 I will bring back the captives of My people Israel [1948]; they shall build the waste cities…15 I will plant them in their land, and no longer shall they be pulled up from the land… (Amos 9:11-15)

    D. One result of the tabernacle of David is that Jesus may possess the remnant of Edom. Edom speaks of the Arab nations, specifically the Islamic nations. Therefore, a key to winning Islam is for the Church to function in the spirit of David’s tabernacle. We are in that hour of history.

    E. In about 50 AD, James quoted Amos’ prophecy about David’s tabernacle being restored.

    16 After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up; 17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, even all the Gentiles [nations, Mt. 24:14] who are called by My name… (Acts 15:16-17)

    F. The fullness of God’s promise to restore the tabernacle of David speaks of the full release of Jesus’ government across all the nations in the context of prophetic worship with intercession. It will only be completely restored
    in Jesus’ millennial government based on 24/7 Davidic worship.

    G. After Jesus returns as a Jewish king, the Son of David, He will rule all nations from Jerusalem and operate in all the facets of the tabernacle of David. This is more than a prayer movement; it is a governmental movement fueled by prayer. The spirit of David’s tabernacle is operating now.

    So basically, when Jesus comes back we’re all going to be doing 24/7 harp and bowel movements so you better get used to it. This will be (and therefore is now) the only really valid worship style.
    BJ

  213. BJ

    There are serious MSOG undertones here Craig but I don’t understand this very well yet. Any comments?
    BJ

  214. BJ,

    Have you read my most recent piece on Bob Jones?:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/01/13/bethel-to-feature-bob-jones-at-upcoming-prophetic-conference/

    This shows clearly that Jones is still — as of ’08, at least — overtly teaching MSoG. It’s very hard to try to explain in a few words (or even in many) where the connection is to IHOP. I’m open to conversing via phone; so, if you’ll contact me over on my blog by either making a comment or on my “About” tab, then I’ll have your email address and I can provide my phone number to you. I’ve absolutely, no problem if you’re not comfortable with that.

  215. I just read these passages in Amos and Acts. To me, this is very faulty theology based on mis-interpretation. IMHO it’s eisegesis: we have our idea, our ‘prophetic word from God,’ so let’s find some Scripture to back it up. Lo and behold, it was in the Bible all the time and these stodgy old traditionalists missed it because they don’t really move with the Spirit.
    Never mind the obvious fact that James was referring to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Gentiles, not some 24/7 musical dance party.
    Now, there’s nothing wrong with 24/7 music dance parties- I think they’re called raves, aren’t they? It’s good to have an alternative to a drugged out experience. But don’t make more of it than it is. Don’t shove it up everybody’s butt in the name of Jesus, or maybe Suzanne Hinn’s ‘Holy Ghost enema’ will find you out, just like your sin does.

  216. dave,

    You are, of course, correct; and, that’s pretty much what I stated in the old article above — that is, that it was eisegis rather than exegesis.

  217. I read the Charisma Article. Briefly, it’s all about Mike’s interpretation. How can he say he’s ‘follow the pattern established by David’ when the description in the Old Testament is so incomplete? As well as the fact that the early church saw the scriptural fulfillment of one of his key foundational reasonings in a completely different light? Again, it’s all eisegesis, from his interpretation of what goes on around God’s throne to what we’re supposed to be doing today.
    Reading of I Chr. 25: 1-7 reveals neither detail nor a pattern, but merely who got picked to serve and in what group. I wonder what they did in their off time? They had houses, lands, families, children, though perhaps being Levitical they had no set territory; they still had homes and cities. And lest we forget, the worship at the Tabernacle of Moses was going on all this time as well. One did not supplant the other. A full reading in context shows that this occurred at the end of David’s life during a national leadership assembly when he was handing over his kingly duties to Solomon and was setting things in order for the building of the first Temple. Not a whole lot you can establish 24/7 when you’re about to go. In fact the 24/7 thing is an eisegesis in this passage as well because it’s never mentioned once. It’s inferred because of the divisions of labor, but it’s an inference and indemonstrable from the text. Nothing about intercession either.
    What is ‘the beauty realm of God’ anyway? Looking at IHOP’s practice and theology you would think it’s some sort of trippy out mystical vision experience. And it’s all based on one verse in Psalm 27, which point really is the Lord’s vindication of David in triumph over his foes, not just waiting in bliss at the altar 24/7.
    (I think these kids and adults are shown disconnected passages of Scripture and told what to think about it. It keeps them from reading it for themselves and seeing these things in context.)
    Again he misinterprets Isaiah 56. The passage isn’t talking about ‘joyful prayer.’ Even the verse he uses as his proof text, verse 7, isn’t talking about prayer. If you read it IN CONTEXT you see that God is talking about accepting all people into His house, even those that thought they were cast out or unacceptable in some way.
    Saying that in Revelation ‘the harp speaks of worship, the bowl of intercession’ sounds great, but it’s a novel interpretation, and even if he is right, it’s been going on already for centuries. It is something that already exists, not something we have to make happen on earth. To try is IMHO to rebuild the Tower of Babel all over again.
    Isaiah didn’t prophesy about ‘enjoyable prayer,’ so Bickle’s ‘secret’ is no seccrt at all: it is the occult, really, the hidden thing that we had to figure out and puzzle out from these random Scriptures scattered throughout centuries of writing and assembly and centuries more of misinterpretation until the secret was found. None of this is real; it’s man’s attempt to reach heaven all over again.

    This whole movement completely overlooks what is said in Micah 6:6-8: ‘He has shown you, o man, what is good, and what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?’ Micah is speaking of the inadequacy of any sacrifice that could be brought to God for our forgiveness, in the face of God’s contending with his people’s dissatisfaction at His provision. Is Jesus not enough? If Mike’s previous prayer life was boring and dreadful, perhaps his heart was the issue, and that’s what should have been talked about in prayer. It’s not like God can’t handle that. But to turn one’s personal issues into a worldwide movement based on misinterpretation of God’s Word is something dreadful and will more than likely be under the ‘greater judgment’ the NT speaks about.

  218. BJ

    I’ve recently been meditating on the whole exodus story… It struck me that Ex 15 seems pretty joyful. One of the most powerful mega worship times the world has seen I imagine. It doesn’t mention Moses getting a sloppy wet kiss or anything but the intimacy of friendship Moses had is incredible. To the extent his face was shining… And yet we are supposed to believe that before David got undignified that worship was shallow and sombre???

    BTW I saw a really loopy IHOP video chanting “I can get more undignified” as a mantra. So this is somehow deeper, more meaningful, more intimate, than Ex 15?

  219. BJ

    Heres part of the teaching (using ps 132). Bickle makes some quite strong statements at the end. eg Jesus will not come back until the davidic worship (that is implied to be the only valid worship since it is a replica of that in heaven ) is happening all over the world. Shame it cuts as he was just warming up…

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  221. AnsRssElio

    ???! ????? ???? ????????????? ????? Ca$iity9 ? ????? ?????!
    ?ea??! ?i??ea?e?? ?aa?a??u oi????a?? ei??a i?e?a???? au?i? e??u Ca$iity10 ? ?ia?e?i ca e?oi??a?e?!
    ????? ?????!

  222. james wallamsey

    Could you ask Mr Gruen if it is correct he was found to not only be in “serious sin” while making the original accuasstions about mike bickle and kcf but was doing so while writting his abherrant practices book – i found a tape of Mr Gruen proclaiming himself as a farther to Kansas City and stating that God gave him a dream directing to do what he had done – could he illaberate more on this “dream”

  223. James,
    Pastor Gruen passed away a few years back. It is unfortunate that he was engaging in sinful behavior during this time, however, I don’t believe the events spelled out in his ‘Aberrant Practices’ document, nor his sermon ‘Do we keep smiling and say nothing,’ are less credible because of his behavior.

    Pastor Gruen suffered loss as a result of his own sin, as the scriptures clearly declare will happen to us all. The question you should ask, I believe, is “is this true?” I was there during this period of time, and it is true.

  224. Julie,
    I was around during that season as well. I personally know many of the participants in the drama. I was a leader in the Vineyard during that time and know some of the inside scoop.

    There was problems at MCF – but they were dealt with – in a public manner, Mike, the church and several of the key leaders were disciplined and subsequently restored and released into ministry. Mike has publicly repented and renounced and settled the issues against him and the church. Several of the leaders who were involved in more serious sins were dealt with and removed from ministry.

    I am assuming (as I am the eternal optimist ) that you, like I, desire to be a person of integrity. Gruen was living in scandalous sin, a prophet, who had no personal knowledge of the situation, approached him and gave him the Nathanistic opportunity to repent. Gruen denied everything and later said that was when he decided to discredit Metro – to cover his sin.

    Later, Gruen, was discovered and you are right he paid a price for his choices, as we all do. He publicly admitted that he blew everything out of proportion, he repented to the church in the city in the Kansas City paper (I have seen and read the clipping – no I don’t have a copy of it.He approached Mike and repented, Mike forgave him. Later, Gruen denied ever recanting, but that doesn’t change the fact that he did.

    The real issue to me is this, Julie, if you or I were in adultery, and to cover up our sin we put out a report like Gruen did, caused a world-wide stir, and then later admitted why we did it. And then later we “changed our mind” and started again, the people in our lives would struggle with taking us serious, don’t you think? And after we admitted that we blew things out of proportion, and we had less than righteous motivations, and the ones we attacked repented (Gal 6:1 says that is the issue) do you think our “friends” and lovers of truth would be bringing up any of what we said or did 20 years later? I think not

    It is sad that while proclaiming to desire truth , present company excluded , that they , like the Pharisees of old, are only using “truth” to destroy with no desire to restore, forgive, and love. That isn’t the heart of God.

    A friend of mine had the opportunity a couple of years ago to spend time with a man who accompanied Smith Wigglesworth in his travels. He said that Smith said often, “Love without truth is hypocracy, but truth without love is brutality.”. I add a hearty amen to that!

  225. James,

    This purported recantation has never been produced. Unless and until it sees the light of day, I remain skeptical. The burden of proof as to the veracity of said claim falls on you.

  226. Craig, it was in the paper! I have seen and read it, no I don’t have a copy. Neither do I have copies of most things I have read in the paper 🙂 Gruen’s grandson had a blog for a while. I emailed him and he confirmed that Gruen told him that he recanted and that he had “made things right” with Bickle. If I remember correctly, his grandson even did a stint at IHOP-KC for a while.

  227. James,
    My perspective of what happened back in the late 80’s and early 90’s comes from being an active member of KCF. I ‘belonged’ to the church from the first meeting in 1982. This is just to give you an understanding of where I’m coming from.

    During the 80’s, Mike’s vision for revival, and his approach to obtaining revival, changed many times. These frequent ‘goal post’ changes, so to speak, coupled with difficult to follow and understand prophetic words, and aggressive church takeovers (all via the word of the Lord through these self-styled prophets), left my husband and I quite confused. We, like good Bereans, began to search the scriptures to see if any of these teachings were true, and discovered, for the first time in our walk with the Lord, the Gospel. Understanding the Gospel helped us cut through the deception being promoted at KCF. We shared our understanding of the Gospel with Mike numerous times and he didn’t seem to understand what we were talking about. He didn’t see that what he preached went far beyond what the scriptures said. And, James, the message of the Gospel was absent from Mike’s preaching. It was never preached.

    When Ernie preached his infamous sermon, and wrote his Aberrant Practices document, we had recently just left the church. However, we kept up with what was transpiring as we were hoping for repentance from the leadership.

    The way I see it, James, Mike was forced to withdraw from some of his activities, by John Wimber. The only thing I remember him admitting to was that we had an elite spirit. And, that the prophets, in their immaturity, were making messy mistakes. So, the new rules became that they were only to be available to minister behind the scenes to those in leadership. No more public prophesying and no more prophesying to churches to close their doors and join the ranks of KCF.

    You said:
    “There was problems at MCF – but they were dealt with – in a public manner, Mike, the church and several of the key leaders were disciplined and subsequently restored and released into ministry. Mike has publicly repented and renounced and settled the issues against him and the church. Several of the leaders who were involved in more serious sins were dealt with and removed from ministry.”

    Would you be able to elaborate on this statement? In what way were they disciplined? Since restoration to the ministry, have they fallen back into the same errors that they repented of? Also, what leaders were involved in more serious sins and thereby removed from ministry?

    I don’t ever recall hearing that Ernie Gruen used this information to cover up his own sin. If that was his motivation in exposing this stuff, then I think that’s deplorable. And, as harsh as this may sound, I believe that Ernie’s own sin rightfully separated him from ever being involved in the ministry again. However, as Craig said, unless the newspaper article and other sources can be verified, I remain skeptical as well. I have witnessed, first hand, the deceptions used to keep this particular boat afloat.

    And, today, as far as I can tell, all of these men (excluding Ernie) are back in business. The teachings of a city-wide church, and it’s submission to the new Apostles that had it’s introduction back then, has a larger following than it ever did in 1989. The prophets are still prophesying in earnest. The followings they had back then can’t even compare to what is happening today.

    I realize that you must be friends with Mike, since he wrote the forward to your book. I have nothing but love and concern for not only Mike, but those in his numerous congregations. I, too, just want to know the truth.

  228. Most of Gruen’s allegations were later confirmed by John Wimber. But he is dead too. Regardless of Gruen’s conclusions, the source materials in Gruen’s publication give much insight into the situation at the time. The more pertinent question is where does Bickle stand today, and how do the many versions of the Blueprint prophecy factor into this (Can you edit a prophecy?).
    If, as some would state, Bickle has repented of the charges, and one of those charges was elitism, what do we do with contemporary statements such as this, delivered to gullible youths, “Your pastors are lying to you.”

  229. James,

    You seem to make the charge that Gruen’s motivations for his expose were wrong and imply that we therefore can discredit everything has said, then or since. Back in 1990, Lee Grady (1) pondered that notion:

    “Were Ernie Gruen’s charges motivated by the devil, or by God? Is the accuser of the brethern ar work in this situation, or the spirit of truth?”

    He posited that question to Mike Bickle, and interesting, Bickle does not arrive at the same conclusion that you seem to:

    “I decided to ask Micke Bickle that question. “I absoluitely believe that this was sovereign,” says Bickle. Besides admitting that God is using Gruen’s charges to expose “pride, impatience, and defensiveness” in his own spirit, Bickle outline the major areas the Lord is adjusting at KCF.”

    Based on the contemporaneous testimony of Mike Bickle, I will go with his position that Gruen’s attack was ordained of God and that the charges were legitimate.

    (1) Lee Grady, “Resolving the Kansas City Prophecy Controversy” Ministries Today, Sept/October 1990

  230. “Gruen’s grandson had a blog for a while. I emailed him and he confirmed that Gruen told him that he recanted and that he had “made things right” with Bickle. If I remember correctly, his grandson even did a stint at IHOP-KC for a while.”

    Here is Grant’s blog and it plainly states that Ernie Gruen had NOT recanted.
    http://apollos.wordpress.com/2008/02/02/ernie-gruen/

    The confusion here may arise from the fact (as reported in Charisma in 1993) that Gruen and Bickle reconciled, asked each other for forgiveness, and issued a joint statement. Some may consider that a recantation, Gruen did not. And anyone who understands the definition of recantation would agree. The source materials and charges in Gruen’s document remained legitimate.

  231. I have a new post on Kansas City Fellowship/Metro Vineyard Fellowship. I’m in possession of a “Spring Catalog ’90” with an accompanying ‘discontinued’ list of tapes/video most likely pulled in response to Ernie Gruen’s 233 page “Documentation of Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Ministries)” in which are quotes from tapes and teaching materials from KCF.

    I’ve listed the full contents of the catalog with descriptions along with a request for these tapes for further research. Any help in this endeavor will be appreciated!

    I was not aware that Leonard Ravenhill had attended conferences with the so-called Kansas City Prophets, Bickle, Rick Joyner, Francis Frangipane, etc.

    The post mentions Bickle’s approval of both Cain and Jones as evidenced by a free mp3 download on the IHOP site referring to them as “spiritual fathers”:

    “The two men that have been my spiritual fathers in different ways and at different times — Bob Jones and Paul Cain. When I look over my 30 years plus of walking with the Lord those two men are significantly, clearly I would have to call my spiritual fathers through all these years.”

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/your-assistance-requested-seeking-original-audiovideo-of-kansas-city-fellowshipgrace-ministries

  232. Hey Craig. Thanks for all of your digging…you definitely have a drive for research. I do want to say though that I have come to the point where I believe that the hero worship directed toward leaders such as Bickle defies all attempts to discredit. Their spirituality trumps any inconsistency, failure, aberrant doctrine, or blatant sin that they may have perpetrated.

  233. Nat,

    You may be right to a degree; but, I want stop trying! [see James 5:19-20 and Jude 22-23]

  234. Bill, Gruen apologized to Bickle publicly, it was covered in one of the top Christian magazines, approved by Gruen that he recanted, was wrong and was apologizing. And as you said, later he said that when he recanted, and apologized “he” didn’t consider that a recant. Amazing. I hope that everyone that supports this type of tomfolloery allows me to pull this off if I ever need to (which I won’t). Yes, I am a friend of Mike’s, no I am not a part of IHOP, Mike and all his leadership team are good people. I don’t normally endorse people – but I would personally endorse Mike. He is far from perfect, but I assure you, anyone who knows him (not just listens to a few sound bites) laughs at this blog and its subject matter. I realize the blog will go on, and who knows I might drop in now and then, but I am saddened not in the blog but that people can be so blind about so much. Blessings.

  235. James,

    Gruen apologized for causing any sort of division; however, he did not</b recant. I have the magazine article you are referring to. I’ve recently gained possession of a number of associated documents which will shed light on this whole thing; however, I ‘m still putting together all the data. In fairness and for the sake of completeness, I would like a copy of Bickle’s open letter to the city dated January 22, 1990 which Gruen references in his original document. Would you contact Mike Bickle to see if he still has this on file? You can contact me on my blog in the contact form within the most recent post:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/your-assistance-requested-seeking-original-audiovideo-of-kansas-city-fellowshipgrace-ministries/

  236. Sorry, I didn’t properly close the tag for bolding. Must be time to go to sleep…

  237. James Sheets,

    To help eliminate my confusion, are you also Buddy Sheets?

    You wrote:

    …Yes, I am a friend of Mike’s, no I am not a part of IHOP, Mike and all his leadership team are good people…

    I clicked over to your site and I see that you are part of IHOP Atlanta. Also, at the top left of your page is the IHOP candle with flame logo and at the bottom is “IHOP MISSIONS BASE” with same candle/flame. Wouldn’t that be “a part of IHOP”?

  238. Don’t let me stop you Craig. You keep it up!

  239. Nat,

    I’m waiting for Mr. “I am not a part of IHOP”/Buddy/James Sheets to uncover his real identity as I prefer a dialogue rather than a monologue – not that I don’t mind conversing with you, of course. Maybe Mr. Sheets feels he must remain undercover. Perhaps he and HIDDEN PROPHET should get
    together.

  240. Here’s a little something that seems to be forgotten a lot. The ‘Aberrant Practices’ document was not only issued by Gruen but was also approved by his elders. It was issued jointly; it was not just the work of one man. All were men, all have sinned. Their personal failures are not and never have been the issue. David did not cease to be king and exercise authority over Israel because of Nathan and Bathsheba. The issue has always been, are these assertions found there legitimate? They are and were and Bickle publicly acknowledged it was so. At no time was the documentation ever disavowed or recanted. Mr. Sheets has yet to provide anything beyond an assertion of something ‘in the paper” or ‘top Christian magazines’ from long ago with no reference to back it up. Though why a secular newspaper would cover this I have yet to understand. As the Grady article referenced above states, Bickle found the confrontation legitimate. The problem now is the same as the problem then: Bickle et al get confronted and then keep on doing the same thing. The documentation, if read and compared to current teaching and practice, shows that the tree of IHOP has not strayed from the roots of KCF: a neglect of the gospel of Jesus Christ in favor of a man-centred, manipulative emotionfest.
    I have to agree with Craig, Mr. Sheets. according to my research, Gruen’s fall into sin came way after the ‘Aberrant Practices’ documentation was released, and if only half of the things in it were true, then there’s no way KCF wasn’t guilty of great sin against the church at large in both doctrine and practice that was promoted. You, Mr. Sheets, seem to not realise that I’ve read the document in its entirety- twice- and it’s nothing less than a collection of testimonies of those affected and quotes from KCF’s own teaching material. To say that Gruen’s sin makes that all null and void is the same as saying a library has no information if the librarian isn’t morally upright. All Gruen and his associates did was collect what was already present and tell it like it was. And unfortunately it still is that way.
    It’s also easy to try to blast a dead man who can’t speak to defend himself. Fortunately we have the documentation and the grandson’s blog. The grandson has left IHOP and will have nothing to do with it; trying to use him as an endorsement is disingenuous at best. You also may want to look up the definition of ‘recant’ before you keep applying it to Gruen’s behavior.
    I’m still interested in how you’re a part and not a part of IHOP at the same time.

  241. Scottie

    I think what he means is this:

    “Buddy Sheets

    October 10, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    I am the director of the Atlanta South Metro House of Prayer in Stockbridge Ga. We are a city-wide house of prayer, but we are not an IHOP nor or we associated with IHOP in any official capacity.

    However, I did live in Kansas City for three months in 2002 and visited IHOP. I have several friends who are in leadership positions at IHOP.”

  242. Craig, I am not a part of IHOP. I am friends with the Atlanta IHOP’s director (I knew him before he was involved with IHOP. I am also friends with his Associate Director, who was an eldert in our church as well as one of the worship leaders. When IHOP-Atlanta first started they didn’t have enough worship leaders/musicians to staff all of their prayer meetings. Because I of my past relationships with them, they asked if I could help out temporarily, until they could “beef up”. I took a team from our HOP to fill in as needed for a year and a half.

    This isn’t unusual. I fill in, and help out, churches and ministries all over because that is what followers of Jesus do, isn’t it?

  243. James/Buddy,

    Given that you claim you are not “associated with IHOP in any official capacity” then why does your Passion For Jesus site contain the IHOP icon/logo at top and “IHOP MISSIONS BASE” at the bottom? To me, this would logically imply an affiliation.

    As a contrast and point of comparison, on the CrossWise site I list the Grey Coats on my blogroll. Given that, one would not necessarily assume we are affiliated (we’re not); however, if I had their header pasted somewhere on my own site one could or, more likely, would assume affiliation. Now, if you had something like “I support…” or “I’m a friend of…” then a reader would understand your relationship/affiliation.

    Could you explain why you have the IHOP icon/logo and “IHOP MISSION BASE” on your site?

    Craig (author of CrossWise blog)

  244. Craig< I am the director of Passion for Jesus Ministries and the co-founder and co-director (with my beautiful wife, Dr Kaye Sheets) of the Atlanta South Metro House of Prayer (ASMHOP). We are a city-wide, interdenominational house of prayer.

    I have known Mike since our Vineyard days. I had not seen Mike but at occasional conferences (not his, we were just both in attendance at other conferences outside of KC). We had started ASMHOP when a visitor to one of our prayer meetings asked me after the meeting if I knew Mike Bickle. I acknowledged that I did.

    They then remarked that they thought I might because we had the same type prayer meetings that he did. I laughed and said no we don't do them like Mike does. They insisted that we did. I asked, "How does Mike do them?" They replied, "Prayer with worship together."

    Well, I knew Mike did intercession but not with worship. So I contacted them and low and behold Mike was doing the IHOP thing with worship and prayer together (I didn't even know IHOP existed – it had been several years since I had seen Mike – this was in 2000)

    I flew out to KC to check out what was going on at IHOP. They started in1999 we totally independent of each other started in 1997.I was a worship leader, an intercessor and I move in the prophetic so to me it was a natural mix for us to mix them together for I was all three. We had never seen or heard of anyone who did anything like we were doing – we just just went where the Lord was taking us.

    As I said in an earlier post, I am friends with Mike, I am friends with Billy (director of IHOP-Atlanta). They are houses of prayer – so are we. Both of them are Mission Bases, we are not. There is no IHOP affiliation, no governmental structure. We are friends doing what God has called everyone to do – follow Jesus and pray. I support IHOP, I support prayer furnaces, I support boiler rooms, I support every prayer ministry I can find. I don't have their banners – I have links to other prayer ministry and only use the icon as a link.

    If you visit around the web you will find thousands and thousands of web sites that provide links to other sites without having no formal or informal connection with the sites they are providing links to. To the pure all things are pure, to the impure all things are impure. If you are looking for a fight you can always come up with one. But if you seek the Kingdom of God, you get to see the will of God being done on the earth.

    Craig you are fighting a battle that isn't yours to fight. You don't even know the participants. In seminary we used an example called the gossip game. You get 20 or 30 people in a circle, one whispers something to the person beside him. By the time it goes around the room it doesn't EVEN resemble reality. Do not be deceived , my friend, the devil is the accuser of the brethren, you are speaking of that you do not know. And it is not God.

    Blessings,

    James (Buddy) Sheets
    Author of The Love Language of God

  245. James (Buddy) Sheets,

    You wrote, “I don’t have their banners – I have links to other prayer ministry and only use the icon as a link.” I clicked on the icon at the top of your page and it went right back to your home page. I clicked on “IHOP MISSIONS BASE” and it went nowhere — I was still at your home page. Am I missing the point somehow?

    You wrote, “Craig you are fighting a battle that isn’t yours to fight. You don’t even know the participants. ” I’m not exactly sure what battle you believe it is I’m fighting which isn’t mine to fight; but, I’d be grateful if you could enlighten me to both the particular battle and the participants.

    Once I finish my next posts (it will have to be in multiple parts as it’s just too long for one), you may find them of interest. The subject will be Gruen, Paul Cain, Wimber, and Bickle. In fact, given your friendship with Mike Bickle you could help me out as I’m still looking for the open letter of Bickle’s from January 22 (or 29), 1990 in response to Gruen’s January 21 sermon. Would you contact Mike to see if he still has this on file? All I have presently are two different articles which quote portions of it. If you obtain a copy you can contact me on my blog in the contact form within the most recent post:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/your-assistance-requested-seeking-original-audiovideo-of-kansas-city-fellowshipgrace-ministries/

    Thanks.

  246. Me personally, I’d just like to see evidence one way or another, not smarmy or self-righteous accusations.
    We are one in the bond of peace.
    Do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature, rather, serve one another in love. If you keep on biting and devouring one another, watch out, or you may be destroyed by each other.

  247. Part II is now online:

    In Exonerating Paul Cain, Is the ‘Aberrant Practices’ Document Negated?

    While discussing the Cain concessions, Wimber, Deere, and Bickle are discussed along the way along as well as the “earthquake prophecy” and “drought prophecy.”

    If Cain were to have remained discredited in the Gruen Document, this could cast further doubt on the legitimacy of Cain’s “earthquake prophecy” which would in turn cast a long shadow on the Vineyard in general as it was Cain’s message which validated the Vineyard involvement in the “prophetic movement” in the first place. With stakes this high, the pressure to discredit the Gruen Document and to exonerate Cain must have been enormous.

    James (Buddy): Is this the letter you saw?

  248. Yes and no 🙂 I am familiar with this letter, but there was also the public apology letter by Ernie as well. And second hand information from the persons involved (people who I have found to be people of integrity).

    As to the two part summary of the incidents related, I am disappointed. A lot of “ifs” and “Maybes” that can only have been included to cast doubt. As a minister, an author and a communicator, no legitimate inquiry would include such material. Straw men are set up for a purpose and with a motive.

    Craig, you can contact me at my email address and we can schedule a time to talk personally. But I will not use this vehicle as it could be construed as my granting legitimacy to the things purported.

  249. James (Buddy),

    A lot of “ifs” and “Maybes” that can only have been included to cast doubt. As a minister, an author and a communicator, no legitimate inquiry would include such material. Straw men are set up for a purpose and with a motive.

    First, I prefer to keep things out in the open; so, at present, I’ll pass on your request to talk off the blogs. I may consider at some point later. However, I may be dense, but I don’t understand how your responses here can be construed as your “granting legitimacy to the things purported.”

    You’ve made a pretty serious charge re: the “ifs” and “maybes” & “straw men.” Without clogging up the comments here, I believe we’d both be better served if any discussion would be on my blog where the articles originated. This will save both you and me and any readers from going back and forth.

    So, since you’ve made the charges, I ask you to identify at least one straw man I’ve set up. I’ve quoted from legitimate sources including Charisma, Ministries Today, Bill Jackson’s Quest for the Radical Middle which is a decidedly pro-Vineyard book as a history of the Vineyard, Wimber’s own works, Deere’s own works (including one on Zondervan) and James A. Beverley’s book Holy Laughter & the Toronto Blessing (also on Zondervan). You may not care for the information presented, but I have documentation to back up the material.

  250. James (Buddy):

    In the July ’93 Charisma article “Kansas City Churches Reconciled,” Grady reports:

    But Bickle and Gruen had little correspondence with each other for three years, even after changes were made at Metro Vineyard. The relationship between the two congregations was “very strained,” Bickle told Charisma. Gruen agreed, adding that the dispute “rent the body of Christ in this city into two isolated camps.”

    After the men asked for forgiveness, they shared the news with their staffs and later read the joint statement in their churches. “Both congregations broke out in spontaneous applause,” Gruen said, “The sheep were waiting for the shepherds to model love, unity and forgiveness.”

    I don’t call that a recanting.

    This magazine also includes the Gruen resignation of May 24 – again, 1993 – after filing for divorce which immediately following the Bickle/Gruen mutual forgiveness. Gruen and his wife were later reconciled as the September 1995 Charisma [pp 32, 34] affirms. This later article, titled “Kansas City Churches Mend Rift,” (J. Lee Grady) is a reconciliation of Gruen’s former Full Faith and Love (post-resignation of Gruen) and Bickle’s Metro Vineyard Fellowship “that ended a dispute that has divided charismatics in greater Kansas City for more than five years.” Hal Linhardt was (is?) pastor of FFL at the time.

    The article stated, “…Relations between Metro Vineyard and the Full Faith churches remained chilly, however. Although Bickle and Gruen issued a joint statement of forgiveness in 1993.

    There was a joint statement (I have a copy) in ’95 between Linhardt and Bickle:

    ”There were some serious questions about doctrine, about ethics and about accountability in the use of the prophetic gifts [at Metro Vineyard],” Linhardt said. “All those issues have been resolved.”

    Looking back on five painful years, Bickle told Charisma that he still maintains that most of Gruen’s accusations were untrue.

    However, God was disciplining us for pride and some wrong ideas,” Bickle said. “If it hadn’t been Ernie Gruen, God would have used someone else. The message wouldn’t have gotten through to us if it had been kind. It had to be rough. We were wrong.”

  251. Above, the:

    “There was a joint statement (I have a copy) in ’95 between Linhardt and Bickle:”

    was not meant to be italicized as this was my own statement.

  252. James (Buddy) Sheets, you wrote @ September 14 7:06am: “…Gruen apologized to Bickle publicly, it was covered in one of the top Christian magazines, approved by Gruen that he recanted, was wrong and was apologizing

    I do believe you may be confused by the misreporting of a Charisma article from the September 1990 issue titled “Truce Called in Bickle Controversy.” I make reference to this in the first part of the article under the June 28 entry in the timeline referring to it as “not unbiased.” In the accompanying footnote is the following:

    …the author states Gruen “acknowledged that he had no authority to question or examine the validity of KCF’s teachings and practices” which is misleading. The July 1, 1990 letter which came about as a result of this June 28 meeting stated, “We recognize that it is not now our responsibility to provide either correction or approval of Kansas City Fellowship” because Gruen and staff had released “the entire situation” into Wimber’s hands while noting that the issue is actually “in God’s hands.” [emphasis added]

    This was not a recanting; it was a release of the situation to Wimber/Vineyard who promised to clean things up. The Gruen July 1, 1990 letter starts out affirming, “We still believe our documentation of the aberrant practices and teachings of Kansas City Fellowship is essentially accurate. However, after reviewing it page by page with you and your staff, it is obvious that there are points that could be disputed and argued about…”

    Your contention about Gruen categorically recanting is false. It is incumbent upon you to concede and apologize publicly here or to provide proof to the contrary.

  253. Craig, the apology was both a public one and a private one. The proof for the public that you refuse to see, was in the KC paper, and alluded to in the letter you referenced, (which wasn’t the only one).
    Remember, I know all of the participants, from the Vineyard, from the magazines, the books you referenced, and Jamie Buckingham (whom I miss greatly). The only person that I do not know is Gruen. Everyone involved says the same thing “today”, but you. Many of them were there when it happened.

    It appears you guys have a chip, an agenda, whatever you might want to call it, a cause!. Regardless you are spending time and effort to prove some nebulous thing from 20+ years ago, when you could be involved in what God is doing today. Bad choice in my opinion.

    God doesn’t dwell or remind us of our past – only the accuser does. Jesus said that the standard we use to evaluate others is the same standard He will use to judge us – through other people, while we are on earth. To all that are reading this, I asked to speak with with Craig , he refused, not the stance a lover of truth, or a lover of God’s people would do. Beware the poison in this blog is opening yourselves up to the attacks of the enemy. Be very, very careful.

    Blessings

  254. James,

    Once again, an apology is not a recanting.

    So, if we were to take your word for it, then we would have to accept that Grady in the ’93 and ’95 Charisma articles is either mistaken or a liar [see comment at Oct 18, 1:52pm] since he maintains that there was friction between Bickle/MVF and Gruen. If so, certainly there would be some sort of Charisma correction regarding this matter.

    Your refusal to provide any sort of proof for your contention does not bode well. I don’t expect you to take my word for anything and I will not accept yours. My articles have other definitive sources for backup. Where’s yours?

    My reasons for bringing all this up is to expose the faulty foundation upon which KCF/IHOP was founded as well as the Vineyard with respect to their involvement in the ‘prophetic movement.’

    Your ad hominem attacks are as tiring as they are obvious.

    You wrote: ”To all that are reading this, I asked to speak with with Craig , he refused, not the stance a lover of truth, or a lover of God’s people would do.”

    Anything you wish to communicate to me should be done right out here in public, and you are more than welcome to do so. I welcome you to post on the CrossWise blog.

    Since you know all these individuals then you should have no problem with the sources I’ve used. If you think I’ve taken anything out of context, I’m ‘all ears.’

    James, it seems you are the one with the agenda. You are the one claiming Gruen recanted in full with no proof of your own to back up your claims and despite proof to the contrary. You are the one who is making charges against the content of my articles yet refuse to backup your statements with specifics.

    And, the old “accuser of the brethren” charge is overused. It is also what is called Loaded Language.

  255. James, you wrote: “God doesn’t dwell or remind us of our past – only the accuser does…” and you also wrote earlier, “…the devil is the accuser of the brethren…”

    Do you not see your own hypocrisy?

  256. Sorry, Loaded Language article did not post correctly; so let’s try again:

    The Use of Loaded Language in Hyper-Charismaticism

  257. James (Buddy) Sheets,

    Bill Fawcett over at the Beyond Grace blog has a few articles exposing historical revisionism with respect to certain statements and “prophecies.” This is not unlike the evolving “drought prophecy” which I discuss in detail in the 2nd part of the most recent two-part article. Should God’s prophecies be changed over time? That’s a rhetorical question.

    The reason I bring this up is this shows a lack of credibility/integrity from the IHOP camp.

    Here are a few of Bill’s recent posts:

    “How the “White Horse prophecy” keeps the followers from questioning anything.”:

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2011/08/mike-bickle-innoculation-of-sheep.html

    How Pat Bickle was written out of the “White Horse prophecy”:

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2011/08/mike-bickle-white-horse-prophecy.html

    How the “White Horse prophecy” changed in David Pytches’ book Some Said it Thundered from the 1st edition to the 2nd after receiving ‘corrections’ from Bickle/Wimber after Pytches initially transcribed these from KCF’s own tapes [see “Acknowledgements” in the beginning of either/both of Pytches’s books]:

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2011/09/david-pytches-some-said-it-thundered.html

    Changing words seemingly in order to be “PC” with no repentance or statement that these were initially recorded wrong, etc:

    http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2011/09/mike-bickle-and-ihop-depths-of.html

  258. IF the past is forgiven and repented of, there’s nothing to be reminded about. However, if it’s not…

  259. Pingback: IHOP’s dangerous heresies entering EFC-ER and Malone University via MUHOP « Christians United Against Apostasy

  260. Keith J. Ratzken

    None of the links to the Ernie report work. I would like to read it but I cant.

  261. Keith J. Ratzken

    Never mind I found it.

  262. Byron Wilson

    I read the the articles from Ernie Gruen and other’s and they are correct. Most people who get fooled into these things don’t read the bible and interpret the Word of God thru some mans view on it…the most common thing I hear or have hear is this “what this means is”..when really the word means what it says period…like for example when John was taken up to heaven in Revelation 4:1After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter….A lot of preachers say well this means the rapture is happening before the tribulation….it means what it says…read the bible period. we also have an unction from the Holy One and we know all things…1 john 2:20…I consider myself a Greycoat….

  263. O.K. Byron…grey it up bro.

  264. kh

    How do I contact the authors of this blog?

  265. Buddy Sheets

    kh, Good luck! I have attempted to communicate with the authors several times. They appear to want to set up straw men, and they can only do that my having a one sided conversation – even though it is on a public forum, they stack the deck so there is no accountability – induced mass hysteria doesn’t equate righteousness.

    Blessings

  266. @ Buddy Sheets,

    LOL!

    I’m not one of the authors on this blog; but I’ve offered you to contact me on my own blog. To date, I’ve not heard from you.

    Anyway, recently I noticed an addition on IHOP’s “affirmations & Denials” page: they’ve added the signed Gruen/Bickle statement:

    http://www.ihop.org/about/files/2011/07/Ernie-GruenMike-Bickle-Joint-Statement-of-Forgiveness-May-16-1993.pdf

    Just like the Grady article from ’93 states, it’s mutual forgiveness It’s not a recanting. I find it interesting this surfaces only now, after Gruen’s departure to be with the Lord.

  267. I am an author of this blog and don’t remember you beating down my door Mr. Sheets. However, If you or kh would like to contact me please feel free at natrimony@yahoo.com.

  268. adam

    After 7 years of being part of the IHOP community, but not on staff, I can say that it has its weaknesses, yet at the end of the day its primary function should be encouraged. A building dedicated to worship 24/7, with intent to heal, encourage and reach out to those who need restoration and salvation.

    The Ernie Gruen story I personally feel is either really is a lie, or the fruit of blurry information passed through too many hands. I feel the mutual forgiveness was transformed into a lie by outsiders. I think they agreed to disagree, but forgave eachother.

    If Mike or other leadership have been lying or using bad information to justify the aberrant practices, they’ll be judged for it. I think there is no danger in being involved with IHOP itself. And by involved I mean sitting down, shutting up, picking up the bible, and really challenging the Lord with your own life. I know you can do it in your living room, but life happens and its a great place to have when you’re going through a rough patch.

    I do know that God used this place for my own personal journey with Him, and the teachings of IHOP haven’t negatively affected me. I don’t bounce off the walls, I don’t chase prophecies, I don’t babble in ‘tongues’ I just know at the end of the day, God will say “enough is enough” and Jesus will return. That to me, is the hope of glory, not the church seeing signs and wonders, though some people may need them, I’m grateful to be rooted in the bigger picture, and it keeps me steady.

  269. WoundedbyProphetic

    Hello! I am a 50-something year old missionary who has been around the so-called prophetic movement since the early 1990s. I can attest that there are countless abuses throughout this movement. I have witnessed much of it firsthand. Here are just a few examples:

    (1) Somewhere around 1996 or 1997, we attended a 2-day gathering in Ft. Worth, held at a large church with an enormous auditorium. It featured Paul Cain and Mahesh Chavda, among many others. The place was packed. Every session, people would push and shove to try and get seats in the front rows. They were like desperate groupies.

    (2) When Mahesh Chavda was preaching, he told a story about healing a woman who was ill. She happened to also have large breasts. He said that he saw her some time later, and she was so grateful that she hugged him to her bosom for a long time. He said he couldn’t breathe, but “What a way to die!” Everyone at the conference laughed for a long time.

    (3) I met Mahesh’s wife, Bonnie, in the lobby. I was in a spiritually dry place, but was very thirsty for God. I asked her if she would pray for me, and see if God had any word for me. She laid hands on me and said a lot of vague things, like, “God is so pleased with your devoted, diligent prayer life.” (That year I had been in a deep spiritual depression and was hardly praying at all. Usually I pray all the time throughout the day, but have never had a prayer life that could be described as diligent.) “Your faithful worship is like a fragrant aroma to Him.” blah blah

    (4) Scripture says that the fruit of the Spirit is “Love, joy, peace…” But many, many of the leaders of the movement are just downright rude, and don’t seem to exude any joy at all. My husband, who is godly, intelligent, very humble, and polite, ate dinner once with a VERY famous prophetic leader (you would know his name instantly if I shared it). The so-called prophetic guy was very cold, insufferably full of himself the entire time. At the end of the dinner, he stood up and abruptly handed my husband his business card and basically said, “You really need to grow spiritually. You should get my tapes.” Then, without saying good bye, he just turned and walked away. Is that the kind of behavior we should expect from someone who is supposedly full of God’s own spirit?

    A cousin of mine, Nate, works in Branson, MO. It is a big tourist and convention place, like Vegas but without the sin & casinos. Nate works at a hotel and gets to meet all the big-name speakers who arrive. He says they are all rude and cold, and treat him like a peon. The only exception to this, he says, was Billy Graham, who was very kind and warm to him.

    (5) Nate also witnessed a fraudulent “healer” at a meeting who was supposed to be healing a blind man. Trouble is, Nate saw the “blind” man checking in to the hotel that afternoon…not blind at all. Nate confronted the man, who turned and walked away.

    (6) At various times in our 20-year ministry, different “prophets” have “spoken into” my husband’s life. They always promise huge things — you will speak in packed stadiums, you will lead thousands to the Lord, you will have an international ministry, etc. My husband used to fall for that stuff and at first it really encouraged him. Now, however, none of that has come true…so instead, it deeply discourages him. It makes him feel like a failure, or that somehow he has “missed” God’s leading or provision. We do have a good ministry and God has used my wonderful husband to change many people’s lives for the Lord. But he struggles with feeling like he has somehow failed. I blame the so-called prophetic people for giving him false hopes.

  270. Nathaniel Ruland

    Adam, That sounds pretty sane to me. I wish you well.

  271. Thank you Adam for a voice of sanity!

  272. Here is the joint letter that Gruen and Bickle (and their respective churches) published in the Kansas City paper and released all of the churches that Gruen had sent his earlier report to. What is interesting to me is the fact that the ones who sided earlier with Gruen, when they received this contacted Grues about resending the recension – when he wouldn’t do it – the ones who supported him earlier turned on him like they did on Mike. Shows to go ya that people who are interested in fighting for “truth” more than finding out what the truth is and then actually living it out don’t care about truth at all – only in enjoying the fight. LOL!

  273. Ernie Gruen and Mike Bickle’s Joint Statement from 1993

    May 16, 1993

    This is a joint statement from the leadership of Full Faith Church of Love Ministries and Metro Vineyard Fellowship of Kansas City.

    Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons . . . For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.

    —1 Corinthians 12:4-6, 12 (NASV)

    Ernie Gruen and Mike Bickle have forgiven each other of all offenses. Their senior leadership has come together in a spirit of forgiveness; we also ask the Body of Christ to forgive us of any offenses that we have caused the Church universal. We feel it is time to bring to a close the events of the past. We believe it is time to go on and to seek to heal past wounds. We want to publicly lay down any personal animosities, wounds, or misunderstandings between the two churches. Under the Lordship of Jesus Christ as one Body, we want to be joined and knit together in His love, “being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Eph. 4:3, NASV). We desire the Body of Christ represented by our churches to flow together in the love and mercy of God and begin to rebuild relationships and friendships.

    Ernest J. Gruen

    Mike Bickle

  274. Buddy,

    Yes, I’ve seen this letter as it’s been posted on the IHOP site for awhile now. However, while this express mutual forgiveness and asks the church at large to forgive, I don’t see as a recanting of the contents of the Gruen Document. The language as a bit ambiguous for that conclusion.

  275. Actually, I see that I posted a link to it back on May 23rd.

  276. “But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not —to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.” 1 Cor. 1:27-29.

    As a practicing journalist, former staunch-atheist-turned-Christian, I have witnessed first-hand the supernatural events that come with praying and fasting together for revelation. It took every ounce of weak faith I had, to ask God if he was real and hear him speak so I would believe. I had to leave every preconception or pretension about everything to find the truth. This is my prayer for every believer who encounters IHOP or any situation in life – keep an open mind, one solely dependent on God’s mysterious-working power for understanding.

    My own experience moving through IHOP during a Onething conference was life-changing, one of personal encounter with the limitless power of God. Do not be convinced that He cannot use IHOP or those who intersect there – it was not uncommon for me or my friends to approach and be approached by those through whom God predestined a healing or revelation to occur; to provide answers to questions you were praying and fasting for all day/week/year; to bear a burden because you overcame/gained authority over those same powers of darkness. There is a specific assignment for us, but sometimes it takes being in chance environments to walk them out (in abandoned trust in God’s power, especially a body in agreement). We should be expectant of that instead of stifling the Spirit with a fleshly mind.

    I had visions and dreams during that conference (new to me), about answers to questions or the futures of my roommates or my own future. I didn’t know these guys, but they confirmed every detail was true. My faith is not based on these experiences, and neither are IHOPers. They may not be “Bible taught more than Spirit taught,” but believe in Him more than the mind would feel comfortable doing, freed by the Spirit whose boundaries we cannot fathom. They experience God very personally and love him very personally, not as a distant and old story but a very present and alive friend.

    We are an adulterous generation to seek a sign that confirms what we think is the only truth – our gods, praises of self and men – rather than fall on our knees in obedience to the Bridegroom who seeks a worthy bride, an ongoing love affair which this generation is beginning to fulfill, and IHOP has unquestionably been a leader in that.

  277. I really love your blog.. Very nice colors & theme. Did you create this website yourself?
    Please reply back as I’m wanting to create my own website and would love to find out where you got this from or just what the theme is called. Cheers!

  278. Thanks! It’s a blogspot…a free blogging service from Google. I did create it myself. But I personalized it by going into the HTML and changing the margin widths and foreground/background colors. There may be a template right for you to start out with. My logo was made through a trial of Photoshop. 🙂

  279. #kcfalseprophets
    shawn
    Biography
    I support the movement known as “Anonymous”.
    My goal is to expose the false prophets of the Kansas City Evangelical Christian movement.
    Why? I grew up in a cult/neighborhood church in the late 80′s. The men (false prophets) of the church are all but ONE dead; unfortunately the remaining member of “kansas city fellowship” has started another cult, and it is big million dollar big(a year).
    This “church” called Ihop (not the pancake house) the International House Of Prayer or their new one kc forerunner fellowship.
    Why not just leave them alone? I cant.
    The key word here is “International”
    This is how the founder and current pastor M.B. funds this Doomsday cult of martyr’s.
    90% of the members are in their twenties, and they think their training to be missionaries, but the “end times” have been prophesied by the pastor.
    Fear, immigrant small business loans, lies and religious visas are the tools of the new face of Christianity. This movement has roots in almost every church in America. Know a false prophet? You can trace him back to “Kansas City Prophets”
    Now for the good parts, Number one sign of a cult- Isolationism, the members have been instructed to unplug all media outlets(maybe the 500, 000 post on Google haunt him, but he doesn’t have to worry.
    This is how it works, he calls his church a missions school, so internationally anybody can get a religious visa from almost any country as long as they have an institute to accept them (IHOP) then when they arrive here usually with nothing but belief until M.B. helps them all get the small business loan for their new business “A Missionary”
    Conveniently a semester of bible thumping cost the same amount as the basic loan, once they give it to the church there broke hungry and immobile so they have to rely on the church. This is how over 50, 000 young adults are living right now right here.
    They are also linked to “The Promise Keepers” I know it was once a simple movement with a good promise, all men called to treat their families better, now they have 500, 000 men that don’t know the promise has changed.
    Promise Keepers is now basically “IHOPS” personal sleeper cell.
    Why should you care? This man “Mike Bikle” will unite his forerunners(martyr’s) will Islamic Jihad and bring it to our shores.
    He is trying to force the sky open and bring “armagedon” in nuclear war only the 1% survive.
    I don’t hate God or Christians, but I knew this man was a fraud since I was 10.
    This cult is very dangerous if you Google it you’ll see, if you go to their service which I recommend, you will find great rock music 24 hour “Healing Rooms” but please don’t drink the kool-aid just listen. We need to expose this man to his followers, one thing young adults cant do is turn of their smartphone so twitter could stop a war, one that nobody but jihadist are talking about, until 1999 when he had his 10th vision in 10 years. He sees himself as the right hand of Jesus and possesses “The Holy Gost”
    We must stop this please Google this and read about the families turned and destroyed, mothers posting on Google about their child no longer caring about them and feeling superior.
    Ihop members, this is to YOU, I know Bikle better than anyone in that church and he will lead you to death not the rapture.
    its in Grandview MO 2 miles west of 71 off red bridge rode its on a hill on the left in a strip mall, don’t be fooled they own 3 square miles of Grandview and used criminal tactics to buy out all the nearby businesses.
    It was allegedly a vision of the physical manifestation of Christ who gave him the Idea, that’s a lie it wasn’t his idea. The real missionaries I knew left in 1988 because of this, they went to Guatemala built a school and hospital all from donations and the’re still there and still poor and still good people.
    This man caused the end of my church when I was 11 then I was thrown into larger cults, then I rebelled HARD. The one Pastor that ousted him died in 2009 his name was Ernie Gruen, but he was a smart man, he wrote an in depth report titled “the abbreverant practices of KC Fellowship”.
    His son is still standing up for his dad.
    I intend to start where Ernie Gruen left off
    Twitter Username
    @shawn35null
    below is a video about mike bikles current open vision for America.
    YOU DECIDE
    nullacide.tumblr.com

  280. Amazing. Here we are, 4 years after this particular post began, and IHOP has only become worse. We not only have the baby Jeremiah Chandler’s death, but now we also have the murder of Bethany Deaton. BOTH of these, “NOT A PART OF IHOP!!!!”, per Mike Bickle and Allen Hood. BUT they were, gentlemen – they most certainly were.

    INTERNS at IHOP: What’s it going to take to get you to wake up and smell the coffee? Is it going to take one of YOUR close friends dying? What other ‘terrible tragedy’ will occur, with Mike and Allen again saying the people weren’t a part of IHOP, for you to SEE that they were?!!?

    To the students and IHOP TEACHERS: Please pray about getting out of there.

    When IHOP crumbles, and it will, you don’t want to be associated with it. Besides that, Teachers, your very presence there, causes the young people to believe it’s all “OK” and you KNOW the Holy Spirit has pricked your heart telling you something’s wrong. You know He has.

  281. Forgot one other thing: Mike Bickle says (in the above YouTube video) “The trumpet is the rallying cry to gather at the House of Prayer” — speaking about a vision he says he had — It really struck me that this guy is totally FULL of himself!

    Mike Bickle: Back that vision up with some scripture, will you please?

    People, check out Acts 17: 10-11. Do not be deceived. Do NOT be deceived.

  282. Annunk,
    Let me encourage you not to get caught up in the Christless theologizing that so many are involved in.

    Bad things happen to good people everyday. Those who don’t know God, His heart or His ways question because of it. It is the natural thing to do but it isn’t the right thing to do. During Jesus’ earthly ministry people came to Jesus after a tragedy and asked why and what about. What was Jesus’ wisdom on the subject?

    “There were some present at that very time who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And He answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”” (Luke 13:1–5)

    And again,

    “so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.” (Matthew 5:45)

    Is it possible that bad things happening is a result of “bad” living or “bad”, or incomplete doctrine (less than total understanding of Scripture)? Sure, it is possible. But if God were killing believers with sin in their lives there would be lots of empty real estate available wouldn’t there? I I bet that neither you nor I nor any of the good folk who sadistically hang out at this site would be the exception to that. Come on now!

    I have a theology degree and love the Word of God and study long hours, not because I have to, but because I love “Him” and I love His Word. But there are dozens of visions/dreams in the Bible that weren’t “Biblical” at the time people had them.

    IHOP has a theology of God speaking through dreams and visions, speaking outside the Bible but never in contradiction to the Bible. So did Joseph, Peter, Paul and believers throughout the Church age. We in retrospect, love to quote what Holy Spirit showed Peter through a vision – that “we” the gentiles could now be saved. We love tghat because it is in the book. But when it happened, it wasn’t in the book. And the religious talking heads resisted it (like they still do!). Thankfully, they adapted the biblical theological views to accept (what was at that time) extra-biblical revelation so we can be saved.We need to grow up as believers, don’t we?

    Blessings,

    James

  283. James,

    You wrote, “IHOP has a theology of God speaking through dreams and visions, speaking outside the Bible but never in contradiction to the Bible…

    Au contraire.

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2012/11/13/the-sandy-foundation-of-the-international-house-of-prayer-ihop/

    One of IHOP’s foundational “prophecies” contradicted both God, and, hence the Bible, as well as actual weather. As to the former (contradicting God), attributing a prophecy as being “of God” when it turns out to be proven false; as to the latter (weather), the initial claim (among other things) was a starting date of the beginning of June for a drought in which actual weather data indicates an unusually wet June (1983). Not to be deterred, Bickle alters the “prophecy” to more closely align with actual weather.

    This is known as historical revisionism. Oh yeah, and false prophecy.

  284. IWTT

    I have a theology degree and love the Word of God and study long hours, not because I have to, but because I love “Him” and I love His Word.

    From where?

  285. Drew

    Just a question. Have you ever thought of seeking out Mike Bickle for his response or IHOP for a comment from them on the matter? I may have missed something, but to me this all seems quite one-sided in the research, not to mention virulent.

  286. IWTT

    @Drew
    Seriously, you don’t think that these people haven’t made that attempt in the past? This topic is as old as it can be. All have been contacted in some form or manner about this topic and people HAVE responded. I would suggest that you read further, not only this site and see that they have been contacted and that there have been responses as well on other sites. Please know, this is not a new subject. I man really, 299 responses dating back to 2008.

  287. Micah

    man reading shawn’s statements was an interesting point of view. hi im a student at IHOP-U, and no one has replied to my questions on the ask away thread for 2 months so… i come here

    the whole business loans thing. thats just straight faulty. i know. im close friends with several of the international students here.

    as for prophesying “doomsday”… well that depends on your personal beliefs of the Book of Revelation. ive heard many people say its all metaphorical. Some believe its literal, mike bickel being one of those people. before Jesus returns there must be seals, trumpets, and bowls. thats not mike bickle prophesying thats the Bible. when its going to happen is where the debate is at.

    as for islam, and jihad uniting with ihop, thats atrocious and a little funny.
    http://www.ihopkc.org/about/statement-of-faith/ clearly Christian. which by nature excludes islam.

    as for 50,000 young people… wrong again. if you look at the “announcements” paper handed out at every service it tells you how many people are a part of Ihop. solid numbers. more like 2500.

    “members, this is to YOU, I know Bikle better than anyone in that church and he will lead you to death not the rapture.”
    ignorance was displayed here. Mike Bickle actually stands against the pre-tribulation rapture as displayed in movies like left behind. once again, the statements of faith. (paragraph 8)

    then you use “rock music” as an attack. wow. is that supposed to mean something? so now all of Hillsong, Bethel, Chris Tomlin, and every other modern christian musician who uses drums in their music is part of a cult and worth being attacked…

    the healing rooms are not open 24/7. and just to remove the mystery: you volunteer to go into a side room with glass see through doors and tell people what you would like to be prayed for, then they pray for you.

    then exiling your family and acting superior is not a representation of the sermon on the mount lifestyle. Matthew 5. you’re right on that one. its funny and true. pride swells up, love builds up. were all flawed, doesnt make us cult members

    clearly an uneducated rant, or as i find more often than not a “conservative denomination” member who gets gossip and treats it as fact.

    In Christ alone
    -micah

  288. Drew

    Wow thanks Micah, we finally has some neutrality to this thread. I’m not even a part of IHOP and have read this just out of curiosity, but just hate seeing brothers wasting their time tearing down other brothers in the same body of Christ. Thanks for your bravery, and i won’t be surprised if all you get in response is rage and gnashing of teeth.

    And IWTT, all you did was beat around the bush. I still would like to see if Mike has been given any chance by Grey Coats to comment on the matter.

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  291. Um Drew better late than never. Yes we did give many chances for comment and got Zero response save from our good buddy Zach Hensley . you should probly read up the thread a mile or so and see for yourself. it is a loooong thread nowadays and over 5 years old but still good.

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  294. David Houchins

    Click on this link and open the PDF document entitled “joint statement” and at look at the signatures. Mke & Ernie both signed it. The end!

    http://www.ihopkc.org/about/affirmations-and-denials/

  295. Dave

    Material covered years ago, on posts above, if you, David Houtchins, had bothered to read them and do thorough research. Ernie signed it because John Wimber said he’d oversee their restoration, which he was unable to do because KCF would not really submit to his direction. It disavows nothing in the report; if you read the language carefully, it’s an attempt to do the right thing as far as reconciliation, but unfortunately KCF continued to propagate the lies and errors of their past in many ways, which they still do to this day. The necessity of granting forgiveness implies wrongdoing. Perhaps FFCOL should have convened a broad spectrum of leadership privately to address things before going public with their report. In hindsight, that’s the only thing I can see them handling improperly. If you actually read the report, you’d see why it was written. Another example of tKCF/IHOP paying lip service to the truth just long enough to quell controversy, and then doing whatever they want afterward. It can’t be called ‘the end’ when one party continues in sin.

  296. David Houchins,

    May of ’93 is about the time that Gruen had initially filed for divorce from his wife (the two reconciled) and there was a “reconciliation” of sorts, but Gruen did not recant the “Aberrant Practices” document. This is covered in J. Lee Grady’s “Kansas City Churches Reconciled: Gruen Resigns After Announcement” Charisma. July 1993, Vol. 18 No. 12; p 54. Gruen made his statement regarding his personal situation on May 24, 1993 claiming, “My sin causing this resignation is not committing adultery, but committing divorce.”

    However, in ’95 there is another article which speaks to yet another mending, as referenced in J. Lee Grady’s article “Kansas City Churches Mend Rift” Charisma & Christian Life. September 1995, Vol. 21 No. 2; p 34.

    From my own article, I made the following statement quoting Grady who was quoting Bickle:

    Five years later [after the KCF/Gruen controversy], while maintaining “that most of Gruen’s accusations were untrue,” Bickle would admit, “God was disciplining us for pride and some wrong ideas.” He continued, “If it hadn’t have been Ernie Gruen, God would have used someone else. The message wouldn’t have gotten through to us if it had been kind. It had to be tough. We were wrong.”

    Once again, there was no recanting of the original “Aberrant Practices” document, except a rather peculiar exoneration of Paul Cain, which I wrote about in this two part article:

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/did-ernie-gruen-recant-his-%e2%80%98aberrant-practices%e2%80%99-document-regarding-kansas-city-fellowshipgrace-ministries/

    http://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/10/17/in-exonerating-paul-cain-is-the-%e2%80%98aberrant-practices%e2%80%99-document-invalidated/

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  302. The_Thinker

    Here is the website for this PDF (as of 3/18/14) http://www.banner.org.uk/kcp/Abberent%20Practises.pdf

  303. sadparent

    FYI (Greycoats, you’ve got SPAM cluttering the last 7 comments…)

    For the record: My son is out of IHOP, my family is restored, and anyone who is in favor of IHOP and Mike Bickle’s teachings is playing with fire. There is nothing but the occult intermingled into IHOP.

    As the old adage goes, you play with fire and you’re going to get burned.

  304. When Were Any Of These Apostles/Prophets:
    Beaten…
    Stoned & Left For Dead…
    Imprisoned…

    Why Don’t They Pull Their Gold Teeth Out, Sell Them, & Feed The Hungry…

    A Great Revival???
    How About A Great Falling Away…

    Stop Listening To Voices & Visions & Start Reading The WORD…

  305. The_Thinker

    Easier said than done @Sam Iam. Are you living that life? Why not? “Words are wind”

    The thought is right but its easier to say that others should be doing it when we ourselves are living in comfort!

    I’ve done the sacrificial life and “it ain’t easy!”

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  307. Gods child

    Wow, It goes on and on! I’ll bet satan could not be more proud. How many churches have yall devoured? How many more will you devour?

  308. Dave

    congratulations, sadparent! Grace and peace to you and your family!
    And let me just not beat around the bush with the harp and bowl thing. I was a songwriter/pianist/soundman/worship leader/youth leader/small group leader for our local Vineyard (which has since booted out its pastor, changed its name and allied with Bethel) when we were first exposed to IHOP. One of the pastors and some of her friends had gone to their conference and brought back a video to show everyone. They took over our Sunday night services with this.
    I had issues with it from the get go. Bickle was interrupting the songs in every line and shouting, which was very distracting- you could actually see Joann McFatter cut her eyes at him at one point. It felt like a performance, which, if you read the blog by Ariel, who was on the worship team there as an intern, is exactly what it was. It felt… off, somehow.
    Everyone who got involved in this were some of the rudest, most backstabbing, demanding people I’ve ever had the misfortune to work with. They definitely acted elitist and looked down on anyone who wasn’t doing what they were, acting as if no one in the history of our fellowship or the church at large had really worshiped God before now. They ended up banding together to run off the worship leader of the church, who wasn’t into what they were doing.
    Later, a team from IHOP came to our church, and it had that same feeling, of being off, as if they were saying the right things but whatever was behind it wasn’t on the level. Amazing music though, I’ve never heard the like anywhere else. The guitarist himself had a degree in piano and he and the keyboard player played instrumental music during the altar call that was as close to twentieth-century classical and improvised/rehearsed jazz as I have ever heard (he later told me, think Hindemith.)
    Later on i asked the (eventually ousted) pastor what their leadership team talked to him about afterwards, and he said they pretty much told him he ought to disaffiliate with the Vineyard and turn the church into an IHOP. He said that he had no leading from God to do such a thing. Pretty brazen, eh?
    This, kids, is from someone on the inside who watched it all go down. There is so much more I could say about what happened, names I could name, but these words are true, and hopefully they will suffice.

  309. Doralynn Kennedy

    I haven’t finished reading this, so the links to Ernie Gruen’s report may be linked to already. I’m not sure how all of this plays out. However, I just wanted to say that I found the report in the Wayback Machine. Here is the link for anyone interested in reading the entire report who has not yet been able to do so: http://web.archive.org/web/20080818225640/http://intotruth.org/kcp/Abberent%20Practises.pdf

    Also, good job on your research. This is important information for Christians. I hope it will save some people from the abuses of this movement. I have been interested in this for a while, but I recently watched End Times Eyewitness by Joel Richardson, and he surrounded himself with IHOP leaders in the documentary, including Mike Bickle. I didn’t know he associated with the movement, though I had noticed a certain elitism in some of the things Richardson wrote. Still, It was discouraging for me. I no longer feel I can trust Richardson’s teaching. It seems to me that if his discernment is this bad, it calls all of his teaching into question.

  310. David

    Possibly. But let what he says stand or fall on its own merits.

  311. I’m having trouble leaving this comment. I hope it doesn’t show up half a dozen times as a result.

    David, I disagree. Those we hold up as teachers, those we associate with and surround ourselves with voluntarily, says a lot about who we are and what we believe. How logical is it to say that we can’t judge what someone teaches based on the fact that they heavily quote known false teachers as authoritative? People who trust Richardson will trust Bickle by extension. The fact is, now that I am aware of his involvement with IHOP, it has clarified some of his teachings, especially his DVD on the kingdom. I have his books and all of his DVDs. In his DVD about the kingdom, he admits that he normally chooses not to talk about it. Fine, but why? Well, now I know why. But I never put two and two together because I didn’t know of his associations. I get a clearer picture of what some of his comments and lesser-known teachings mean in light of the IHOP connection. I couldn’t have learned these things without knowing who he stands with. I feel as if I were duped into accepting part of his message without fully understanding all of it — and that’s because he purposely withheld certain things. I would never have given him so much of my money (several hundred dollars) and so much of my time (hundreds of hours) if I had known of his IHOP doctrines and affiliation.

  312. David

    I’ve never heard of this guy, or anything he’s said. I do not subscribe to an automatic ‘guilt by association’ as your previous post implied. If he is heavily into quoting false teachers, then there’s the merits right there. If he is making odd, esoteric comments (as the second post implies), coming across as an elitist (which is against the plain meaning of Scripture) and avoiding a subject Jesus Himself spent a lot of time discussing, then those are also the merits and don’t seem to be a good report.
    Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, Randy Clark and anyone promoted by them as being of sound doctrine or partners in their network are automatically on my ‘skeptical’ list, but I don’t toss them out immediately until they get a fair hearing. It’s sad, as I met Randy shortly after the Toronto thing, and a few years later his approach, presentation and demeanor had profoundly changed. Bill, on the other hand, was rather slick in his presentation, but his praying for me was bizarre. I doubt I’d let him touch me again. Rick radiates weirdness, and not in a good way. I’ve met them all and had the opportunity to read their works and hear them speak. Mike I’ve only seen on video once, as I mention above.

  313. Doralynn Kennedy

    Thanks for the reply. I had never heard him quote them by name before, but now that I combine the few things I’ve heard him say about the kingdom with what IHOP teaches, I see clearer where he’s coming from. I only just learned of his association with IHOP while watching his documentary “End Times Eyewitness”. Most of the End Time “experts” he had on were IHOP leaders and missionaries: Mike Bickle, Allen Hood, Jesse Digges, Dalton Thomas. It was a shock for me. I should have waited to post until the shock had worn off. I trusted Richardson as mostly sound until just a few days ago. That was before realizing what some of his comments meant in light of his IHOP connections.

    He has written several books, including “Mideast Beast” and “The Islamic Antichrist”. He also co-authored “God’s War on Terror” with Walid Shoebat. He is a frequent contributor at WND on the subject of End Time prophecy. He has appeared on Glenn Beck’s show. He does a lot of radio and TV. He has appeared several times on a TV show that promotes people like Joyner and Todd Bentley. That disturbed me, but I figured he just wanted to get his message out.

  314. Lee

    I have no association with the Vineyard, IHOP, or Gruen, but I’ve been doing a lot of research about the work of the Holy Spirit through and beyond the Jesus movement. The best information I’ve come across that details the start of the events back in 1990 discussed in this post is:
    1) Bill Jackson’s “The Quest for the Radical Middle” (1999), in chapter 13.
    2) An article from Ministries Today magazine, Sept./Oct. 1990, by Lee Grady: “Resolving the Kansas City Prophecy Controversy.”
    3) This analysis of the entire situation: https://notunlikelee.wordpress.com/2011/10/03/did-ernie-gruen-recant-his-%E2%80%98aberrant-practices%E2%80%99-document-regarding-kansas-city-fellowshipgrace-ministries/.

    With regard to Gruen’s point 6 in this post: (“6. Do you think that John Wimber’s covering addressed the problems you spoke of in your report?
    However, before Wimber died, he phoned me and said “I was right all the time in the ‘Aberrant Document’ and that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickle.” The proof that this phone call occurred is that at this point KCF quit calling themselves “Metro-Vineyard,” and removed themselves from his covering.”)

    A private phone call cannot be corroborated. And that KCF changed their name is certainly not “proof” that the Gruen-Wimber phone call occurred; it is merely coincidence.

  315. Ernie Gruen ran off to Florida with his church secretary shortly after this controversy with Mike Bickel. Ernie had been counseled by his churches leadership on at least two other occasions about similar incidents involving a church secretaries. I used to be active in Full Faith Church of Love’s Inner City Ministry and was told about the counseling by the wife of an inner city pastor. Initially Ernie embraced Mike Bickell’s Church and only after he received reports of failed prophecies and healings did he renounce Mike Bickel. I thank God that He delivered me from Pentecostalism and following men instead of Christ. Thee was plenty of talk of the power of the Holy Spirit working at Full Faith but I saw very little of it in action in people’s lives.

  316. Ita

    Phew! Just read through about 98% of this blog. Amazing. Well, I’ll say this mostly for the benefit of neutral or confused bystanders: UNDERSTAND that the issues here are mainly driven by:-
    1. Doctrinal disagreement on bible interpretation (the website authors especially do not hold unto certain meanings held by the objects of their attack-Mike Bickle, Bob Jones,etc).
    2. Wounded people who have been truly hurt in some form by people who believe in line with the Bickles and Co of the church body.
    3. Wounded (in pride mostly) people who got what they deserved e.g. shape up or ship out, properly or wrongly dispensed.

    I’ve known the Lord for at least 27 years and this much I have concluded:
    1. A man’s enemy’s shall be they of his own household.
    2. If they called the Master of the Beelzebub, be assured they will call his servants. (So, though you may rightly identify the devil and his work at times, Jesus also prophesied that it is guaranteed that His true servants would also be called the same. I guess what we are called doesnt matter that much, eh?)
    3. Bickle and Co operate in a spirit as far removed from the Greycoats and Gruens of the church world that, it would be ludicrous to think to get feedback from them to further defend themselves. I have operated that way growing in the Lord and I assure you, it typically gives the impression that you are guilty when you say nothing to defend yourself. And sometimes I had zero guilt at all in the particular event and kept quiet to protect my attacker. (You may not be aware, but Bob Jones permitted his foibles to be discussed fully so others would learn from them. And in terms of actually helping people out, he did tons more when he returned to ministry after a 7 year hiatus. His end was better than his beginning.)
    4. The good fruit that has grown from the trees (servants of God) you smear on this blog are reaped worldwide. Joyner, Bickle, Jones, John Paul Jackson, etc, are blessing and liberating millions around the world as we speak! Closer relationships with God that can never arise from following the options out there! Give up. Your culture of disrespect especially hampers you (I’m no pushover, so dont think for second I grovel before any BUT many Americans typically take dishonour to the max. Not your fault in a way but your bible should trump your upbringing. (One downside of democracy gone-off-the-rails.)
    5. It is possible to disagree on certain doctrinal issues absolutely while still walking together. I assure you, the apostles didnt agree with all Jesus said before his crucifixion. (By the way, I learnt a lot of that from the Bickles and Joyners: on a need to hold opinions humbly and leave room for any correction/adjustment God may bring. Nothing like the absolute certaintly most of the Greycoats have on all things eschatological (futuristic) resulting in their thunderous defense of TRUTH. ( I wonder who is really elitist?)

    Don’t scoff at the warning by James/Buddy Sheet. Weakness, sickness and ‘sleep’ are the fruit of not discerning/judging the body rightly and you will be surprised at how many problems are caused by that within. (You could try something, if you just might be un-okay here: ask God to forgive you if you have hurt the body by being…well…what you guys do here. Then talk to God about some of the weakness and sickness you have been experiencing. You’ve got nothing to lose so why not take a shot? If that’s too much of a stretch for you, ASK God to show you where you might be missing it. That’s what I do when I feel frustrated with leadership.
    God help us all,
    A Brother, from Africa.

  317. Ita

    An excerpt from an article I copied years ago called The Ultimate Plan written by Rick Joyner and telling in some detail matters relating to Bob Jones. This was published a good while before he died on 14 February 2014. If you want the whole article which contains more facts and Bible authority for the points made, please send me an email address and I can forward it to you. I am unable to find it online anymore, if someone else can, please send me the link.

    “THE BOB JONES SAGA
    When the chronicles of heaven are read on that great Judgment Day, I am convinced that Bob Jones, a prophet from Independence, Missouri, will be honored as one who helped greatly to prepare the last day ministry of the church. From one end of the earth to the other I have met people who claim that a word from Bob Jones changed their life, or set them on the course to the ministry they are now in. But like the apostle Peter, Bob’s life has been a course of extraordinary spiritual accomplishments, followed by humiliating mistakes. Both his accomplishments and his mistakes are important for us to understand if we are to be prepared for what is coming.
    Right after the Lord said to Peter, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven” (Matthew 16:17), the Lord gave him the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Then the very next thing that He said to Peter was, “Get behind Me, Satan!” (verse 23). Right after Peter received a word straight from the Father, he received one straight from the enemy. Even though Peter would fall hard at times, he would get up and keep going. Therefore, even after his mistakes, the Lord did not take the keys to the kingdom away from him. In spite of his flaws, Peter, who would get out of the boat to walk on water, was the disciple most likely to use the keys to open the doors.
    With Bob Jones we have a similar dilemma. You cannot be around Bob very long without realizing that he is receiving revelation straight from the Father. Like Peter, he has also succumbed to some of the enemy’s most destructive traps. Even so, Bob keeps getting back up, dusts himself off, and like the “Energizer Bunny,” he keeps going, and going, and going.
    KEY TO THE KINGDOM
    Bob obviously does have some of the keys to the kingdom. He walks in a spiritual realm that is in many ways unlike anyone I have ever met. It is real and it is God. However, Bob does not just have some of the keys to the kingdom—he represents one of them. He will be either a stepping stone or stumbling block to the kind of prophetic authority that we must have to accomplish our mission in the last days.
    God does not tempt us, but He does test us. His tests are given for the purpose of qualifying us for promotions to the next grade, to give us more spiritual authority. Bob Jones is a test that many of us will have to pass before we can go on. Others may not have to pass the test with Bob Jones, but they will be given similar vessels, or situations, that they will have to learn to properly deal with before they, too, can go further.
    Is this biblical? Yes. This is the same kind of test that the Galatians had to pass to receive Paul (see Galatians 4:13-14). This is not to imply that Bob Jones is on the level of Paul the apostle, but the Lord often makes His vessels a test that will separate those who really love the truth from those who judge by appearances. Jonah was also such a vessel, as were many of the other prophets in Scripture. We now esteem Isaiah, but how many of us would have identified ourselves with a prophet who went around naked for three and a half years? How many of us would have asked John the Baptist over for Sunday dinner? Would you have wanted to live next door to Hosea and his harlot wife? How many of us, had we been those with great religious influence, would really have been open to listen to a carpenter from Nazareth? In fact, almost all of God’s vessels will be a major test for the flesh, and those who trust in the arm of the flesh will not pass this test.
    HIGHLIGHTS
    Bob Jones’ prophetic revelation is the most extraordinary I have ever witnessed. His prophetic gifts are of true biblical stature. A number of times Bob has told me the names of people that I was going to meet, and many other details about them. He has told me details about meetings which I was going to attend months, and in one case, years before they were even scheduled. He has called me to tell me the dream or vision that I had, and then interpreted it. He prophesied the birth of our third child two years before, including the day she would be born and her weight, accurately. Twice he has told me of visitations from the Lord that I was to receive, and the commission that was coming with it, along with the time and place that it would happen. I have heard him prophesy a number of national and international events, and natural disasters, with astonishing detail and accuracy. I have not personally witnessed the authority over demons, or the gifts of healings and miracles, following any other person like they do Bob. This is not to say that they don’t, but I have not witnessed it.
    Even more important than the signs that follow his life is that when Bob comes to a church or city almost every person he encounters is left functioning on a higher spiritual level. He stirs up the gifts in others. He does it in such a way that imparts faith in God, not just His gifts. He will patiently spend hours a day ministering to individuals, not distinguishing between the high and the lowly, the famous or the infamous. The love of God so exudes from him that he makes everyone feel like the most important person in the world. Children adore him like he does them. He can spend a few minutes with a child and impart such a zeal for God that it can carry them for years above the turbulence of youth.
    THE LOWLIGHTS
    Like many prophetic people, Bob has been deeply wounded by rejection and misunderstanding. At times he has allowed the rejection to turn into bitterness, and bitterness will always defile. Bitterness is spiritual madness. For a time Bob allowed bitterness to drive him to what he himself called “spiritual insanity.” The greater the anointing and spiritual authority that one walks in, the greater the potential fall and deception that they can suffer if they give themselves over to sin. Bob fell to some of the lowest levels of deception and sin. To his credit, he asked me to tell the whole story without holding anything back, knowing that it could further hurt his ministry or reputation, but being even more concerned that it could help save others from falling to the same traps.
    In the late 1980s, Bob Jones and the Kansas City Fellowship came under one of the most ruthless attacks of the accuser I have ever witnessed. As is the case with most “attackers,” their accuser was hiding serious sin in his own life. Bob knew it, and other prophetic people knew. Even so, the leaders of KCF (now Metro Vineyard Fellowship), determined to use this trial to humble themselves before God to seek more of His grace. They did not defend themselves against the slander and false accusations, but rather searched the accusations for any degree of truth so that they could publicly repent of them. When years later the sins of their accuser were publicly revealed, the Metro Vineyard church did not gloat, but the leaders and the people wept in sincere remorse at the fall of a brother, knowing that many more Christians would be wounded. After hearing this I heard one man remark, “There really are some true Christians in the church!”
    In the heat of the attack, Bob was disciplined for some of the mistakes that he had made, and his tendency to be too loose in both sharing and applying sensitive prophetic information. Bob accepted this relatively well until he felt that no one had properly defended him against the false accusations and slander. His rejection turned to bitterness and resentment. Defilement soon followed. Bob then began to rationalize that if his accuser could get away with adultery, with seemingly no repercussions, he could mess around a little and get away with it. Darkness then overtook him like a flood. He even used his extraordinary prophetic gifts to manipulate a mother and daughter that he was counselling. Serious sexual misconduct followed. Though it stopped short of adultery, in Bob’s own words, what was done was no less serious, and a woman and her daughter had been deeply wounded.
    THE DELUSIONS OF POWER
    Months before his fall Bob had called me asking for help. He had prayed for a spirit of lust to be broken off of a well-known evangelist, but he had done this without permission from the Lord. In Bob’s words, when he did this it “jumped on” him, and he could not shake it. I had witnessed Bob cast out many powerful demons that others could not handle. I just could not imagine any demon staying around him for very long, so I brushed off his request for help. Several times over the next few months Bob called me for help, and each time I tried to encourage him that no demon could stay close to him long. The next time I saw Bob I was shocked by the power of the spirit I saw oppressing him. I did not want to make the same mistake that he had by trying to take authority over something that powerful alone, so I found Mahesh Chavda, and we prayed together for it to be broken off of him. It departed and Bob changed before our eyes.
    When it later surfaced just how far Bob had fallen into sexual misconduct, I was grieved over how I had let him down when he had cried out for help. I had been overly awed by Bob’s gifts and spiritual authority over demons. Since then I have come to understand that the greater the anointing, the greater the blind spots can also be. Even the greatest man of God is fallible, and if we ever think that we cannot fall we have probably already begun to.
    I was not the only one to make a mistake with Bob during this time, or after it. There have been reactions and over-reactions, but in those trying times I was surprised that the situation was handled as well as it was. Even so, a number of us were shown last December that until the situation with Bob Jones was properly resolved, which includes his full restoration to his proper place in the church, we ourselves would go no further. In many ways, the lessons learned from this whole situation are essential for us to understand before the Lord can endorse us with any more anointing or authority.
    What Bob did was inexcusable, and he cannot shift the blame to anyone else for his own sins. God does not forgive excuses; He forgives sins. In Bob’s own words he fell into the depths of spiritual delusion and carnal corruption. He does not want to hide it, but rather wants to use it as an example to help prevent others from making the same mistakes. This is both very noble, and very important. One reason why the Lord has placed Bob as a test to many is that he represents the condition of not only many prophetic people, but to some degree, the church as a whole. By learning how to heal, restore, and protect Bob we will learn what it will take to heal, restore, and protect multitudes who have fallen to different aspects of the same problems.”

  318. Strong delusion…

  319. David

    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

  320. Ita Udoh

    Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees who were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
    Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If you were blind, you should have no sin: but now you say, We see; therefore your sin remains.

  321. Pingback: What is the Apostolic-Prophetic Movement (APM)? (A Summary of Bob, Bickle, Wagner and Wimber) | churchwatch central

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