This is something that we had just stumbled upon, and really ended up being a task that nobody (except God) had planned for.
Shortly after this blog was started, I was doing some research online about Mike Bickle. Then I stumbled upon the Wikipedia page that was made about Mike Bickle. On it, a man named Ernie Gruen was mentioned as a critic of Bickle, but then the site said that Gruen had recanted his critiques and allegedly said that he was “deceived and a deceiver”. That made me a little more curious about the situation. In the early 80’s Ernie Gruen wrote a report warning others about the abuses of Mike Bickle and the Kansas City Prophets. If you’ve never heard of the Kansas City Prophets, you may have heard of the International House of Prayer (I.H.O.P), Morningstar, “The Call” with Lou Engle, and OneThing. If you are familiar with these movements, they are all associated with the Kansas City Prophets. Now, simply google the Kansas City Prophets, and see for yourself who they are, and what they do. Ernie Gruen is not the only man to confront the false teachings (and false hope) that these men dish out. Other more well-known men are Dr. John Macarthur who wrote “Charismatic Chaos”, and Hank Hanegraff with his book “Counterfeit Revival”. As I fished around on the internet, I couldn’t find much on Mr. Gruen, so of course this got even more interesting. Then, sure enough. I find Ernie Gruen himself. I found his website, and his e-mail is plastered right there on the home page. Apparently many others who have found confirmation with their own convictions concerning the 3rd wave charismatic movement in the Ernie Gruen Report have already contacted him and gotten questions answered about the situation by the man himself. Since I had really only known about Ernie’s report for a few days, I wasn’t sure how I could best use my opportunity to correspond with him. So the following happened. Here is a compilation of all the materials that have developed since the saga began.
Blog #1- The Infamous Ernie Gruen Report. January, 18th 2008.
The Ernie Gruen report is 233 pages full of info from financial issues to examples of abusive prophecy.
This letter is long, and Ernie is a Christian, and I can’t exactly pinpoint all of his doctrinal beliefs, but this document, by far is a major blemish on the “Kansas City prophets” record.
Also, if Ernie did in fact say that he was wrong in this report, the documentation still remains of personal testimonies, and evidence of edited tapes. I haven’t read the entire document, but what I have read doesn’t surprise me, and also, Ernie isn’t the only guy to have reported these sort of things within the movement.
So, here I gladly present perhaps the best document concerning Mike Bickle and his entourage’s history.
If you have the time, and the paper, you should print this out. It is also available for download
The people who published the report to their website don’t seem to be keeping the site up anymore. I tried to find out info on them and their beliefs but was unable to. So I can’t say if I do, or don’t endorse them.
If Ernie returns by e-mail, I will post the response.
Blog #2- BIG UPDATE, ERNIE GRUEN’S RESPONSE TO MY E-MAIL.- January 18th, 2008
Alright, everyone knows that I found this statement about Ernie Gruen on
Mike Bickle’s wikipedia page:
“Bickle’s ministry has historically been very controversial, even within the charismatic movement. This controversy was heightened when charismatic pastor Ernie Gruen released a report in 1990 documenting what he considered to be many aberrant practices in Kansas City. Ernie Gruen wrote a citywide letter saying that he was sorry for writing what had come to be known as the Ernie Gruen Report. In an open letter in the early 1990s Gruen referred to himself as deceived and a deceiver.”
On a side note this wikipedia page is also linked off of the International House Of Prayer’s wikipedia page. So that sort of tells me that both links were made by IHOP.
So, I found Ernie Gruen’s E-mail, and sent the following:
Hello Brother, Grace and Peace to you.
I have been researching the “Kansas City Prophets” because half of my church split and moved to the “International House of Prayer” where Mike Bickle is the pastor. I came across something known as the “Ernie Gruen Report” at this website:
The site claims that you “wrote a citywide letter saying that he was sorry for writing what had come to be known as the Ernie Gruen Report. In an open letter in the early 1990s Gruen referred to himself as deceived and a deceiver.”
The site did not provide documentation of your alleged words. So I want to ask if you really did say you were sorry for the letter, and perhaps if there is still a chance of me reading the letter if it exists.
I do not wish to stir up any controversy or anything.
God bless you, and your ministry.
I am convinced that Bob Jones has a familiar spirit, a demon of divination, and is into the occult. He is just absolutely weird. ACTS 16;16-18Acts 16:16–Now it happened, as we went to prayer,that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us,
who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling.
17 This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying,
“These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.”
18 And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit,
“I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.”
And he came out that very hour. NKJV
Also read Jeremiah 23:13-32
And if people don’t believe me, they can
e-mail Ernie themselves.
So it has been confirmed by the original source that the Infamous Ernie Gruen Report was never apologized for. And that whoever is keeping up Mike Bickle’s wikipedia page is either lying, or was lied to. There is no city-wide letter that Ernie Gruen wrote apologizing for the letter. None has ever turned up to substantiate the claim.
I.H.O.P is guilty until proven innocent.
Blog #3 More Answers From an Authority. January 27th, 2008- Posted by Natrimony
After Devin’s initial contact with Pastor Gruen I decided to follow his lead and e-mail him with some questions of my own. Pastor Gruen obliged my inquiry. His answers are short but comprehensive. I have reprinted my letter plus Pastor Gruen’s reply here in its entirety, without any editing. He also attached a warning against Bob Jones which is identical to the one he sent to Devin earlier reprinted on BIG UPDATE, ERNIE GRUEN’S RESPONSE TO MY E_MAIL. I did not include the attachment.
Also, Pastor Gruen has agreed to an interview with thegreycoats. Jarrod, Devin, and I are in the process of compiling questions which we hope to have a transcript of answers to sometime in the near future. We hope the answers will be refreshingly radical in their reformative effect on those who have bought into the IHOP and modern prophetic movements. But, in the meantime, this update must suffice for everyone tracking the relevance of The Infamous Ernie Gruen Report.
Hello Pastor Gruen,
My friend Devin recently e-mailed you in reference to your report detailing aberrant practises in the Kansas City Fellowship during the late ’80’s and early 90’s. I have also come across an article on the blog “Thoughts and Ponderings” by someone who claims to be your grandson. He says that, “To sum up all of this, I would like to close with a conversation I had with my grandfather, Ernie Gruen. After being troubled by all that I have read about Mike Bickle, IHOP, and KCF, I finally confronted the man who confronted Mike Bickle. My grandfather said that he and Mike Bickle are now on good terms and he actually supports Mike’s ministry. My grandfather went on to say that they are friends but the person he did have a problem with is Bob Jones.”
I’m sure you’ve been through a nightmare of attack in regard to your forthrightness and Berean spirit. And, I would not be surprised if you were so sick of dealing with this issue that you do not respond to this. But my conscience requires me to ask: Are you really on good terms with Mike Bickle now and in support of his ministry? Have you ever written an open letter recanting your original report? Your leadership and advice is vital to my own spiritual struggle with the entity known as IHOP and its leader Mike Bickle. Thank you for publishing your report and I hope to hear from you soon.
Grace and Peace,
Pastor Gruen replied with:
1. I have no animosity to Mike, but could not support his ministry.
2. My grandson since putting that on the internet has totally left Ihop, and will have nothing to do with it.
3. I never sent a letter repudiated the original document–that is a total lie. The document was and is true.
4. See attachment.
That’s it ya’ll, until we get more.
Blog #4 Recant??? January 30th, 2008 – Posted by thegreycoats
As you all know the Grey coats have been in contact with pastor Ernie Gruen . He is the author of a quite lengthy quite infamous report . We have asked the pastor about the rumors of his alleged recantation of this report in the form of a city wide letter and or public apology of any kind. The Grey coats have also requested an interview with pastor Gruen to help clarify the issue because there seems to be some disagreement on the truth of these matters. Did Gruen recant? Did he apologize for his report? Where are these rumors coming from ? Here is a brief taste of what is to come in the near future as we go and get the truth straight from the proverbial horses mouth.
It has been spread around Kansas City and on the Internet that I sent out a letter saying that I was deceived and that I had retracted the document “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship (Grace Fellowship). They have been known by many names in the KC area, switching elders and church names on a regular basis. For a while they were known as Metro Vineyard. (Interesting John Wimber told me that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickle, because he discovered that I was correct in the “Aberrant” document.)
I sent out no such letter; I issued no retraction; I did not issue an apology!
Statements asserting the above are total malicious lies!
The “Aberrant” document was and is exactly the truth of what happened. It was accumulated from tapes purchased from Bickel’s own ministry. The report is genuine!
Who originated these lies? I have no idea.
Who decided to spread these lies on the Internet and throughout KC? I do not know.
But it is Mike’s responsibility to see that these lies are repudiated by him and also publicly at I-Hop. Since it purportedly is regularly stated to newcomers to I-Hop. Of course it is to Bickel’s advantage to keep THE LIE going to increase his numbers and growth of his ministry.
Pastor Ernie Gruen
As you can see Pastor Gruen is adamant in his statements that he did not recant or apologize. This begs the question, who has spread this rumor? Why have they lied about this man? And my personal favorite: Why does Mike Bickle’s wikepedia page keep getting re-edited every time we correct the error about Pastor Gruen’s report ? (interestingly enough it doesn’t even mention Pastor Gruen any more hmmmm…) The answers to these questions are out there somewhere . Maybe we will find a few as time goes by.
–Addendum: Pastor Gruen’s grandson Grant has reprinted this letter on his blog here:
This reprint does support source authenticity. Namely, that we’re not just making all of this stuff up.
In the midst of all this, discussions in the comment sections were happening about trying to interview Mr. Gruen. We wrote up some questions, and sent them with a prayer, and a few weeks later the questions came back answered. Here is that post.
Blog #5 The Much Awaited Interview with Ernie Gruen, February 17th 2008
They will not quit teaching any doctrine that makes them “elitist”.
4. Did you truly exonerate Paul Cain from all your previous accusations, if so would you mind telling us what changed your mind?
Mike Bickle himself exposed and discredited him. http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel19.html
5. Did you really apologize to Mr. Bickle for the accusations you made in your report?
This fabrication that I apologized, spread by Mike Bickle and/or his I-hop staff, is a total lie. I never apologized to him–you do not apologize for exposing false prophets and telling the truth.
6. Do you think that John Wimber’s covering addressed the problems you spoke of in your report?
The elders of Full Faith Church agreed to stop sending out the “Aberrant Document” for two reasons: one, John Wimber said he would “clean up the mess at KCF” and provide oversight, and secondly to restore unity in the city. However, before Wimber died, he phoned me and said “I was right all the time in the ‘Aberrant Document’ and that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickle.” The proof that this phone call occurred is that at this point KCF quit calling themselves “Metro-Vineyard,” and removed themselves from his covering.
7. Do you think that the international house of prayer is spiritually dangerous, if so what concerns you the most?
Please read an excerpt from an e-mail I received this week, with the name withheld:
“Last year I attended an internship at the I.H.O.P. called “Fire in the Night” . . . We had a class called the “Prophetic History” class where in it we listened to audio tapes of Mike Bickle’s experiences in the super-natural realm and prophecies of Bob Jones, Paul Cain . . . After some meetings with the leadership there I decided to leave the program. I was led to the report you had written about the Kansas City Prophets and Mike Bickle exposing them for their lies. After reading this report I was even more disturbed because of its content. I took what I had read back to the leadership at I.H.O.P. and presented it to them asking them if this, “the report you wrote” was true?
They then told me that it was not true and that you had made a public apology to Mike and others for having written it. The leader I spoke to said he was there to witness these things taking place. I wasn’t sure if he was telling the truth so I wanted to ask you a couple of questions personally.”
I challenge Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staff to remove this so-called leader for telling a whopper of a lie!
1 Cor 3:11–For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ (NKJV)
Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs have built their entire foundation on two discredited false prophets.
8. If there was any advice you could give to someone who is considering worshipping at I.H.O.P. what would it be?
Thoroughly read and study these two documents and then pray and make your own decision:
a) The original “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship.
b) Paul Cain discredited by Mike Bickle:
9. Do you feel that the stand you took was worth it? Absolutely!
10. Why did you stop circulating the report? See answer in question #6.
Though Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs unethically look for any reason to slander me, the personal situation involving me occurred several years after the “Aberrant Document” was released. It had and has no relationship to the contents of the document or its release whatsoever.
Well, everyone, as you can see this is a big deal. If people who advocate men like Bob Jones, and Mike Bickle, and the International House of Prayer take this into consideration, a lot of pain, and knee jerk reactions will probably flare up. The purpose of this site is not to hurt you. We are here to call out some of the things that WE OURSELVES SAW within the movement. We still have many dear brothers and sisters in Christ that are involved in the numerous places associated with those mentioned in the posts. The same Messiah that saved us has saved them also. We know that there are many Christians within these ministries, so we aren’t necessarily attacking entire congregations or anything of that sort. We are simply asking for a formal response to what has been waged towards Mr. Bickle and his ministry.
The big issue here is that somebody started a rumor (that has been proven to be a lie thus far) that Ernie Gruen recanted. There have been people coming onto this site in the blogs saying that they have seen Gruen’s letter of recantation. Also saying that they themselves saw Mr. Gruen recant publicly. So far, when asked, NOBODY has produced any evidence of these other than their own testimony. Logically if this was as big of a deal as it has been known to be, then there would still be copies of the letter floating around.
People who work with the International House of Prayer have claimed that Ernie recanted.
Ernie says that he didn’t.
All we want to know, and want you to know, is who is telling the truth.
Decide for yourself.
Feel free to comment on this post, and also you can find all of the posts here in our archives if you wish to talk specifics.
In Christ, our Salvation,
The Grey coats team, Jarrod, Nathaniel, and Devin.